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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
What is it that you don’t understand? There have been many murders in the Protestant churches, do you even know this? I do not want to discuss this further.
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sambos671
Guest
You don’t want to discuss this because you know I’m right. There are many murders in Catholic churches. What don’t you understand? There certainly enough to go around. It’s just not a good argument that since there’s murders in Protestant churches there is assumed some sence of inadequacy of truth. The same could be said of Catholic churches. Whether sinful people unbalanced by their sin commit crimes is not an indicator of truth but a revelation into the condition of man and the sin that permeates him.
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AwGusTeen
Guest
Jon:
That seems like a loaded statement. Please elaborate.
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seby86
Guest
I certainly agree that my opinion of Purgatory fortified a certain point i was trying to make but was innacurate. However if you are purifying yourself from your sins in purgatory, is God’s power and mercy not apparent during that time? Therefore it can be seen as a reminder of his everlasting presence, mercy and power. But from what i now understand, this is only givin the fact that you already accept him and glorify him during you life on earth correct? otherwise you would skip purgatory and go straight to “hell”. correct?
This Baptist girl was actually my girlfriend of One and a half years. I was not personally shunned but had read stories and talked to people who claim they felt they had been. It never got too terribly bad between us although we did have our occasional arguments. But any type of defense of the Catholic faith or any mention of an apologetic topic would be immediately shot down and i would be ordered to end the conversation or else i would be asked to leave… so yea. that always broke my heart and made me feel really down… Instead of an explanation of my faith, they saw it as an attack against theirs and i came to my own conclusion that perhaps “closed-mindness” and ignorance may be playing a role. but who knows. thats why i brought up the topic here. I dont want to judge too harshly or quickly.
This Baptist girl was actually my girlfriend of One and a half years. I was not personally shunned but had read stories and talked to people who claim they felt they had been. It never got too terribly bad between us although we did have our occasional arguments. But any type of defense of the Catholic faith or any mention of an apologetic topic would be immediately shot down and i would be ordered to end the conversation or else i would be asked to leave… so yea. that always broke my heart and made me feel really down… Instead of an explanation of my faith, they saw it as an attack against theirs and i came to my own conclusion that perhaps “closed-mindness” and ignorance may be playing a role. but who knows. thats why i brought up the topic here. I dont want to judge too harshly or quickly.
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seby86
Guest
EDIT: I wouldnt necessarily say i was heart broken. but definitely upset at the apparent inability to openly listen to my opinion. whereas it would of been extremely rude for me to interrupt them when they were speaking ( my GF, her parents or friends or whoever) and they would of been very upset with me, no doubt about that, which is why i listened intently. however as soon as i mention anything catholic, they inform me its time to end the conversation. Believe me i know all Baptists are not like this, no need to elaborate on that point. perhaps even most Baptists are not this way, but this is the experience I personally had.
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whatistruth
Guest
I am a former baptist and the main reasons I left that community was very simple:
They do not believe in “Infant Baptism” that contradicts Truth,
They do not believe in any form of sacramental system,
They do not accept the Nicene Creed of 325,
They do not accept the Authority role of the “Apostolic Church”,
The Crucifix is a folly to them as St Paul stated,
They do not accept the true and complete Holy Bible,
They allow divorce and re-marriage by the same pastor that married them the first time, and many of the pastors are divorced and remarried themselves.
I could go on and on. The assembly is not at fault and we must pray for their calling into the True Church. It is the semenaries the pastors recieve their doctrine from and the pastors that lead their communities.
In the early Church they were called heretics!
They do not believe in “Infant Baptism” that contradicts Truth,
They do not believe in any form of sacramental system,
They do not accept the Nicene Creed of 325,
They do not accept the Authority role of the “Apostolic Church”,
The Crucifix is a folly to them as St Paul stated,
They do not accept the true and complete Holy Bible,
They allow divorce and re-marriage by the same pastor that married them the first time, and many of the pastors are divorced and remarried themselves.
I could go on and on. The assembly is not at fault and we must pray for their calling into the True Church. It is the semenaries the pastors recieve their doctrine from and the pastors that lead their communities.
In the early Church they were called heretics!
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Georgia
Guest
Others have made this point and it bears repeating. There is no standard set of beliefs required to call oneself a Baptist. I was raised in a Baptist church in a town that had more than a few churches that were nominally of the same denomination. We often heard remarks that some church nearby was wrong because they believed X while we believed Y. They, I would think, thought the same way about us.
It was not unusual and is not to this day to see Baptist churches on the same block as another in my home town. If they shared identical beliefs, it would seem they were spreading themselves pretty thin without a lot to show for it.
All seemed to share once saved always saved theology. There are differences in the need for baptism and when it should be done, how often to have communion, whether the divorced could remarry, who could be deacons, if alcohol use could be tolerated at all, if dancing was a sin, if there is predestination and so on. There were regular church splits that led to new congregations and many hurt feelings.
It was not unusual and is not to this day to see Baptist churches on the same block as another in my home town. If they shared identical beliefs, it would seem they were spreading themselves pretty thin without a lot to show for it.
All seemed to share once saved always saved theology. There are differences in the need for baptism and when it should be done, how often to have communion, whether the divorced could remarry, who could be deacons, if alcohol use could be tolerated at all, if dancing was a sin, if there is predestination and so on. There were regular church splits that led to new congregations and many hurt feelings.
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emarc
Guest
Protestants’ lack of a teaching authority (Catholics have the Magisterium) results to different and oftentimes conflicting doctrinal teachings. This should be a big concern for their followers and apparently it is. Having about 30,000 different Protestant denominations could not be a good source to find Truth. We as Catholics are called to engage them in an ecumenical dialogue following what Jesus himself said in John. 17: 20-22 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.”
God bless.
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BareKnuckler
Guest
I have the same problem with Catholics.
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adowcday
Guest
One thing I’ve learned from Baptists. What I believe and do as a Catholic is wrong. It just is. Because I’m a Catholic. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Also, if I want to have a relationship with Jesus, I need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer. That’s all that I need to do. Anything more than faith in Jesus is works righteousness, which is wrong. And you get a personal relationship with Jesus just by sincerely praying the prayer. You can act like a heathen jackass for the rest of your life, but your ticket is punched and you are assured a seat on the glory train – assurance of salvation works even when you live like the demon’s spawn. Oh yeah, and I need to leave the Catholic Church. Right away – it’s wrong. And I need to be baptized (again – my first baptism was wrong) and attend a Baptist church. Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Pentecostal – all wrong. Attend a Baptist church. Oh, and tithe your income (before taxes). And read the bible – just the bible. And witness to your family, friends, and co-workers, even the guy in the street. And pray, but don’t meditate or contemplate. That’s wrong. That’s all you need to do. Faith, not works. Works are wrong.
Did I get anything wrong? Yeah, probably…
Also, if I want to have a relationship with Jesus, I need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer. That’s all that I need to do. Anything more than faith in Jesus is works righteousness, which is wrong. And you get a personal relationship with Jesus just by sincerely praying the prayer. You can act like a heathen jackass for the rest of your life, but your ticket is punched and you are assured a seat on the glory train – assurance of salvation works even when you live like the demon’s spawn. Oh yeah, and I need to leave the Catholic Church. Right away – it’s wrong. And I need to be baptized (again – my first baptism was wrong) and attend a Baptist church. Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Pentecostal – all wrong. Attend a Baptist church. Oh, and tithe your income (before taxes). And read the bible – just the bible. And witness to your family, friends, and co-workers, even the guy in the street. And pray, but don’t meditate or contemplate. That’s wrong. That’s all you need to do. Faith, not works. Works are wrong.
Did I get anything wrong? Yeah, probably…
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Yeh but the Sinner’s prayer is not in the bible and won’t save you. It is a false doctrine that developed from Calvinism and was first produced less than fifty years ago.
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Dirk_Skene
Guest
I do not mean this the way I am sure it is about to come over … but why do you even care what Baptists teach? Now I am not trying to be cold, really. I do not get into agruments or debates. The Church is right. Others are right only so long as they agree or are willing to learn from us. If they are obstanate I smile & go on.
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whatistruth
Guest
I work in the largest Baptist church in America. Every day I witness Catholics leaving the Church due to baptist convincing them they are not saved due to infant baptism and convincing them there are no needs for the sacraments especially confessing sins to a priest. This is heresy. This is my cross that I carry every day and I thank God for it. Come with me to a baptist church and witness the heresies and then tell me if you still hold to what you stated. If you do not believe me what I have posted I challenge you to contact a local baptist church and ask him if what I am stating is true. You will find in his own church half of his own members are fallin’ away Catholics. Does this sit O.K. with you? it does not sit well for me. Please let us stop the “American let us be politically correct buisness” St Paul would have never allowed a Catholic Church to accept this behavior and if I can not convince you read his 1st letter to the Corinthians carefully and you will notice I am in harmony with his emotions and conscerns.
Peace of Jesus Christ be with you
Peace of Jesus Christ be with you
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AwGusTeen
Guest
It might be interesting to go to a Protestant forum and set up an anonymous survey question such as “Do you believe that Catholics are going to hell?” just to see the results. Coming from a Baptist family here in LA (Lower Alabama) I would expect the results to be a majority in the affirmative.
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Paul3144
Guest
I’m Baptist and while I don’t know about your experiences in particular, you’re misrepresenting what we believe. You can’t just “pray the prayer.” Without faith and repentance there is no salvation. Here’s a quote from the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the doctrinal statement of the Southern Baptist Convention:
sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
In response to your “act[ing] like a heathen jackass for the rest of your life” comment, read section C above and the second paragraph of Article V in the linked document. A person who is truly regenerate will continue to believe and repent and will be kept by the power of God from falling away from the faith.
The way to have assurance of salvation is to continue to place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. While we do believe that all truly regenerate people will be kept by the power of God unto the end; it is possible for there to be “false believers” that, not being truly saved in the first place, will fall away (1 John 2:19).
Also, we believe that works are very important in the Christian life (see also the book of James.)
If you want to disagree with Baptist theology, that’s fine; but please disagree with we actually believe.
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zzz
Guest
Nice post, Paul…thank you!!
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AwGusTeen
Guest
That’s a good point Paul. However, Baptists don’t all fall under the SBC. What about Free Will Baptists (the saved CAN fall away) , or Landmarker Baptists (Calvanists - double predestination)?
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Paul3144
Guest
In regards to Free Will Baptists, it’s important to note that they don’t believe that a single act of sin, however major, can cut one off from grace, but rather a willful apostasy or repudiation of Christ. My main point in my last post is that no Baptists believe that praying the sinner’s prayer until you get the “warm fuzzies” will save you.
About the Calvinists: Although only about 30% or so of SBC is full-fledged Calvinist (not many of whom believe in double predestination), our doctrine of perseverance is fundamentally a Calvinist doctrine so my last post applies.
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AwGusTeen
Guest
So, you are saying that Baptists (Southern, Freewill, Landmarker, Primitive, Reformed, Charismatic, et. al) hold to the same theology as codified by the SBC?
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adowcday
Guest
I’ve attended Baptist churches (and so-called community churches pastored by Baptists) for years, since my wife is not a Catholic – until recently, I attended both a Protestant church and a Catholic church. I’ve even taught in such churches. I am well aware that in many rapidly growing evangelical churches, often 30-40% or more of “converts” are former Catholics. For the most part, they are lapsed Catholics or lack basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine and history, but admittedly some simply want a different, more vibrant style of worship or more bible teaching. Catholic teaching is usually grossly misrepresented, and most evangelism is targeted at Christians from other denominations, especailly Catholics, rather than at the unchurched. Others who have responded to my post (admittedly an angry one) have said that it is not Baptist doctrine that “all you need to do is pray the Sinner’s Prayer”. In practice, that is precisely what is preached and practiced day in and day out in most evangelical churches with which I am acquainted. Once you join the church, you find out that more is expected of you (I listed some of those things), but I can guarantee you, those additional things are not taught in evangelism courses. “If you want to know that you’ll go to heaven, walk down to the altar and pray the prayer.” I think that modern evangelical churches, including Baptist churches, do not understand the scriptures properly and are highly selective about what the teach. I listened to hundreds of sermons, had face to face talks with lots of pastors, read the leading books and attended lots of classes in such churches. I think I got this one right, even though my approach was too angry, for which I apologize.
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