Differences

[CMatt25]

Having read these words by another poster addressed to me, “You are not beyond confrontation, especially with a heretical Christian belief” (unsure which heretical belief of mine he was referring to)… I present some things to ponder including some differences even before the Schism and Reformation.

The Apostles argued over the greatest.

Paul corrected Peter.

Disciples differed over circumcision.

And no one was calling another a heretic in Acts 15.

Paul taught in Rom 14 not to argue over doubtful points and not to pass judgment.

In Acts 15 Paul and Barnabus go their separate ways. Neither commanded the other submit to the other one. They agreed to disagree. To go their separate ways. But this did not prevent them from doing God’s work.

Saints and Popes have differed. According to this with its references even on a subject such as abortion. religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htmeat

May God bless each of us along our lifelong journeys and walks of faith. Peace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Having read these words by another poster addressed to me, “You are not beyond confrontation, especially with a heretical Christian belief” (unsure which heretical belief of mine he was referring to)… I present some things to ponder including some differences even before the Schism and Reformation.

The Apostles argued over the greatest.

Paul corrected Peter.

Disciples differed over circumcision.

And no one was calling another a heretic in Acts 15.

Paul taught in Rom 14 not to argue over doubtful points and not to pass judgment.

In Acts 15 Paul and Barnabus go their separate ways. Neither commanded the other submit to the other one. They agreed to disagree. To go their separate ways. But this did not prevent them from doing God’s work.

Saints and Popes have differed. According to this with its references even on a subject such as abortion. religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htmeat

May God bless each of us along our lifelong journeys and walks of faith. Peace.

Matt, I was nodding my head reading your post **until you went and brought up the ‘religious tolerance’ link. **

If you’d edit your post to remove that, I think most people would do exactly what you wanted. . .stop and think. If not, you’re just going to get arguments and upset. Peace to you.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt, I was nodding my head reading your post **until you went and brought up the ‘religious tolerance’ link. **

If you’d edit your post to remove that, I think most people would do exactly what you wanted. . .stop and think. If not, you’re just going to get arguments and upset. Peace to you.

Tantum, if you were nodding up until that point reading a post of mine, that may be a first between us. Just goes to show anything is possible! I truly did not put the tolerance link in there to stir argument, debate or upset over differences about the abortion issue. Just the quickest link I could find which I had bookmarked as an example of differences in Catholicism over time. But please no one start argung or getting upset over abortion here on this thread. That was not my intent. And I can’t edit as it has been past 20 mins. Peace Tantum.

 

[Roy5]

CMatt25
Great post! Thanks!

 

[svid]

Sometimes Saints disagreed with each other over which ‘Pope’ was the real one.

Maybe I’ll pass on that link…

 

[Lapey]

Having read these words by another poster addressed to me, “You are not beyond confrontation, especially with a heretical Christian belief” (unsure which heretical belief of mine he was referring to)… I present some things to ponder including some differences even before the Schism and Reformation.

The Apostles argued over the greatest.

Paul corrected Peter.

Disciples differed over circumcision.

And no one was calling another a heretic in Acts 15.

Paul taught in Rom 14 not to argue over doubtful points and not to pass judgment.

In Acts 15 Paul and Barnabus go their separate ways. Neither commanded the other submit to the other one. They agreed to disagree. To go their separate ways. But this did not prevent them from doing God’s work.

Saints and Popes have differed. According to this with its references even on a subject such as abortion. religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htmeat life as well.

May God bless each of us along our lifelong journeys and walks of faith. Peace.

Matt,

Let’s get right to the point. You are Catholic; at least that’s what your religion affiliation has been until recently. You claim that all should be welcomed at the altar to receive the Eucharist, if I’m not mistaken you said that everyone should be welcome to receive the “wafer”. Remember that discussion with me some time back? BTW, you chose sides with non-Catholics again in that case.

Now, I do not know the early Christians first hand and neither do you, but I would say and many scholars agree that the Eucharist in scripture is held in very high regard. In fact it is stated that one who receives without properly discerning the body and blood will bring damnation upon himself. Obviously this statement you use to not argue, is used out of context. This is very often the case where denominations disagree, that is precisely why the magisterium is so necessary.

I say that you being Catholic and trying to lead other in a wrong understanding of the faith is heretical and it is my duty to inform you of such mistakes as a brother Catholic Christian. That is not being judgmental; it is being charitable to my brother. You may see it differently, but you might want to revisit what the word judgment means.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt,

Let’s get right to the point. You are Catholic; at least that’s what your religion affiliation has been until recently. You claim that all should be welcomed at the altar to receive the Eucharist, if I’m not mistaken you said that everyone should be welcome to receive the “wafer”. Remember that discussion with me some time back? BTW, you chose sides with non-Catholics again in that case.

Now, I do not know the early Christians first hand and neither do you, but I would say and many scholars agree that the Eucharist in scripture is held in very high regard. In fact it is stated that one who receives without properly discerning the body and blood will bring damnation upon himself. Obviously this statement you use to not argue, is used out of context. This is very often the case where denominations disagree, that is precisely why the magisterium is so necessary.

I say that you being Catholic and trying to lead other in a wrong understanding of the faith is heretical and it is my duty to inform you of such mistakes as a brother Catholic Christian. That is not being judgmental; it is being charitable to my brother. You may see it differently, but you might want to revisit what the word judgment means.

Lapey, that was so long ago I forget if you were upset over wafer or host. But if I recall correctly I then went on to explain. And the past is the past. As you properly note I do not identify in my profile as a Catholic here any longer. God bless and peace.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, that was so long ago I forget if you were upset over wafer or host. But if I recall correctly I then went on to explain. And the past is the past. As you properly note I do not identify in my profile as a Catholic here any longer. God bless and peace.

ok…

 

[benidict]

Matt,

Let’s get right to the point. You are Catholic; at least that’s what your religion affiliation has been until recently. You claim that all should be welcomed at the altar to receive the Eucharist, if I’m not mistaken you said that everyone should be welcome to receive the “wafer”. Remember that discussion with me some time back? BTW, you chose sides with non-Catholics again in that case.

Now, I do not know the early Christians first hand and neither do you, but I would say and many scholars agree that the Eucharist in scripture is held in very high regard. In fact it is stated that one who receives without properly discerning the body and blood will bring damnation upon himself. Obviously this statement you use to not argue, is used out of context. This is very often the case where denominations disagree, that is precisely why the magisterium is so necessary.

I say that you being Catholic and trying to lead other in a wrong understanding of the faith is heretical and it is my duty to inform you of such mistakes as a brother Catholic Christian. That is not being judgmental; it is being charitable to my brother. You may see it differently, but you might want to revisit what the word judgment means.

Thank you so much for this post. mystery solved. I was wondering what his affiliation was…This helps me to understand where he is coming from. Appreciate it.

 

[Lapey]

Thank you so much for this post. mystery solved. I was wondering what his affiliation was…This helps me to understand where he is coming from. Appreciate it.

You’re welcome. You know what’s funny? He used to fight tooth and nail with several of us on here to say that no matter what, one is always Catholic, once Catholic always Catholic. Now he removes his affiliation to the Church he proclaimed as always his. So I guess he decided it didn’t fit anymore…I don’t know for sure, just a thought. We’ll never know for sure because he won’t discuss specifics only general topics.

 

[CMatt25]

Thank you so much for this post. mystery solved. I was wondering what his affiliation was…This helps me to understand where he is coming from. Appreciate it.

It was? How so? A forum rule states “It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.”

 

[CMatt25]

You’re welcome. You know what’s funny? He used to fight tooth and nail with several of us on here to say that no matter what, one is always Catholic, once Catholic always Catholic. Now he removes his affiliation to the Church he proclaimed as always his. So I guess he decided it didn’t fit anymore…I don’t know for sure, just a thought. We’ll never know for sure because he won’t discuss specifics only general topics.

So the Church hasn’t changed her teaching, Lapey, on who is affiliated? You’re right also about what you don’t know for sure about. If it helps you though, sometimes what can be said in the Church does not apply to this forum. I am not the topic here however.

 

[Lapey]

So the Church hasn’t changed her teaching, Lapey, on who is affiliated? You’re right also about what you don’t know for sure about. If it helps you though, sometimes what can be said in the Church does not apply to this forum. I am not the topic here however.

I wasn’t one who said you would not be Catholic anymore. Even an ecommunicated Catholic is still Catholic. My point simply was, you stopped calling yourself Catholic. Either you lied in the first place or ashamed of who you are.

PS. you are the topic because you brought up heretical teaching, which you have taken part in, i.e. the Eucharist issue I mentioned.

 

[CMatt25]

My point simply was, you stopped calling yourself Catholic. Either you lied in the first place or ashamed of who you are.

PS. you are the topic because you brought up heretical teaching, which you have taken part in, i.e. the Eucharist issue I mentioned.

Lapey, no neither one. I will say this once more so there is no confusion by anyone and no uproar necessary. I do not speak for the Catholic Church on this forum. And it is not me but others who bring up my past.

And Lapey, if open Communion as I believe Christ called for in Jn 6:37 with His words, “I will never turn away anyone who comes to me” (GNT approved version by USCCB), makes me a heretic, then I have no problem being labeled or judged a heretic by you. It is what my informed conscience nevertheless still believes. And CCC 1782 and 1790 are 2 which I believe even after informing. They’re in there for some reason. Though it is questionable why they haven’t been removed from the CCC since it is expected you must force your conscience to go by what the Church informs you of anyway. And one truly doesn’t have the freedom of conscience to abide by so as not to be condemned.

Peace.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, no neither one. I will say this once more so there is no confusion by anyone and no uproar necessary. I do not speak for the Catholic Church on this forum. And it is not me but others who bring up my past.

And Lapey, if open Communion as I believe Christ called for in Jn 6:37 with His words, “I will never turn away anyone who comes to me” (GNT approved version by USCCB), makes me a heretic, then I have no problem being labeled or judged a heretic by you. It is what my informed conscience nevertheless still believes. And CCC 1782 and 1790 are 2 which I believe even after informing. They’re in there for some reason. Though it is questionable why they haven’t been removed from the CCC since it is expected you must force your conscience to go by what the Church informs you of anyway. And one truly doesn’t have the freedom of conscience to abide by so as not to be condemned.

Peace.

If you conscience is in direct contradiction of Church teaching and scripture and Tradition, then your conscience if ill formed. It’s time to rethink what your conscience is telling you.

PS. You haven’t come to Him in order to be rejected, you still preach your truth; not His. That’s dangerous.

 

[CMatt25]

If you conscience is in direct contradiction of Church teaching and scripture and Tradition, then your conscience if ill formed. It’s time to rethink what your conscience is telling you.

PS. You haven’t come to Him in order to be rejected, you still preach your truth; not His. That’s dangerous.

Like I said Lapey. Then just erase those 2 CCC sections and jump right to where one must inform, force their reasoning, mind and conscience to conform to everything. Or else be in err, ill formed, or heretical because of faith and belief differences with the Catholic Church’s beliefs.

And Ratzinger while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968 before becoming Pope might as well not have said these words, “Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”

 

[Lapey]

Like I said Lapey. Then just erase those 2 CCC sections and jump right to where one must inform, force their reasoning, mind and conscience to conform to everything. Or else be in err, ill formed, or heretical because of faith and belief differences with the Catholic Church’s beliefs.

And Ratzinger while serving as Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen in 1968 before becoming Pope might as well not have said these words, “Above the pope as an expression of the binding claim of church authority stands one’s own conscience, which has to be obeyed first of all, if need be against the demands of church authority.”

So what is truth? Is there truth? This makes no sense. You are using the Holy Father’s words wrongly.

If what you say is true, nothing is right and nothing is wrong. Sounds like thats about it to me, how about you?

 

[CMatt25]

So what is truth? Is there truth? This makes no sense. You are using the Holy Father’s words wrongly.

If what you say is true, nothing is right and nothing is wrong. Sounds like thats about it to me, how about you?

Nope it doesn’t sound like that to me at all. Because the honest truth is actually quite simple. We can believe there is one ultimate truth. So it is not relativism like a lot of Catholics seem to like to say. But if we are honest with ourselves the one truth is what we have faith in and believe it to be. Some might be wrong and others not. But no one truly knows with absolute certainty.

And the human finite mind can not possibly grasp and truly know all things of God. That is why God is God. And the rest of us, Lapey, well, merely human.

So see Lapey. To get back more to my original post. Differences.

God bless you on your faith walk and all on their journeys on this earth. And peace my friend to you and to all.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, no neither one. I will say this once more so there is no confusion by anyone and no uproar necessary. I do not speak for the Catholic Church on this forum. And it is not me but others who bring up my past.

And Lapey, if open Communion as I believe Christ called for in Jn 6:37 with His words, “I will never turn away anyone who comes to me” (GNT approved version by USCCB), makes me a heretic, then I have no problem being labeled or judged a heretic by you. It is what my informed conscience nevertheless still believes. And CCC 1782 and 1790 are 2 which I believe even after informing. They’re in there for some reason. Though it is questionable why they haven’t been removed from the CCC since it is expected you must force your conscience to go by what the Church informs you of anyway. And one truly doesn’t have the freedom of conscience to abide by so as not to be condemned.

Peace.

I don’t understand how it is possible to overlook all the other CCC’s and just see the ones that you like. This is where the error is that we make. It’s not about following your conscience, there we agree. It’s about the formation of a moral conscience. Please read the rest. I’ll list some here:

II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

III. TO CHOOSE IN ACCORD WITH CONSCIENCE

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
• the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. **Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. **

Got to look further my brother!!!

 

[CMatt25]

Thanks Lapey but I actually already had the whole section on conscience bookmarked! And yes I’ve read it over and over.