Difficult to refute this claim about Church corruption

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You’re a loyal Catholic who agrees with an article that explicitly calls for the end of the Catholic Church? How do you manage that?

I’m as mad as anybody else but we’ve gotta keep our heads. “Cuz women don’t tend to rape children” yeah except when they do. These people are hardly better than those they are mad at. They thoughtlessly use kids as a shield for their agenda. This problem has nothing to do with women not being clergy.

The only proper response is solidarity with those hurt, a rooting out of the rot in the church, and prayer.
 
I’ve always been able to hang my hat on saying things like the Church feeds millions daily or I have been able to reach for a spiritual life. I guess, what is important is I definitely feel like God is there.

This other is bothersome, it is another trial. We’ve been through this before. Sadly, we will probably go through it again.

There really are such great ideas about the Catholic faith, that we will “keep” the faith up.
 
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Nothin to refute. Yes there is corruption. As some have pointed out; Hollywood, Nike, Apple, the public school system and political parties may reach similar situations. In non-USA countries… let us not even mention the level of secrecy and corruption in some of those places.

I mean it makes me sick but I know that the stuff in that report is kiddie play compared to what is happening to kids in my own country now, and I bet you politicians, teachers, doctors, lawyers, priests or other important people are getting covered up. Heck, although illegal it is considered normal for the police to beat people up and it is all hushed and put under the rug although we all know it is happening. If you are under arrest awaiting trial we all know you’ll get beaten. If you piss on the street they might get violent. We just know. So I since I know worse is happening here I am not that shocked.

As for the CC, yes we should do better, yes we should reform. No, this does not mean that the dogmas are not true or that the teaching authority is not authoritative. I do see why people would feel that way, I really do. I mean… practice what you preach right? I disagree with the conclusion though. The reason why this is hard to tackle is because many would use any discovered instances to as polemics against the faith or many Catholics would see it as reason to leave, thus both the hierarchy and faithful tend towards reluctance.

This is a natural reaction but ultimately unhelpful from both sides. Apple Iphones work. They need to make their factories more humane but humane or not the Iphone just works! Yeah put those responsible in jail, reform the company, mourn with victims, etc. but that does not mean we need to close it.
 
Hm… here is a thought… the Christian Church will not be judged by secular standards? Is the world an enemy or a friend of Salvation? The Judgement belongs to the Lord and not people? Atheists aren’t enlightened because they think without God? The Church is not advertisement to God?
Just saying…
 
Quote me the part of the article that explicitly calls for the end of the Catholic church. I re-read it and I’m not seeing it.
 
That is the kind of thinking that got us where we are. The hierarchy decided they were above secular law and so decided to violate secular law to cover things up. “Give to Cesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s” The clergy are subject to both secular law and Church law. If a priest speeds, he gets a ticket. If he murders, he goes to prison. If he rapes a child, he goes to prison. He can still be subject to Church law spiritually. And Church law doesn’t support speeding, murdering or rape anyway.
 
At a minimum, the U.S. government would likely use its Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) law to go after not only the rapists and molesters, but also the company’s executives, up to and including its CEO if possible, seizing the company’s assets and seeking the harshest possible prison terms. That’s the sort of thing RICO was invented for. The company would almost certainly collapse.
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The author is of course saying this should be the treatment of the RCC. There’s nothing implicit or veiled about the wording here.
 
jfz178 said:
And Church law doesn’t support speeding, murdering or rape anyway.
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Then they have to be judged by church law.
The Apostles Canon? What if the bishops refuse to judge each other? We pray. Hard. So they do.
We fast until they do. The Church is subject only to God. The rulers of this world are not from the Father. Let Caesar have what belongs to him and to God what belongs to God can also mean this. Caesar and God are separated.
 
First, by definition, “The Church” is “the global community of believers founded by Jesus Christ over two-thousand years ago.” I see nothing in that article that changes that. Such a move would be targeted at the Church hierarchy and it looks to me like they have it coming for betraying us. But by the true meaning of “Church,” we will survive. We survived before there was much of a hierarchy.

Second, the RICO Act was targeted at the Mafia. It has been in place for nearly 50 years and the Mafia is still in place. In fact, the five families in NYC are all still intact. Given that the Mafia does not have the protection of the First Amendment, I think the Church will face much better that they did. Also, RICO is a US law. It cannot be used against the Pope or any clergy outside of the US.
 
So priests should not get speeding tickets? They should be able to get away with murder?
 
I put no words in his mouth. My definition of the Church is the Church’s own definition. My definition of RICO is fact. The current situation of the Mafia is fact.
 
Usagi said:
The problem today seems to be not so much that the abuse itself is ongoing (at least here) as that those who did the covering-up have yet to be exposed and punished.
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Of course, the hard part is exposing. Part of the nature of a cover up is that you don’t want anyone to know what is going on, and that includes the cover up itself.
therese1998 said:
Just as one case is one case too many, you will also learn that the rate of sexual abuse within the Church is commensurate, or slightly lower, than the rate of sexual abuse within secular society as well as within other “helping” professions.
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While this is a good counterpoint to those who claim that child sexual abuse is “rampant” in the Church, as if the Church is a breeding ground for the problem through things like only male and celibate priests, it doesn’t really get to the heart of the matter. A lot of people really don’t care as much about the sexual abuse itself but the coverup of and complacency towards that abuse.
 
The Church hierarchy seriously needs to get its $#!% together.

It’s a pathetic dismissal by any Catholic saying that our Church hierarchy is no more corrupt than secular organizations.
Name another organization (secular or religious) that covers up thousands of child rapes committed by it’s executives. NAME ONE.
And not just covers it up and protects their predator executives but actually shuffles them around when the heat’s on so that they can hunt and prey again and again on more children.
Name another organization that’s done this, and on this global scale no less.
Name one.
 
There are a few parts to the problem:
  • Church leaders are publicly listening now…to the cynical this is a bit of PR.
  • While many of the current Church leaders have inherited this issue, the listening needed to have been done years ago.
  • “Praying about it” has little meaning to the secular world. How often do people say “praying for you” or “thoughts and prayers” when they never will?
  • If you don’t believe in God or are sufficiently disconnected from Christianity, praying feels much “oh sorry our product hurt you, we’ll do some further research it fix it, but we won’t give you any compensation”.
  • They hear ridiculous stuff like oh, it’s because there were gay priests. Meanwhile those people continue to defensively center the Church not the victims.
  • The Church has ruined its own message. Would you buy from a food company where some employees intentionally poisoned its food and the organization covered it up for decades even though some people had became permanently sickened? Then even when the truth came out it stymied compensation, investigations, and real reform for decades?
  • Church foot dragging interfered with justice by letting its cover ups help Priests get off without punishment.
This is what is wrong and the article is basically right. You can wrap it up in all the flowery language like “oh, but only the Church has the truth”, “it’s not the faith but the institution”, “oh, the devil is at work”… You may not see it this way, but the Church has a product to sell and that’s just a fact of reality.
 
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KevinK said:
I am tiring of the defense that the Church is no worse than other institutions
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With all due respect, I think you are falling into the secular trap of saying that, because we are identifying this problem in context, that means we are just sitting back and not addressing the issues. Articles like these are NOTORIOUS for failing to report or minimizing the effective and global reforms that have taken place in the Church in the past decade and a half. Don’t be persuaded by secular politics to see your Church as not addressing the issue when she IS addressing the issue. Past crimes coming to light do not constitute something we didn’t already know and address, no matter the hysteria they are intended to generate.

Also, resist the idea that the Church must be made up of the elect, the “better” of society. Obviously, we aim to achieve Christ’s goals for us. Obviously, we work at it and we try. But to berate the Church for being full of sinners that are no good than “secular people and organizations” really isn’t helpful.

Finally, what are you doing to push forward the culture of respect and striving for personal holiness that we need in this Church? What influence do you have and where are you using it? You are not impotent in your influence; you are not powerless to make change within your own Church. It is not only the leadership’s problem; we need to demand accountability, proper behavior and transparency from those who work within the Church. More energy into positive change and less into blaming and hand wringing may bring you more peace.

Please understand I am not trying to be snarky…I am as prone to negativity, blaming and hand wringing as anyone. My advice comes from experience. Good luck to you.
 
ZMystiCat said:
A lot of people really don’t care as much about the sexual abuse itself but the coverup of and complacency towards that abuse.
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Agreed. And if they are smart, so will the Church leadership. It is important, however, to understand the problem in context as we draw our Church members from human (secular) society and not from Heaven. It also proves that it is not the teachings of the Church nor some “open secret” policy condoning the sexualization of children within the Church itself, which is a common claim both directly and indirectly in most secular media articles about the Church
 
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