DIL Cheating on my son, and he's ok with it!?

[pianistclare]

Oh please! What would make someone without religious faith think this is a bad idea? Well…I know that if it were me my concerns would include, but in no way be limited to:

-Risk of STDs
-Risk of pregnancy
-Concern for what it could be secretly doing to my husband mentally and emotionally
-Fear of emotions getting involved and falling for someone else
-Fear of a friend or family member (like say, a BIL) somehow finding out
-Fear that although my husband is a very skilled and generous lover, he could start to seem boring compared to falling into bed with different men all the time
-Fear that our sex life would suffer for the above reason and many others
-Concern that my husband would eventually want to try out extramarital activity himself

This isn’t really a case of “those quirky atheists, you never know what they’ll come up with next” and more a case of this being a very fringe and very risky lifestyle. My circle is extremely secular, and if someone announced that this is how they were living, it would still be very shocking.

That said, I’m not sure that there is anything the OP can or should do.

Nobody said they were atheists.
Don’t read extras into my post, thanks.
It’s well documented that religious belief factors in to whether people consider their actions accountable.
People of faith have a hard time putting aside morality.
I have no idea what atheists believe, as I was not talking about them.
The OP came to ask Catholics what their opinion was. I’m only speaking as a practicing Catholic who has the 10 Commandments to guide me.
There’s all kinds of fear.

 

[JamalChristophr]

If you’re a good existentialist and you don’t believe in God, then pretty much anything goes.

We probably don’t want to go there, but almost anything can be justified when you take God out of the equation.

 

[pianistclare]

the whole thing sounds off.

 

[schaeffer]

I am adding this to the discussion, not aimed at the OP’s situation specifically as I don’t know the parties involved.

I have known several similar situations in my life. Most of them were a case of one of the partners being homosexual or bisexual. They wanted to be married and have children for societal reasons. They love their spouse very much, and want to raise the children with them, but they fulfill other desires on the side.

For some of the couples the only time they have sex with their spouse is when they are trying to conceive.

I will say that most of the couples I knew who married for that reason did so earlier, before homosexual unions were tolerated. A number of my husbands professors were in such relationships, and when homosexual relations were more acceptable in society, the partners “came out”, even to their children yet often stayed with their lifetime spouse.

Other cases I knew personally were because one of the partners had a sort of fetish, or for other reasons their partner was not interested in sex, or incapable of it, and in order to maintain the marriage made an arrangement that their spouse was free to find sex elsewhere.

As I aged and encountered more and more people, I have been surprised how often arrangments like these take place.

 

[KnitNut]

If you want to keep open the lines of communication, I recommend not charging in on the Outrage Pony, guns ablazing. No quicker way to shut things down. Taken to its end, it could mean losing contact with your grandchildren. Be careful with your hostility, at least for the kids’ sake.

One conversation that might be helpful involves asking if the couple want/intend for this to be common, public knowledge? Is the married couple “out” as having an open marriage in the community? Are they comfortable with bosses knowing, the kids’ teachers knowing, etc? You may be able to influence them to have more care, to protect the children from people who would mock or ridicule them for the parents’ choices. You all discovered this by accident, it wasn’t something the couple threw in your faces, exactly…so at the very least warning them of public discovery could prove useful.

As far as what’s going on in whose bedroom, I wouldn’t touch that with a zillion foot pole. There could be any number of reasons they’re taking this approach to their relationships. (As an aside, this isn’t as uncommon as you’d think - I have a surprising number of friends who have…unconventional…relationship structures. Even several otherwise devout Catholics. And they all report being happy, and have well-adjusted kids. So…relationships are dicey things under the best of circumstances, aren’t they.) I think it’s good that your son/DIL have a (reportedly) strong marriage - after 10 years, they’re still together and apparently happy. Which means there’s hope for the future.

Continue to be supportive grandparents. Pray. Remain calm. Expressing concern is reasonable. Hitting them over the head repeatedly is not likely to have the result you want. It’s OK to decline babysitting so they can do something you consider immoral, though. Or to calmly raise questions/observations, such as observing 3rd-party PDAs in public, etc. But the outrage…not going to help. And it’s totally unfair to blame DIL, when this is a mutual agreement between them. Your son is not the victim here, so don’t be the injured mother. Ask God what you should say, when to say it, and how.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We found out on Sunday morning. My son saw my DIL at the restaurant Saturday night, and he didn’t think she saw him. But my DIL left with the man shortly after, and as soon as she was out the door my older son called his brother to explain. I got the call from my younger son Sunday morning, and I confronted my older son Sunday night. He was very firm about it being none of our business and not being willing to discuss it outside of telling us that it was a mutual decision and she has never done anything he hasn’t fully supported. Ordinarily he would be right, when it is in public then the family needs to know how to respond. Her adultery is common knowledge, they made it everyone’s business. When I tried to mention what it might do to their kids, he just repeated that this was none of my business and he wasn’t willing to discuss it. My husband texted him Monday asking for a chance to talk with him without judgement, and my son called him to say that like he told me, it is none of our business and he is not willing to discuss their private life with us. They made it your business and it affects you.

Someone else mentioned paternity. Fortunately both of their kids look exactly like my son,If that were the indicator then Daytime TV would have a very calmer tone. Perhaps she has a “type” and in the short conversation we had Sunday night, he assured me that they were very happy together, their marriage was strong,Ha! and they’ve always been very careful about pregnancy and making sure that she isn’t with anyone else when they are trying to conceive. Contraceptives fail. I guess that is the ONLY silver lining in all of this. Nope that is not a silver lining

I really don’t think that he is going to allow me or my husband to say another word about this, on behalf of their kids or not. He’s made it clear that this is the way it is and that we are to treat his wife the way we always have.Funny that he thinks he can control that? I’m not sure I can do that, and I’m not sure my husband is, or will ever be, willing to even try.

 

[TinyTina]

Hoosier_Daddy:
But he can. We could lose our relationship with him and our grandkids if we don’t figure out how to respond in a way that gets our point across without being offensive. He has never let anyone say a word against her, and I’m sure he won’t start now.

Edit-I tried to quote Hoosier Daddy but it didn’t work. Anyway, this is a response to him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But he can. We could lose our relationship with him and our grandkids if we don’t figure out how to respond in a way that gets our point across without being offensive. He has never let anyone say a word against her, and I’m sure he won’t start now.

Edit-I tried to quote Hoosier Daddy but it didn’t work. Anyway, this is a response to him.

I know. It has got to be heartbreaking. I want you to know that I sympathize with you and as a parent this must be hard.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

If you want to keep open the lines of communication, I recommend not charging in on the Outrage Pony, guns ablazing. No quicker way to shut things down. Taken to its end, it could mean losing contact with your grandchildren. Be careful with your hostility, at least for the kids’ sake.

One conversation that might be helpful involves asking if the couple want/intend for this to be common, public knowledge? Is the married couple “out” as having an open marriage in the community? Are they comfortable with bosses knowing, the kids’ teachers knowing, etc? You may be able to influence them to have more care, to protect the children from people who would mock or ridicule them for the parents’ choices. You all discovered this by accident, it wasn’t something the couple threw in your faces, exactly…so at the very least warning them of public discovery could prove useful.

As far as what’s going on in whose bedroom, I wouldn’t touch that with a zillion foot pole. There could be any number of reasons they’re taking this approach to their relationships. (As an aside, this isn’t as uncommon as you’d think - I have a surprising number of friends who have…unconventional…relationship structures. Even several otherwise devout Catholics. And they all report being happy, and have well-adjusted kids. So…relationships are dicey things under the best of circumstances, aren’t they.) I think it’s good that your son/DIL have a (reportedly) strong marriage - after 10 years, they’re still together and apparently happy. Which means there’s hope for the future.

Continue to be supportive grandparents. Pray. Remain calm. Expressing concern is reasonable. Hitting them over the head repeatedly is not likely to have the result you want. It’s OK to decline babysitting so they can do something you consider immoral, though. Or to calmly raise questions/observations, such as observing 3rd-party PDAs in public, etc. But the outrage…not going to help. And it’s totally unfair to blame DIL, when this is a mutual agreement between them. Your son is not the victim here, so don’t be the injured mother. Ask God what you should say, when to say it, and how.

I think this is the best course of action. The issue should be protecting the children from embarrassment and continuing to be supportive of them. Bottom line if this is what the couple does (not that I agree with it) but they need to be a lot more careful. Trying to convince to consenting adults of how to run their marriage isn’t going to work and to keep drilling at it will only make the situation worse.

 

[EasterJoy]

But he can. We could lose our relationship with him and our grandkids if we don’t figure out how to respond in a way that gets our point across without being offensive. He has never let anyone say a word against her, and I’m sure he won’t start now.

Edit-I tried to quote Hoosier Daddy but it didn’t work. Anyway, this is a response to him.

I’d tell him that a husband who is willing to be cuckolded needs some serious counselling, a father who thinks his children won’t care that he let his wife run around on him in public is delusional, and a couple who think that they can throw a big wedding, let everyone witness their nonsenses vows about being true to each other, and then shamelessly flaunt the whole idea of fidelity in front of the whole world can expect that they’ve made that much of the business of their marriage the business of the whole world. Nobody else can tell them how to run their marriage, but they aren’t entitled to anyone’s respect, either. When you so loudly and grandly say one thing and then so publicly and shamelessly do just the opposite, people are going to talk to you about it. Get used to it.

Don’t say a word against her. Say the word to him. I would say, “You may think it is not my business, and maybe it isn’t, but just be warned that you are going to hear what I am saying from your children, too. If you want your son and your daughter sleeping around with everyone at their high school and to be rendered incapable of ever finding a stable relationship, you could hardly choose a better way to achieve it than what you are doing right now. They’ll go a long way to find someone with such a low self-concept as you have for yourself. Then you’ll find out the price you paid for this hare-brained experiment. There. I’ve said it. If you keep me from seeing my grandchildren because I told you even that much, shame on you for that, too, and shame on you for making the price they’ll pay even higher.”

The problem is that this horse is out of the barn. He can hardly rein her in now. Once you’ve said your piece, you can keep your peace. You can finish up with this, “OK, well, I’ll hold my peace, now that I’ve said it. You’ll need somebody around, because these are not situations that last. Not even Princess Diana could put up with this kind of garbage forever. I won’t say ‘I told you so,’ Son; that is why I’m saying something now. I’ll be there for you, because I cannot imagine how this has to be hurting you, and I am afraid it is going to get a lot worse. I don’t want you to go through that alone.”

 

[EasterJoy]

If you want to keep open the lines of communication, I recommend not charging in on the Outrage Pony, guns ablazing. No quicker way to shut things down…

It does depend on whether or not these parents have had a relationship with their children in which they can say things plainly–and I do mean in both directions, because strong talk needs to be two-way between adults. If your family doesn’t call BS on family members who are acting in ways that lack integrity and self-respect, then it is possible that the way is not paved to speak up about this so strongly. The OP may not be in a position to speak so plainly as others might be, that is true.

In that case, I would tone it down, yes. I would say much of the same thing, but use modifiers such as “I’m worried that…” and “I’m afraid of how high/low the chances are that…”

I would also be very clear (and hold myself to the claim) that I am saying what I am saying now with the understanding that he will not be hearing an “I told you so” later. No matter what he decides, no matter how this turns out, I want to be there to support him, and I will help him whether he takes my advice or totally spurns it. Then you need to do that, because he needs to know he won’t be shamed if he decides to admit that his way of handling this is not sustainable. He needs to know that safety net is there, and it needs to be secure and strong. That is how you support your adult children in their decisions. You give guidance when the decisions are being made, and support rather than criticism afterwards, because we all make bad decisions

 

[humble_maid]

I really don’t think that he is going to allow me or my husband to say another word about this, on behalf of their kids or not. He’s made it clear that this is the way it is and that we are to treat his wife the way we always have. I’m not sure I can do that, and I’m not sure my husband is, or will ever be, willing to even try.

Hi TinyTina,
I feel for you and your family. Right now,you should all concentrate on the grandchildren. If your eldest son and his so-called wife do not wish to discuss this then leave it and focus on the grandchildren. Even if you have to pretend being nice to them for their sake do so. Take every chance to be in your grandchildren’s lives so that you can teach them good values especially if you are practicing Catholics. Give them and your youngest son the example. Let nothing else phase you but to save the little ones. May I suggest that you ask to take the children to Church on Sunday or any other time. Just keep them placated enough so that they trust you with their children. Let God deal with them in time. Keep praying…God bless.

 

[TinyTina]

Hi TinyTina,
I feel for you and your family. Right now,you should all concentrate on the grandchildren. If your eldest son and his so-called wife do not wish to discuss this then leave it and focus on the grandchildren. Even if you have to pretend being nice to them for their sake do so. Take every chance to be in your grandchildren’s lives so that you can teach them good values especially if you are practicing Catholics. Give them and your youngest son the example. Let nothing else phase you but to save the little ones. May I suggest that you ask to take the children to Church on Sunday or any other time. Just keep them placated enough so that they trust you with their children. Let God deal with them in time. Keep praying…God bless.

I lost that fight years ago before their second was born. I am not allowed to take the kids to mass or teach them to pray. All I can do is be a good role model. That issue is what brought me here in the first place. I figured that you guys helped once before, so it couldn’t hurt to come back.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and prayers.

 

[JamalChristophr]

As we all know, sometimes things have to get worse in a person’s life before they get better. I think God allows people to break sometimes, then they’re open to receiving some grace.

Praying the rosary for your family will bring you some peace about the situation and store up a supply of grace for them when they are ready to receive it.

Pope Francis has a special devotion to Our Lady Undoer of Knots…

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[humble_maid]

I lost that fight years ago before their second was born. I am not allowed to take the kids to mass or teach them to pray. All I can do is be a good role model. That issue is what brought me here in the first place. I figured that you guys helped once before, so it couldn’t hurt to come back.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and prayers.

All is not lost. Like JamalChristophr posted, sometimes things have to get worse to get better. Believe that God, Christ is there for you. Also, pray the rosary daily; ask for others to pray for this cause either members of your family, church or others. The intercession of the Blessed Mother is what saved me and my child. I was in a dark place several years ago and thought it was a losing battle but many prayed for me and my family especially my eldest child. Thanks to the rosary and I believe through the intercession of Ste. Therese of Lisieux my child was saved and still needs help.

I will pray for you. I suggest that you go on the prayer forum and start a thread for others to pray. Do all in your power to bring prayers for their salvation.

God bless

 

[Lamentation]

How did you find out? Brother went around talking about it? Look, I wouldn’t be ok with hubby dating other people and I don’t feel like this is good in anyway, BUT it’s their choice and they seem fine with it. It really isn’t brother’s business to run to mom and tell her that other brother is in an unconventional marriage. And all parties not in the relationship should stay out of it. Pray for them and hope everything works out.

He does indeed have the right, and perhaps the moral obligation, to help his brother and sister-in-law to see the error of what they are taking part in. To not address it, or not call it what it is (or, frankly, isn’t), would be to ignore Jesus when he said “love one another”. With love meaning “to will the good of another”, how does ignoring the situation help “will the good” of his brother and his marriage?

Even with it being outside of the context of the Catholic faith, how exactly does this senario not (at the very least) confuse their children?

 

[EasterJoy]

I lost that fight years ago before their second was born. I am not allowed to take the kids to mass or teach them to pray. All I can do is be a good role model. That issue is what brought me here in the first place. I figured that you guys helped once before, so it couldn’t hurt to come back.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and prayers.

Once you have made it clear that a) they have departed from the way of God and the harm it will do to themselves and others and b) made it clear that you have said your piece and going to let them live their lives without an “I told you so” later when the wheels come off, you can leave the rest to God. This allows you to open your mouth instead of shutting the door.

It is far better to speak very clearly once and then step back than to try to “make your point” by covert aggression aimed at him and his wife. The goal is to be a prophet, not a prosecutor, and to admonish and guide, not to judge. This lets them have a conversation with you and to turn from their way later without having to eat an inordinate amount of humble pie to do it. That is the goal. You don’t want to undermine his sense that you think he has the standing to put his foot down, because feeling he has the authority to speak up is what he needs with his wife.

End the conversation with the assurance that you will bite your tongue with the “I told you so” routine if he decides not to take your advice and it doesn’t work out. Make it clear that you support him and want to be there for him as a fellow adult in your extended family, that you are speaking as if you would want him to do if he believed you were making a grave mistake. You want to keep your relationship strong and let him know that you hold him in esteem as a grown-up, but that everyone needs a word spoken to them from time to time. That is why adults have friends–to hold their feet to the fire and to help them keep it together when their decisions lead them over rough ground.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Your son is seriously fooling himself.

… he is betting the farm every time he lets her have her “fling”. Because in reality he is betting she won’t find a better deal, betting she won’t find better sex, or a better listener, or a better companion with neater interests and hobbies. A better provider with more money for the kids, a better soul mate.

Sooner or later, she will find that better deal and when she does what will compel her to honor her marriage vows? The sanctity of the marriage. . . don’t think so, that’s already been long thrown away.

One day your son will wake up, alone, with wife and kids gone and a man he barely knows with full access to half his property and a lifetime of poverty thanks to court ordered child support.

This.

So son won’t permit Catholicism? Then no discussion with him on Christian argument against adultery is possible. The quoted above is the best secular explanation why a wife cheating is such a bad idea. There is such a fundamental lack of respect for her husband and her status as a married woman here that I don’t know where to begin. But it is son’s life, he is an adult, he has entitled himself to his own train wreck, as painful as that sounds, just be prepared to deal with the fallout when it blows back on him.

 

[pianistclare]

Once you have made it clear that a) they have departed from the way of God and the harm it will do to themselves and others and b) made it clear that you have said your piece and going to let them live their lives without an “I told you so” later when the wheels come off, you can leave the rest to God. This allows you to open your mouth instead of shutting the door.

It is far better to speak very clearly once and then step back than to try to “make your point” by covert aggression aimed at him and his wife. The goal is to be a prophet, not a prosecutor, and to admonish and guide, not to judge. This lets them have a conversation with you and to turn from their way later without having to eat an inordinate amount of humble pie to do it. That is the goal. You don’t want to undermine his sense that you think he has the standing to put his foot down, because feeling he has the authority to speak up is what he needs with his wife.

End the conversation with the assurance that you will bite your tongue with the “I told you so” routine if he decides not to take your advice and it doesn’t work out. Make it clear that you support him and want to be there for him as a fellow adult in your extended family, that you are speaking as if you would want him to do if he believed you were making a grave mistake. You want to keep your relationship strong and let him know that you hold him in esteem as a grown-up, but that everyone needs a word spoken to them from time to time. That is why adults have friends–to hold their feet to the fire and to help them keep it together when their decisions lead them over rough ground.

YES.
And while it seems like it works for them TODAY, what happened when all involved lose their “attractiveness” to each other and their accomplices in this nonsense? What will make their lives “exciting”?
They’ll need the OP to remind them what their real worth is. What things last for eternity, and not for a few moments in this life.
Really terrible situation for all involved.

 

[on_the_hill]

And here is the thing, your son may be OK with this but he is betting the farm every time he lets her have her “fling”. Because in reality he is betting she won’t find a better deal, betting she won’t find better sex, or a better listener, or a better companion with neater interests and hobbies. A better provider with more money for the kids, a better soul mate.

Maybe that would be o.k. with Husband. Maybe he doesn’t really care if he’s married or not. It could be that it’s easier for him to be living with the arrangement than to make the effort to do the things that Wife wants or expects him to do.

I know two couples in unusual relationships. One I know in real life because they are related to me. One I know online.

The Online couple led an “alternative” lifestyle for several years (after their kids were grown–which is an important point.) Husband wanted to see what it would be like. Wife was willing to experiment. At this point, they are BTDT (been there done that) and have moved on with their lives. They don’t do anything like that anymore. She never lost interest in her husband, and he never lost interest in her.

The real life couple has one child. At least up until Wife was pregnant, she had had various infidelities. Husband knew, but chose to look the other way in order to preserve their marriage. He would have been mortified to know that anyone else knew about it. And very likely would have reacted like OP’s son: ‘leave us alone, everything is fine, mind your own business.’