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Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Your post was good for a while, up until I had to read the above. I apologise in advance for the post that is coming.
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense - and I also have to question your historical account regarding the Irish movement and its influence on Catholicism.
Are you seriously trying to say you are closer to the Apostles than Traditionalists? Are you really trying to say that for some 1800 years nobody had “drunk deeply of the Spirit”? Are you seriously trying to call Traditional Catholics boring because they don’t buy into novelty and emotional outbursts?
With all respect, I think you live in a fantasy land if that’s how you see things. It’s a fantasy land of bias and complete disrespect for non-Charismatic Catholics.
I sit in Mass with a straight face because I am in awe. I don’t laugh at Father’s quip during the consecration because I am ashamed to think that we would be making jokes at the foot of the Cross. The Mass is an elevation of my soul to God. I am at my most joyful and happy when at Mass. I am more complete at Mass then when I am not.
I would rather look bored and asleep if it meant I was giving everything to God without the need for cheap thrills and novelties.
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vardaquinn
Guest
By and large, yes I’m saying most charismatics are living the New Testament faith of the Apostles more than traditionalists. I don’t want to make generalizations, because that’s not always the case. I am not saying that for the past 1800 years nobody has drunk deeply of the Spirit, and I am not even saying that traditionalists haven’t. I am not claiming that charismatics are more holy than traditionalist, because I don’t know the details of anybody’s spiritual life well enough to make such a statement. But many charismatics openly conform to the Apostolic model shown in Acts of the Apostles to a greater degree than many traditionalists in their practice of the faith. I am saying many traditionalists seem simply bored because they don’t seem very much interested in who they’re worshiping and don’t seem to have much energy (though appearances are deceiving, because I’m sure many traditionalists are interested). I’m not saying they have to be all emotional, but I am saying that they’re devotion and faith and the presence of God in them should show very clearly, and it seems to me many of them are “stifling the Spirit”.
You may be most joyful, but again it’s on an individualistic level. Just you and God, right? I am not calling for cheap thrills, I’m calling for an evident manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the upbuilding of the Church.
Why do people in churches seem like cheerful brainless tourists on a packaged tour of the Absolute? … Does anyone have the foggiest idea what sort of Power we so blandly invoke? … The churches are children playing on the floor with chemistry sets, mixing up a batch of TNT to kill a Sunday morning. It is madness to wear ladies’ straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should be wearing crash helmets. Ushers should issue life preservers and signal flares; they should lash us on to our pews. For the sleeping God may wake up some day and draw us out to where we can never return. - Anne Dillard
Don’t we know what’s going on in church? Don’t we know that we’re attending a meeting of spies plotting a revolution against the Prince of This World? Do we not know the great Lion of Judah, who sneaks into our churches in disguise to meet us there? - Peter Kreeft
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vardaquinn
Guest
Think of it in terms of Acts 19. If St. Paul were to visit our parishes, would he easily be able to see that we’ve received the Holy Spirit? If not, there’s a problem.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Alrighty then. I respectfully disagree, and think you’re attempting to play a trump card here that isn’t even in the deck so to speak. I can’t think of anything else to say to the rest of your post because to me it seemed by and large false or irrelevant.
If it brings you closer to Christ and spreading the Gospel, and if it conforms to Church law and rubrics, then who am I to impose anything on you? In humility I suggest you are misguided and that you should look into the deep well that is present in “traditional” Catholicism. I think you’re framing things the wrong way, and it’s something I personally would not be comfortable with because it doesn’t reek of Catholicism and it isn’t soaked in orthodoxy.
Oh, and give “traditionalists” a break.
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TrueLight
Guest
And what would make it apparent to him? People speaking in various tongues? People convulsing on the ground? People running around the Church building, as I have seen at a very prominent non-denominational Protestant megachurch in Manhattan?
It’s possible you are speaking out of frustration. I hope you don’t really mean the things you said in your previous posts about traditional Catholics.
It comes dangerously close to saying Charismatics are the true Catholics.
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Denise1957
Guest
Quote from the above post:
“I am not calling for cheap thrills, I’m calling for an evident manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the upbuilding of the Church.”
What you are calling for here has never been called for by the Catholic Church during Mass. The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary, not a meeting where everyone shows, by their behavior, supposed evident manifestation of the Holy Ghost. The Protestant Pentacostal denominations such as AoG and Oneness no doubt believe that an evident manifestation of the Holy Ghost needs to be shown at their Sunday services, but that’s not ever been the case in the Catholic Church for a Catholic Mass.
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Darran
Guest
May I give a more striking difference:
The Church that Christ founded:
youtube.com/watch?v=cPjcBl48dwU
The church that man founded:
youtube.com/watch?v=h8pWtpOWQ-k&feature=related#t=1m48s
Over my dead body will these two overlap.
The Church that Christ founded:
youtube.com/watch?v=cPjcBl48dwU
The church that man founded:
youtube.com/watch?v=h8pWtpOWQ-k&feature=related#t=1m48s
Over my dead body will these two overlap.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
And this my fellow CAF-er’s is what the problem is with this forum and this sub-forum in particular- everything is always to the EXTREME!
As for the first video- it’s a MOVIE- of course they are going to go all out! Even when the EF was the norm, how many people actually attended a Solemn High Mass every week? None of the people who I talked to who actually lived through the 1950’s, which seems to be, to some, the “golden age” of American Catholicism.
And the second, again, to the extreme. I have never seen anything like this at any Catholic Charismatice service I have ever been to, and I am not quite sure if this is even supposed to be a Catholic Mass, which would invalidate its use as an example.
I think that there is a balance that is missing from many of these charismatic vs. traditional threads. What works for one, may not work for another, but that does not mean either is wrong.
I have found that, for me, most often God works by inviting me to places that I would rather not go, usually out of fear of change, fear of being vulnerable, or fear of having to take a deep, hard look at the reality around me. And once I take that first step out of my “comfort zone”, God is there to lead me through to a greater understanding and awareness of His great love for us.
Isn’t that what it is really all about??
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vardaquinn
Guest
Well, as I said, I would call myself a traditional Catholic. Remember, I said I mostly disagree with the mentality of most “traditional Catholics”. I don’t think aspects of their mentality are at all traditional. And I don’t think there should be a conflict between charismatics and traditional catholics, and I know with myself and others (including priests) there isn’t one.
Well, certainly the charisms for one thing. People convulsing on the ground and running around the Church building are disruptions and ridiculous behavior I disapprove of, and certainly not a sign of the Holy Spirit. I would say in general an evident enthusiasm and participation that indicates very clearly that the people worshiping know Jesus, and are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Well, I don’t want to generalize. Insofar as charismatics genuinely follow what it truly means to be charismatic, then yes they are the true Catholics. I believe many traditionalists follow aspects of what it means to be charismatic, though I think many of them are unaware of it.
I should point out here that I disapprove strongly of the view of the Charismatic movement as being a denominational sort of thing one either joins or doesn’t join. It is neither it’s own spirituality nor should it be an entity unto itself. It shouldn’t exist at all, we should all be openly charismatic to begin with. Bl. John Paul II called the charismatic dimension an essential component to the nature of the Church. Meaning, where that’s missing, something essential is missing.
Indeed, may these never overlap. But that video does not present genuine charismatic worship, and it probably isn’t even Catholic. It is certainly unlike the Catholic charismatic worship I have seen and participated in.
Really? Go back and read where St. Paul talks about charisms in 1 Corinthians. You notice how it’s in a whole bigger discussion on the Mass and the liturgy? you notice how he says “when you gather together, someone has a tongue, another a prophecy, an inspired hymn, a song” etc.?
Don’t get me wrong, the focus should be on the sacrifice of the Mass, but in the course of our worship of the Holy Eucharist there should be evident manifestations of the presence of Holy Spirit. But in general, a simple sign that we are fully engaged in this worship and believe in it and know who we are worshiping. When people walk into our churches, they should be able to tell clearly that we believe what we say we do. Some charismatic manifestations are appropriate at Mass, some aren’t. Most aren’t currently allowed, except by special permission. I am speaking more in general and vaguely.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Actually you know what, generally the High Mass was avoided like the plague! See my above post on the influence of Irish culture. It was considered to Protestant and too English, too fancy.
If only all our liturgies were as epic and amazing and beautiful as that.
To be clear, **I support many of the practices of traditional Catholics, such as a proper and dignified and beautiful liturgies, and the use of Latin and chant, etc. I do not support the mentality and attitude of many traditional Catholics, which I don’t think is traditional. I support some practices of charismatics, which I think if combined with the beauty and dignity of a traditional liturgy would take the world by storm, and I fully support the mentality of the charismatic movement in regards to the charismatic dimension of Christianity. **
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Heuchler
Guest
This is what I see in every one of these threads. The charismatics are wonderful and are like the apostles because they speak tongues, laugh, fall, and cry uncontrollably but it’s ok because it’s from the Holy Spirit. The Bible outlines the Charisms in 1 Corinthians
You hardly ever find interpretations, miracles, and prophecy because these things can be disproven. Instead you find the gifts that are often found inside of Pentacostal churches. While I am not a traditionalist (as I was born after Vatican 2 and have never been to a mass in latin), I have a lot more respect for the reverence and awe that I see from them. I imagine that if I walked in on a Traditionalist mass I would be amazed. If I walked in and saw a group of people yelling out in different languages, falling down, laughing, and crying all at once I would be convinced you were all insane. Paul says this in 1 corinthians
He also is putting an emphasis on prophecy, if prophecy is as important for believers as Paul sates, why isn’t that the main proponent instead of Tongues. Paul also said
Seeing as there is hardly ever an interpreter why isn’t tongues reserved for a quite place at home instead of at charismatic meetings where everyone can see their “gifts”
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Denise1957
Guest
Quote from the above post:
“You notice how he says “when you gather together, someone has a tongue, another a prophecy, an inspired hymn, a song” etc.”
St. Paul also said that women shouldn’t speak in Church, yet it isn’t Church teaching that women should not speak in Church. If it was, that would present a difficulty for CCR advocates.
Again it is not and has not been a teaching of the Church that Catholics are to show evident manifestations of the Holy Ghost at Mass. It is about the Holy sacrifice of Calvary, not a showing of how “spiritual” a Catholic is. We should adopt the attitude of Our Blessed Mother, St. John, and St. Mary Magdalene who were at the foot of the Cross when Our Lord suffered His Passion and death. The three who were at the foot of the Cross did not try to show how “spiritual” they were. It wasn’t about “them,” it was about what Our Lord did for us at Calvary. Perhaps you believe that Our Blessed Mother, St. John and St. Mary Magdalene should have been happy-clappy, joyful, and whooping it up at the foot of the Cross as they watched Our Lord suffer and die.
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vardaquinn
Guest
I see in every one of these threads almost no understanding of what the charismatics are actually claiming. What makes charismatics like the Apostles is their experience of Pentecost manifested by the biblical charisms - which falling, laughing and crying aren’t numbered among, though tongues is.
Well, I guess you hardly find these. I’ve heard of plenty of miracles and I’ve heard prophecies before. I’ve never heard an interpretation myself, but I know other who have.
It is in many places.
How about at both? It’s use is for the worship of God. Let’s get together and worship God in the Holy Spirit in the words He gives us. Let’s do this as often as we can.
You’ve probably never been to a good solid orthodox charismatic prayer meeting. I have, and I see far more awe for God and far more love present than I have at any of the traditional Latin Masses I’ve been to put together.
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vardaquinn
Guest
No, there should be balance. There are times for expressing intense joy and the wondrous glory of God in our worship during the Mass, and also times for silent adoration and expressions of the great sorrow of the Passion. We should try to practice what we believe, to bring others to the faith. What you see in most churches are people who are, for all appearances anyway, bored to death and half asleep, and not participating, and not there to adore God.
We shouldn’t see a crowd of sleeping Apostles failing to keep stay up with Our Lord, or a bunch of frightened Christians hiding from the dangers of the world, but a bunch of saints adoring and loving God with their whole heart, mind, soul, and strength, men and women who have experienced the mercy of God and the grace of Pentecost, men and women alive with the Holy Spirit. This should be evident in all of our churches, but rather what we see is more and more of the former.
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Will_S
Guest
There’s no point talking about ‘was’. How about talking instead of ‘is’:
youtube.com/watch?v=d6S1GEh_xOw
youtube.com/watch?v=nvOtwn_-S0I
youtube.com/watch?v=mRbWicjByJk
youtube.com/watch?v=2cjWGxCq54U
youtube.com/watch?v=TuxUhWCbF9w
youtube.com/watch?v=AgSYLo7Tq8Q
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Denise1957
Guest
It isn’t right for you to say that Catholics in most churches are bored to death, half asleep, not participating, and not there to adore God. It’s a very anti-Catholic thing to say, really.
:nope:
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Inquiringperson
Guest
You seem to be trying to state your opinion as a fact. I can say that TLM’s have more love for God because it has sacred silence while Charismatic Liturgies are louder. But that isn’t fact.
Edit: Yes, I have been in an orthodox charismatic meeting. Yes, it’s reverent.
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Heuchler
Guest
The scriptures have indicated, as I have just shown, that if there are to be tongues there needs to be an interpreter. If there is no interpreter then pray to God in secret that way you aren’t like the phariseess who prayed aloud because of pride. The Holy Spirit guides us in all our prayers and can certainly guide worship in the English language.
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guanophore
Guest
You seem to be confused. The Charismatic gifts of the HS were given to the Catholic Church at Pentecost. The reason they are written about in the New Testament is because they were practiced in the Catholic Church. The NT is a Catholic book!
The Church has the authority to emphasize certain teachings and practices to meet the needs of the faithul. For example, there was a demand at one time that the faithful had to recieve under both species, or communion was not valid. The Church responded to this by withholding the cup from the laity to emphasize that both species contain in fulness the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
Would we say that the Church “had it all wrong” before and after that time,when both the species were offered? I think not.
I am not sure what your “1921” date is referencing, but the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church is traced to the Duquesne weekend. in 1967.
I don’t see how. These ecclesial communities are, according to the Teaching of the Church, deficient. They are outside the Apostolic succession, and are rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff. We are called upon to leave the weeds and the wheat together until the harvest. It is not for us to go about pulling up weeds that have sprouted. We are responsible for our own house, and that Catholics obey the Teaching of the Church.
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