Differences between the Traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics

[Denise1957]

Spot on Denise.

Thanks, Darren.

 

[guanophore]

Catholic Charismatic Renewal was originally called Catholic Pentacostalism. The original name is indicative of its origins having been founded in the Protestant Pentacostal denominations. the name was later changed to differentiate between Catholic and Protestant Penatacostals.

I can see what you are saying, but I think we will both agree that Pentecost did not originate with Pentecostal Protestants, since they came along about 1900 years after Pentecost came to the Catholic Church.

Here’s a good article, written by a convert to Catholicism. He’s a former Pentacostal who graduated from an Assemlies of God college. The article is titled, “How I led Catholics out of the Church.” The article describes the techniques that he used to take Catholics away from their Catholic faith. Here’s step 1:

Step 1.:

Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting.

Step 2:

Give thier conversion a Protestant interpretation.

He goes on to say that all the Catholics who had a conversion experience in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith. He says that it is really necessary for Catholics to have a firm grasp of the faith in order to keep this from happening.

Link to article:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0057.html

This certainly describes what happened to me.

I knew very little about my faith when the Baptists got ahold of me.

Some here will say that CCR did not have its start in Protestantism, but most advocates of CCR will admit that it did have its start in the Protestant Pentacostal denominations.

I think people that claim this have not read the facts. There were no Protestants present in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel that night in Duquesne when the Spirit fell upon those gathered in adoration.

And many Catholics have left the Catholic Church as a result. So, IMO, the bottom line is that in order to keep Catholics from embracing Protestant practices, or leaving the Church, is to make sure that they have a good grasp of the faith, which is what traditional Catholicism is all about. And no, I’m not saying that a traditional Catholic has to attend a TLM in order to be traditional.

This is well said, Denise. Once Catholics are properly catechized, they will know that all the gifts of Pentecost are the birthright of the Catholic Church, and will not go selling that birthright for a bowl of porridge.

 

[Denise1957]

I can see what you are saying, but I think we will both agree that Pentecost did not originate with Pentecostal Protestants, since they came along about 1900 years after Pentecost came to the Catholic Church.

This certainly describes what happened to me.

I knew very little about my faith when the Baptists got ahold of me.

I think people that claim this have not read the facts. There were no Protestants present in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel that night in Duquesne when the Spirit fell upon those gathered in adoration.

This is well said, Denise. Once Catholics are properly catechized, they will know that all the gifts of Pentecost are the birthright of the Catholic Church, and will not go selling that birthright for a bowl of porridge.

I appreciate your honesty about your personal situation with the Baptists. I myself knew nothing about Catholicsm when I was growing up, and haing been only nominally Protestant, I allowed myself to be sucked into the strange world of the New-Age movement. I’m now quite content with the traditional teachings of the Church regarding graces of the Holy Ghost. I’m confident that He works in my life without seeking after or being “open” to receiving extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues or prophesy. If we can respond to the ordinary graces given us by the Holy Ghost so that we can effectively maintain our station in life, we can also help others around us. No need to go seeking after speaking in tongues or prophesy to do this.

Regarding the Duquesne situation, there are different accounts and interpretations of this. You yourself have previously posted links that have included information that CCR had its start from the Protestant Pentacostal denominations.

As has been mentioned many times, it is not a part of Catholic Church teaching that Catholics are to seek after or intentionally “be open” to receiving extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues or prophesy.

I do appreciate your contribution on these threads, guanophore. I’m a little more sympathetic to Charismatics than I used to be. However, I draw the line when advocates of CCR say that all Catholics have to be open to the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues or prophesy, and that Charismatic liturgy (if it can be called that) should be incorporated into the TLM. I know that it will not be incorporated into the TLM that I attend.

 

[vardaquinn]

As has been mentioned many times, it is not a part of Catholic Church teaching that Catholics are to seek after or intentionally “be open” to receiving extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues or prophesy.

“Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” 1 Cor 14:1

“Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy.” 1 Cor 14:5

If we can respond to the ordinary graces given us by the Holy Ghost so that we can effectively maintain our station in life, we can also help others around us. No need to go seeking after speaking in tongues or prophesy to do this.

But why wouldn’t you, if these gifts are being offered? I will repeat what I have always said: there is nothing to be gained from turning AWAY from these gifts. It is simply useless to say “I don’t want that”. Why not? Why not take advantage of everything to be of service to the Church and the will of God and to be filled with more of His grace? Especially when the Bible tells you to?

 

[Denise1957]

“Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” 1 Cor 14:1

“Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy.” 1 Cor 14:5

But why wouldn’t you, if these gifts are being offered? I will repeat what I have always said: there is nothing to be gained from turning AWAY from these gifts. It is simply useless to say “I don’t want that”. Why not? Why not take advantage of everything to be of service to the Church and the will of God and to be filled with more of His grace? Especially when the Bible tells you to?

Vardaquinn, only the Catholic Church has the God-given right to interpret scripture. And the Catholic Church does not teach that we are to seek or be intentionally open to speaking in tongues and prophesy. You and others may believe that you have a right to interpret scripture in such a way that everyone is supposed to believe your interpretation, and you wouldn’t be the first to do so. Non-Catholics often feel they have a right to its interpretation.

If I can find a way to put you on “ignore” I will do so, since you are so obsessive and unreasonable in your views (which includes anti-Catholic views, IMO). And I also find it difficult to remain charitable with your posts here, which is my own fault, but still…

 

[Darran]

I can appreciate your reverence for the Sacred Body of the Lord. However, taking communion in the hand is not a sacriledge. It was the practice of the early church, and can be done with as much reverence as taking it on the tongue. Saint Cyril of Jerusalem attests to this noble practice. Around 400 St. Cyril writes:

“When you approach, do not extend your hands with palms upward and fingers apart, but make your left hand a throne for your right hand, since the latter is to receive the King.”

Receiving Communion on the tongue developed in the Middle Ages out of fear that the sacred species would be desecrated in some way. However, I digress beyond the thread topic.

Some suggested reading

catholic-pages.com/mass/inhand.asp

Also, although Our Lady of the Roses isn’t currently approved (and I know very little about the apparitions to comment) this article only references them, so I’ll link it also.

tldm.org/news8/charismaticmovement.htm

 

[vardaquinn]

Vardaquinn, only the Catholic Church has the God-given right to interpret scripture. And the Catholic Church does not teach that we are to seek or be intentionally open to speaking in tongues and prophesy. You and others may believe that you have a right to interpret scripture in such a way that everyone is supposed to believe your interpretation, and you wouldn’t be the first to do so. Non-Catholics often feel they have a right to its interpretation.

If I can find a way to put you on “ignore” I will do so, since you are so obsessive and unreasonable in your views (which includes anti-Catholic views, IMO). And I also find it difficult to remain charitable with your posts here, which is my own fault, but still…

1. Only the Magisterium has the God-given ability to interpret scripture infallibly. Of course we can still interpret it. Why then would the Church tell us to read it? If it’s beyond our understanding or interpretation, then it is useless for us to read or to quote. St. Paul claims that “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice” (2 Timothy 3:16). I have a right to read the Scripture, and to study it, and to try and understand it - always keeping my interpretation in view with the Church’s doctrinal interpretation.

I acknowledge that my interpretation may be fallible, but I see nothing from the Church that contradicts me, and in fact quite the opposite. Your argument is merely a cop out - how else could you interpret “desire earnestly spiritual gifts, especially prophecy”? Is there any other way you could interpret it beyond: desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy?

1. I don’t see how that’s unreasonable. I want more of God and His gifts, and anything - small or little - that He offers that helps me grow in holiness I’m going to try and take advantage of. Certainly if the Church tells me to, as it does. I am sorry if I have seemed uncharitable, or have caused you to be uncharitable. That was never my intention.

 

[Darran]

1. Only the Magisterium has the God-given ability to interpret scripture infallibly. Of course we can still interpret it. Why then would the Church tell us to read it? If it’s beyond our understanding or interpretation, then it is useless for us to read or to quote. St. Paul claims that “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice” (2 Timothy 3:16). I have a right to read the Scripture, and to study it, and to try and understand it - always keeping my interpretation in view with the Church’s doctrinal interpretation.

I acknowledge that my interpretation may be fallible, but I see nothing from the Church that contradicts me, and in fact quite the opposite. Your argument is merely a cop out - how else could you interpret “desire earnestly spiritual gifts, especially prophecy”? Is there any other way you could interpret it beyond: desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy?

With all due respect vardaquinn, the burden of proof is on the charismatics. The same way absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it would and it should take an infallible teaching from the Pope to convince any Catholic of what they do. There is no such teaching as of yet, so it is of utmost importance to stick to what we DO know - that is, how the Church has been operated for almost 2000 years - not to stray outside with modernist ways of thinking which is inherently corrupt.

 

[vardaquinn]

Also, although Our Lady of the Roses isn’t currently approved (and I know very little about the apparitions to comment) this article only references them, so I’ll link it also.

tldm.org/news8/charismaticmovement.htm

That article, which I’ve read before, quotes the Bayside Prophecies which are condemned by the Church, and not only that, are simply ludicrous in an of themselves.

I would hardly criticize us for dabbling with heretics when you link websites that are filled with heretical and condemned teachings. The people writing that website are schismatic.

That article itself is very cleverly done, in typical news story fashion, and paints a pretty picture of radical and anti-Catholic and OMG PROTESTANT AND DEMONIC!!! occurrences, when in reality the only things that are really objectionable about the whole thing are occasional frenzied enthusiasm and too much excitement and some poorly worded statements. He rests on the assumption that baptism in the Holy Spirit is heretical, which it is not, and that things like speaking in tongues are demonic. He talks about discernment of spirits, automatically assuming that charismatics don’t do this, which is also false. There is more discernment of spirits among charismatics than among non-charismatics, if anything because charismatics have more to discern and are open to far more of the working of the Holy Spirit. When it actually backs up its statements with Catholic teaching, it commits a straw man fallacy and is not addressing the beliefs of the charismatics, assuming Catholic Pentecostalism as having come exclusively from Protestants. Many of the statements are riddled with logical fallacies, bare assertions, and contradict the facts. It mentions Doctors of the Church, but distorts their teaching and doesn’t present what they actually teach (such as St. John of the Cross).

It’s a ridiculous article, I find far more problems with that than he claims to find problems with the Renewal. Plus it’s from schismatics who are little better than Protestants themselves, who could use some discernment of spirits themselves and submit to the Church’s authority.

In a word: bunk.

 

[vardaquinn]

With all due respect vardaquinn, the burden of proof is on the charismatics. The same way absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it would and it should take an infallible teaching from the Pope to convince any Catholic of what they do. There is no such teaching as of yet, so it is of utmost importance to stick to what we DO know - that is, how the Church has been operated for almost 2000 years - not to stray outside with modernist ways of thinking which is inherently corrupt.

Ah, but the Church does teach that “these charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church.” Lg 12

And 799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world. 800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms. CCC 799 - 800

As well as what is outlined here: newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm

Since all these places reference 1 Corinthinans, we can be sure they are speaking of those charisms mentioned there (which includes tongues and prophecy).

Since these are perfectly good and suited to the needs of the Church, and since the Church and Scriptures clearly says to seek an abundance of these to be of service to the Church, we can easily conclude that seeking to use ALL the charisms - extraordinary or simple - is a good thing.

Add to that the writings of many Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church…

Read this article for more renewalministries.net/files/freeliterature/Charisms%20OSV_June%2013_07.pdf

It is those who deny the teachings of the Church, the instruction of the Popes on these teachings, deny Scripture, and the tradition of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church who are straying into modernist ways…

If you want to be a true traditionalist, you must also be charismatic. It’s as simple as that.

 

[guanophore]

I'm now quite content with the traditional teachings of the Church regarding graces of the Holy Ghost. I'm confident that He works in my life without seeking after or being "open" to receiving extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues or prophesy. If we can respond to the ordinary graces given us by the Holy Ghost so that we can effectively maintain our station in life, we can also help others around us. No need to go seeking after speaking in tongues or prophesy to do this.

Yes, I agree.

Regarding the Duquesne situation, there are different accounts and interpretations of this. You yourself have previously posted links that have included information that CCR had its start from the Protestant Pentacostal denominations.

Well, we read it differently.

From my point of view, there were no Protestants around on Pentecost, which was the birth of the Charismatic gifts. Any authenticity of faith in Protestant communities comes first through the Catholic faith.

People having contact with Protestants that have benefitted from Catholic graces does not make the origin of the graces Protestant.

As has been mentioned many times, it is not a part of Catholic Church teaching that Catholics are to seek after or intentionally “be open” to receiving extraordinary graces such as speaking in tongues or prophesy.

I think it comes from an inappropriate focus on gifts, rather than the Giver. It was when the Apostles were secluded in prayer in their Pentecost novena that they received the HS. The gifts were outward signs of what happened inwardly. They went from being cowardly hiding in an upper room to proclaiming Christ in the marketplace. This same transformation is available to Catholics today.

I do appreciate your contribution on these threads, guanophore. I’m a little more sympathetic to Charismatics than I used to be. However, I draw the line when advocates of CCR say that all Catholics have to be open to the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues or prophesy, and that Charismatic liturgy (if it can be called that) should be incorporated into the TLM. I know that it will not be incorporated into the TLM that I attend.

LOL, I can understand that. I think we need to be open to all that God wants to give to us, each day, every day. If that includes gifts, then it does. If that includes suffering, then it does. I am with you, I doubt that there will be any “incorporation” like that in my lifetime, but I don’t find it necessary either. Novus Ordo Masses are approved by the Bishop to have certain elements included. The Archibishop of Santa Fe allows long periods of Adoration during his closing Mass at the Southwest Catholic Charismatic Conference every year, and time for prophetic words to be shared after communion. These inclusions always take place in an orderly and respectful manner. He is very strict about the Liturgy, and does not tolerate abuses.

 

[Denise1957]

Yes, I agree.

Well, we read it differently.

From my point of view, there were no Protestants around on Pentecost, which was the birth of the Charismatic gifts. Any authenticity of faith in Protestant communities comes first through the Catholic faith.

People having contact with Protestants that have benefitted from Catholic graces does not make the origin of the graces Protestant.

I think it comes from an inappropriate focus on gifts, rather than the Giver. It was when the Apostles were secluded in prayer in their Pentecost novena that they received the HS. The gifts were outward signs of what happened inwardly. They went from being cowardly hiding in an upper room to proclaiming Christ in the marketplace. This same transformation is available to Catholics today.

LOL, I can understand that. I think we need to be open to all that God wants to give to us, each day, every day. If that includes gifts, then it does. If that includes suffering, then it does. I am with you, I doubt that there will be any “incorporation” like that in my lifetime, but I don’t find it necessary either. Novus Ordo Masses are approved by the Bishop to have certain elements included. The Archibishop of Santa Fe allows long periods of Adoration during his closing Mass at the Southwest Catholic Charismatic Conference every year, and time for prophetic words to be shared after communion. These inclusions always take place in an orderly and respectful manner. He is very strict about the Liturgy, and does not tolerate abuses.

I appreciate your charitable post - thanks.

Quote from the above post:

“They went from being cowardly hiding in the upper room to proclaiming Christ in the marketplace.”

Regarding the above quote, I might have a little more respect for advocates of speaking in tongues and prophesy if they truly lived the life of the Apostles, whom they so often refer to. After all, what happened to the Apostles after they went into the marketplace to proclaim Christ? Here’s what happened: they all, except John, eventually met with martyrdom. If all of those who are so focused on the Apostles and the gifts of the Holy Ghost would be brave enough to go into dangerous parts of the world to speak in tongues and convert others even when they know they will likely meet with death, then I might reconsider my stance. I can think of a few places where such zeal would be needed. At this time, Somalia can use a few zeal-filled Charismatics to proclaim Christ and convert the vicious wardlords there. Would you be willing to do so? And there are places in Mexico which could use a bit of re-evangelization. How many Charismatics are there who are using their God-given charismatic gifts to convert the drug warlords in Ciudad Juarez? I can list a few other places as well, but you get the picture.

 

[jmj1984]

Vardaquinn, only the Catholic Church has the God-given right to interpret scripture. And the Catholic Church does not teach that we are to seek or be intentionally open to speaking in tongues and prophesy. You and others may believe that you have a right to interpret scripture in such a way that everyone is supposed to believe your interpretation, and you wouldn’t be the first to do so. Non-Catholics often feel they have a right to its interpretation.

If I can find a way to put you on “ignore” I will do so, since you are so obsessive and unreasonable in your views (which includes anti-Catholic views, IMO). And I also find it difficult to remain charitable with your posts here, which is my own fault, but still…

It’ll be on his profile under lists ‘add to ignore list’ hope thats of some help

 

[Denise1957]

It’ll be on his profile under lists ‘add to ignore list’ hope thats of some help

Thanks, jmj. Someone else on this thread kindly informed me earlier this evening about how to work the ignore list.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I have been following this thread out of interest in the perspectives of both sides. I am neither a “Charisimatic” nor a “Traditional” Catholic. I am just a simple girl trying to find my way in a very complicated world. My spirituality is Ignatian based, and I do my best to find God in all things. I said earlier in this thread that I don’t understand the “either/or” attitude. There is room for both Charismatics & Traditionalists, and both are needed.

Denise, please understand I am not picking on you at all, your comment though, really touched a nerve with me. Not because I think you are bashing anything, it just caused me to think. I live in a neighborhood, in a mid-sized city in western NY that, statistically, is more dangerous than Kabul, Afghanistan. If the gifts of the HS are needed anywhere, it’s in my neighborhood, and maybe that is the point of the Charismatic Renewal. Not to go out to the “troubled spots” of the world and use these gifts, but to use them in our everyday lives, in our own neighborhoods.

I appreciate your charitable post - thanks.

Quote from the above post by gunaphore

“They went from being cowardly hiding in the upper room to proclaiming Christ in the marketplace.”

Regarding the above quote, I might have a little more respect for advocates of speaking in tongues and prophesy if they truly lived the life of the Apostles, whom they so often refer to. After all, what happened to the Apostles after they went into the marketplace to proclaim Christ? Here’s what happened: they all, except John, met with martyrdom. If all of those who are so focused on the Apostles and the gifts of the Holy Ghost would be brave enough to go into dangerous parts of the world to speak in tongues and convert others even when they know they will likely meet with death, then I might reconsider my stance. I can think of a few places where such zeal would be needed. At this time, Somalia can use a few zeal-filled Charismatics to proclaim Christ and convert the vicious wardlords there. Would you be willing to do so? And there are places in Mexico which could use a bit of re-evangelization. How many Charismatics are there who are using their God-given charismatic gifts to convert the drug warlords in Ciudad Juarez? I can list a few other places as well, but you get the picture.

 

[someguy14]

1 Corinthians 3:3
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[Heuchler]

I have been following this thread out of interest in the perspectives of both sides. I am neither a “Charisimatic” nor a “Traditional” Catholic. I am just a simple girl trying to find my way in a very complicated world. My spirituality is Ignatian based, and I do my best to find God in all things. I said earlier in this thread that I don’t understand the “either/or” attitude. There is room for both Charismatics & Traditionalists, and both are needed.

Denise, please understand I am not picking on you at all, your comment though, really touched a nerve with me. Not because I think you are bashing anything, it just caused me to think. I live in a neighborhood, in a mid-sized city in western NY that, statistically, is more dangerous than Kabul, Afghanistan. If the gifts of the HS are needed anywhere, it’s in my neighborhood, and maybe that is the point of the Charismatic Renewal. Not to go out to the “troubled spots” of the world and use these gifts, but to use them in our everyday lives, in our own neighborhoods.

The point Denise was trying to make is that if this was as similar to Pentacost as some seem to say, charismatics would leave the “upper room” so to speak and use their gifts for the edification of Catholicism. As I have never seen these gifts or anything in particular that has been “revived” by the charismatics used for the eidfication of the church or outside of their meetings I fail to see it as a new pentacost. If it were like Pentacost then the charismatics of your town would go out filled with the Holy Spirit and work for the conversion of your area and a visible difference would easily be seen within the month.

 

[Denise1957]

I have been following this thread out of interest in the perspectives of both sides. I am neither a “Charisimatic” nor a “Traditional” Catholic. I am just a simple girl trying to find my way in a very complicated world. My spirituality is Ignatian based, and I do my best to find God in all things. I said earlier in this thread that I don’t understand the “either/or” attitude. There is room for both Charismatics & Traditionalists, and both are needed.

Denise, please understand I am not picking on you at all, your comment though, really touched a nerve with me. Not because I think you are bashing anything, it just caused me to think. I live in a neighborhood, in a mid-sized city in western NY that, statistically, is more dangerous than Kabul, Afghanistan. If the gifts of the HS are needed anywhere, it’s in my neighborhood, and maybe that is the point of the Charismatic Renewal. Not to go out to the “troubled spots” of the world and use these gifts, but to use them in our everyday lives, in our own neighborhoods.

I think you have a really good idea here.

The point that I was trying to make, though, is that the Apostles, being given gifts for the evangelization of the world - eventually met with death - martyrdom - for their efforts. If those who focus on the Apostles would see the whole picture as to why they were given these gifts, and be willing to give their lives, as the Apostles did, then constantly referring to the Apostles and the gifts they were given for evangelization would make more sense.

 

[Denise1957]

The point Denise was trying to make is that if this was as similar to Pentacost as some seem to say, charismatics would leave the “upper room” so to speak and use their gifts for the edification of Catholicism. As I have never seen these gifts or anything in particular that has been “revived” by the charismatics used for the eidfication of the church or outside of their meetings I fail to see it as a new pentacost. If it were like Pentacost then the charismatics of your town would go out filled with the Holy Spirit and work for the conversion of your area and a visible difference would easily be seen within the month.

Thanks, Heuchler, you’ve explained it very well here.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I think you have a really good idea here.

The point that I was trying to make, though, is that the Apostles, being given gifts for the evangelization of the world - eventually met with death - martyrdom - for their efforts. If those who focus on the Apostles would see the whole picture as to why they were given these gifts, and be willing to give their lives, as the Apostles did, then constantly referring to the Apostles and the gifts they were given for evangelization would make more sense.

OK, I understand, and agree for the most part.
However, (why is there always a however? ), and I am thinking (typing) out loud here, so if I confuse, please ask for clarification.

I think you may be looking at this a little too literally. Yes, most of the Apostles were martyred, and in some very horrific ways. But couldn’t be said that someone who chooses to live their life, using the gifts much like the Apostles did are suffering “martyrdom” just the same. They may not be loosing the actual, physical lives, but there is loss in other ways.

As I have become stronger in my faith, and have stared to speak out on many of the issues that plague my diocese, I have lost many friends, have had many strained relationships, and have suffered greatly for trying to uphold my values & beliefs, which, to most of my “inner circle” is looked at as “crazy, rigid and legalistic”- and these people are my family & closest friends!

Not martyrdom in the truest sense, but it is giving up one life to have that “something more”.