DIL Cheating on my son, and he's ok with it!?

[MJJean]

Your son and his wife are adults. Their sex life is none of your business. If you or your husband treat them any differently they may simply stop contact with you. If his marriage ever does implode due to their lifestyle your son and grandchildren will need you and your husband. Don’t risk driving a wedge between you.

Your son has told you that he is in a happy marriage and he is fine with his wife being a “hot wife” (that’s the latest term I hear used for married women who are sexually available). He says he knows her latest lover, likes the man, and doesn’t mind. Take him at his word. The explanation he has given you is nearly verbatim the stock line of swingers when they are accidentally outed. Which means they are probably involved in online forums for others like themselves or are part of a local group. They likely put a lot of thought and discussion into their decision, really are happy this way, and do not want or need interference.

The fact that they told you his wife abstains with other men when they are trying to conceive suggests they have lived this lifestyle for many years. Nothing you say or do is going to change that at this point.

I know it’s difficult for you and the rest of your family, but all you can do is try to get along with them as you always have and pray.

 

[BellsMom]

Your son and his wife are adults. Their sex life is none of your business.

When I was a teenager one of my friends had parents who were in an open marriage. They were “swingers”.

They carried on this way for many years and probably believed that it was their own business as well.

The man who lived next door (who was having sex with my friends Mom) ended up seducing her when she was barely 14 years old and had a sexual relationship for with her for over a year. Her life became very unstable after the chaos that happened when her parents found out. She died in an awful circumstance before she was 19.

To say that these choices of the parents, when they have minor children in the their care are “no one else’s business” is just plain wrong.

What an awful situation. I don’t understand the damaged and twisted thinking of some parents. How can one be so oblivious to the fact that their actions will have life long effects on their kids?

 

[MJJean]

When I was a teenager one of my friends had parents who were in an open marriage. They were “swingers”.

They carried on this way for many years and probably believed that it was their own business as well.

The man who lived next door (who was having sex with my friends Mom) ended up seducing her when she was barely 14 years old and had a sexual relationship for with her for over a year. Her life became very unstable after the chaos that happened when her parents found out. She died in an awful circumstance before she was 19.

To say that these choices of the parents, when they have minor children in the their care are “no one else’s business” is just plain wrong.

What an awful situation. I don’t understand the damaged and twisted thinking of some parents. How can one be so oblivious to the fact that their actions will have life long effects on their kids?

First, the man who seduced your 14 year old friend was nothing short of a mentally ill criminal. That has nothing to do with her parents lifestyle. Just want to make that very clear. The majority of people who are swingers have children and do not in any way approve of sex with minor children.

Second, while I understand that what they are doing is morally wrong and sinful I also understand that they are fully functioning adults who are capable of conducting their marriage and raising their children as they see fit even if the moral law and the rest of society do not agree with their choices. They are aware their kids could find out and be adversely effected. They have chosen to continue on anyway.

Being confronted and shamed for their lifestyle will simply push them away from the family and closer to others who share their views. It’s not going to help.

Once the OP finds a way to express her opinion and concerns in a way that won’t drive her son and his family away from her she’ll have to let it drop and continue on or she and her husband will lose them. They won’t change their views or the way they live until they are ready and not a moment before.

 

[BellsMom]

First, the man who seduced your 14 year old friend was nothing short of a mentally ill criminal. That has nothing to do with her parents lifestyle.

I completely disagree. He wouldn’t have had that kind of access to her were it not for the fact that he was having sex with her Mom in their home. Perhaps she would have been more inclined to turn him away if she hadn’t become so used to the idea that her married Mom was having sex him and that was okay with everyone.

“If Mom and Dad are having sex with married people why not me?”

or

“He can’t be dangerous or bad right? Otherwise my Mom wouldn’t be having sex with him.”

or

“Who are they to say I can’t sleep with whoever I want? They do.”

BTW, I never said swingers were okay with people having sex with their kids. I would never assume such a thing. OTOH, when you continue to bring that lifestyle into your home even after you have kids around, you’re 100% responsible for the terrible things that can happen.

 

[on_the_hill]

It’s obviously not a good situation to have around kids, but to say with such certainty that it will lead them down the road to perdition is a knee jerk overstatement, and does little to build credibility.

Parents have always done bad things, and most of the time their kids don’t follow in their footsteps. Otherwise, civilization would have crashed centuries ago. And parents have always done good things, and some of the best parents have children who end up in prison, overdosing on drugs, abusing their spouses and children…etc.

And I definitely agree with the notion that pushing values onto the son at this point will drive him further and further away.

 

[on_the_hill]

“Who are they to say I can’t sleep with whoever I want? They do.”

Similarly, my mother has been abusing alcohol my whole life. It may very well kill her someday. I never once–not a single time–took a drink and thought, ‘Mom does it, why can’t I?’

 

[flyonthewall86]

I usually lurk around here, but this post really unnerved me for several reasons:

1. A lot of people jumped in on the pile down on the son. If my wife said, “I really want you to sleep with other women its attractive” I would be dialing the shrink before she finished that statement and would be livid at her offer. Regardless of what the son may or may not have “offered,” “allowed,” or “encouraged” the DIL is not some poor deceived soul here. She’s an adult that knows full well what she’s doing and is taking advantage of the situation. Son is enabling big time, but DIL ran in the complete opposite direction of the high road.
2. I am not sure why this is so surprising. Look at college dating life. Many are “serial monogamists” which to me is an oxymoron. College is in many ways a breading ground for these kinds of arrangements because if you aren’t “open minded” in their terms you get a verbal beat down. People (men and women) often date for the status. The other person is little more than a status symbol, toy, or means to an end for them. There is no reason to think because one graduates college that those tendencies get left behind. Source: I work in a college and from what I hear from my students none of this is the least bit surprising.

Lastly…

I’d like to add to this list of problems is concern for the husband’s reputation. What if his best friend, his rival, his boss, or a client of his had walked into the restaurant and saw his wife with another man instead of his brother? What would happen if word of the cuckold situation spread? How many people would really respect a man who knew that his wife was sleeping around and condoned (or worse, encouraged) it? Who would look down on him? Who might try to come onto the wife as some sort of power trip?

This could all just be so emasculating and humiliating for him.

Emasculating and humiliating men is society’s new favorite pastime because you know we have to pay for all that perceived “oppression.” Why would anyone care about that these days? A great deal of men castrate themselves in public. The media has probably done a far more detrimental job than this 1 woman has. Not excusing the DIL but your case is solely built on an appeal to pride (a sin) and ego. That is the last thing this situation needs more of.

 

[EasterJoy]

Similarly, my mother has been abusing alcohol my whole life. It may very well kill her someday. I never once–not a single time–took a drink and thought, ‘Mom does it, why can’t I?’

You are not saying that the children of alcoholics are neither at a higher risk for becoming alcoholics? Do you think your mother’s drinking was no one’s business but hers? It didn’t make a difference to you?

I cannot imagine the difference it would have made to me to know that my mother was habitually unfaithful to my father, and with his permission. It certainly would have made it far less likely that I’d consider fidelity an important aspect of marriage.

 

[twf]

There’s another issue here that I think most are missing. Yes this is a horribly immoral and unsafe practice, but from what the OP has said, the son, while Catholic, does not practice his faith and was not married in the Church. This marriage is thus invalid to begin with. That doesn’t mean that the family unit they have created, and especially the children they have raised together, is without value - not at all!..but there is no valid marriage from a Catholic perspective. The mother’s infidelity is not technically adultery, and even the sexual relations between this couple are objectively immoral. Stopping this very dangerous and immoral practice of an “open marriage” is definitely step one…but then the issue of their invalid marriage would have to be addressed.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

I’d like to add to this list of problems is concern for the husband’s reputation. What if his best friend, his rival, his boss, or a client of his had walked into the restaurant and saw his wife with another man instead of his brother? What would happen if word of the cuckold situation spread? How many people would really respect a man who knew that his wife was sleeping around and condoned (or worse, encouraged) it? Who would look down on him? Who might try to come onto the wife as some sort of power trip?

This could all just be so emasculating and humiliating for him.

A problem? No, for a man with his particular kink getting found out and humiliated is part of the thrill. Emasculation and humiliation is a major bonus for him. In fact all of the risks you listed earlier would all be part of the thrill. The risk of catching an STD, the risk of raising another man’s child. It would all be part of the thrill.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Your son and his wife are adults. Their sex life is none of your business.

Because we all know how much they object to other people getting involved in their sex life.

 

[on_the_hill]

You are not saying that the children of alcoholics are neither at a higher risk for becoming alcoholics? Do you think your mother’s drinking was no one’s business but hers? It didn’t make a difference to you?

I cannot imagine the difference it would have made to me to know that my mother was habitually unfaithful to my father, and with his permission. It certainly would have made it far less likely that I’d consider fidelity an important aspect of marriage.

They most certainly are more at risk. There’s no doubt about it. What I’m pointing out is that there is no certainty that they will, however.

I work with a woman who grew up in the most dysfunctional family imaginable. Father beat the mother frequently. Alcohol abuse. Drug abuse. Divorce. Poverty. Health problems. Mental illness. Incarceration. Her father’s been in jail. Her brother has been jail. Her first husband cheated on her and left her with two young children. She’s now married to an exemplary man with rock solid character, and she came through it all and lives a tremendously successful life.

We can’t assume that the OP’s grandchildren will end up in a bad way because of their parents’ open sex lives.

 

[EasterJoy]

They most certainly are more at risk. There’s no doubt about it. What I’m pointing out is that there is no certainty that they will, however.

I work with a woman who grew up in the most dysfunctional family imaginable. Father beat the mother frequently. Alcohol abuse. Drug abuse. Divorce. Poverty. Health problems. Mental illness. Incarceration. Her father’s been in jail. Her brother has been jail. Her first husband cheated on her and left her with two young children. She’s now married to an exemplary man with rock solid character, and she came through it all and lives a tremendously successful life.

We can’t assume that the OP’s grandchildren will end up in a bad way because of their parents’ open sex lives.

When your son is making bad parenting decisions, pointing out that sometimes children survive this remarkably well is hardly the tack to take. I can’t imagine that the woman you are talking about would say that what she went through did her no harm, right? Do you think she would tell an alcoholic parent that what the parents are doing in their “private” life is nothing to concern their minor children living in their home?

 

[MJJean]

I cannot imagine the difference it would have made to me to know that my mother was habitually unfaithful to my father, and with his permission. It certainly would have made it far less likely that I’d consider fidelity an important aspect of marriage.

Maybe. I know a few adults who were raised by parents in an openly open marriage. 3 of the 4 I know are now married and in traditional marriages. The 4th just finished his education and hasn’t met “the one” yet. They don’t have a problem with their parents choices and see marriage as whatever the couple agree to. They just prefer monogamous marriages for themselves.

Even if the OP’s grandchildren did grow up to be in non-traditional marriages they would be adults and free to make that decision.

Stopping this very dangerous and immoral practice of an “open marriage” is definitely step one…but then the issue of their invalid marriage would have to be addressed.

I thought of the invalid marriage, too, but didn’t mention it because the OP’s son and his wife are atheists. They believe their marriage to be valid and legally it is, so I don’t think the OP is going to get anywhere talking about valid vs invalid marriages, technical fornication vs adultery, etc.

A problem? No, for a man with his particular kink getting found out and humiliated is part of the thrill. Emasculation and humiliation is a major bonus for him. In fact all of the risks you listed earlier would all be part of the thrill. The risk of catching an STD, the risk of raising another man’s child. It would all be part of the thrill.

The son might not be a cuckold fetishist. He may simply believe that sexual exclusivity is not necessary in a marriage. Non-monogamous relationships aren’t necessarily about any fetish be it humiliation thrills or other. Some people believe that humans aren’t meant to be monogamous and that expecting lifelong sexual exclusivity is a recipe for disaster. So, to them, it’s logical to be open and honest about it.

Because we all know how much they object to other people getting involved in their sex life.

There is a difference between inviting someone to the party and having the party crashed.

The OP’s son didn’t choose to tell his mother about his arrangement with his wife. He was outed. He then specifically told his parents that he has made a lifestyle choice, is happy in his choice, and that it’s not up for debate.

It seems the son’s plan in case he was outed was to be honest and then ask that his family stay out of it. It doesn’t matter if his family of origin or any one of us agrees or disagrees. He and his wife are adults with the right to live their lives, conduct their marriage, and raise their children as they choose.

And I must say I respect this son’s honesty knowing his family wouldn’t approve. A lot of people in the same situation would have lied to cover it up and carried on as normal until the whole thing blew over.

 

[EasterJoy]

Maybe. I know a few adults who were raised by parents in an openly open marriage. 3 of the 4 I know are now married and in traditional marriages. The 4th just finished his education and hasn’t met “the one” yet. They don’t have a problem with their parents choices and see marriage as whatever the couple agree to. They just prefer monogamous marriages for themselves.

Even if the OP’s grandchildren did grow up to be in non-traditional marriages they would be adults and free to make that decision.

I thought of the invalid marriage, too, but didn’t mention it because the OP’s son and his wife are atheists. They believe their marriage to be valid and legally it is, so I don’t think the OP is going to get anywhere talking about valid vs invalid marriages, technical fornication vs adultery, etc.

The son might not be a cuckold fetishist. He may simply believe that sexual exclusivity is not necessary in a marriage. Non-monogamous relationships aren’t necessarily about any fetish be it humiliation thrills or other. Some people believe that humans aren’t meant to be monogamous and that expecting lifelong sexual exclusivity is a recipe for disaster. So, to them, it’s logical to be open and honest about it.

There is a difference between inviting someone to the party and having the party crashed.

The OP’s son didn’t choose to tell his mother about his arrangement with his wife. He was outed. He then specifically told his parents that he has made a lifestyle choice, is happy in his choice, and that it’s not up for debate.

It seems the son’s plan in case he was outed was to be honest and then ask that his family stay out of it. It doesn’t matter if his family of origin or any one of us agrees or disagrees. He and his wife are adults with the right to live their lives, conduct their marriage, and raise their children as they choose.

And I must say I respect this son’s honesty knowing his family wouldn’t approve. A lot of people in the same situation would have lied to cover it up and carried on as normal until the whole thing blew over.

If the OP’s daughter were letting this happen to her, I don’t think we’d be making conjectures that she’s letting her husband run around on her because she gets some sort of weird thrill out of the knowledge that he’s been with other women.

The son himself was not “outed.” His wife was found out because she does not even bother to be discrete. I don’t know that doing pre-emptive damage control with your family when your wife comes home and tells you that the cat is out of the bag with regards to her philandering is all that “honest,” either.

His family has no control over how he runs his marriage, but they do have standing to voice concern over the effect his choice might have on his children. My point is that this is not a standard that a total atheist could not take. Atheists do not just automatically think that every human is a law unto themselves or that open marriages are either a good idea or a moral choice. They would also totally understand that the family of one’s spouse might take a dim view of this arrangement, and find it a demeaning choice for their adult child or sibling to tolerate.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

If the OP’s daughter were letting this happen to her, I don’t think we’d be making conjectures that she’s letting her husband run around on her because she gets some sort of weird thrill out of the knowledge that he’s been with other women.

That’s because being made a cuckold is a purely male fantasy. Why would a woman fantasize about her husband devoting time and resources to another woman? Men, on the other hand, have had good reason to still desire their unfaithful spouse. That is, at least, if they want to ensure there is a chance the children they raise belong to them.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That’s because being made a cuckold is a purely male fantasy. Why would a woman fantasize about her husband devoting time and resources to another woman? Men, on the other hand, have had good reason to still desire their unfaithful spouse. That is, at least, if they want to ensure there is a chance the children they raise belong to them.

That is too simplistic. A woman can derive a huge sense of power by cuckolding a man. Akin to Dominatrix relationships or S&M fetishes.

 

[MJJean]

If the OP’s daughter were letting this happen to her, I don’t think we’d be making conjectures that she’s letting her husband run around on her because she gets some sort of weird thrill out of the knowledge that he’s been with other women.

The son himself was not “outed.” His wife was found out because she does not even bother to be discrete. I don’t know that doing pre-emptive damage control with your family when your wife comes home and tells you that the cat is out of the bag with regards to her philandering is all that “honest,” either.

His family has no control over how he runs his marriage, but they do have standing to voice concern over the effect his choice might have on his children. My point is that this is not a standard that a total atheist could not take. Atheists do not just automatically think that every human is a law unto themselves or that open marriages are either a good idea or a moral choice. They would also totally understand that the family of one’s spouse might take a dim view of this arrangement, and find it a demeaning choice for their adult child or sibling to tolerate.

Actually, some women do get a thrill out of knowing about or watching their husbands with other women. It’s the same type of fetish. It’s just more common in men. But, no, there doesn’t have to be a thrill or a fetish involved regardless of gender. Some people really do think lifelong monogamy is unnatural, unrealistic, and not something they believe possible in a marriage.

When a couple decides to have an open marriage if they don’t advertise the fact to families and friends they are “in the closet”. If they disclose voluntarily they are “out of the closet” and if they are found out by chance or snooping they are “outed”.

Yes, they were outed. Both husband and wife. Non-monogamy was their joint decision. He’s not “letting” anything happen to him. He’s not a victim. He made a choice with his wife. He’s a participant. He’s even met and likes her latest lover. Which isn’t that uncommon, either. Most swingers prefer to know who their spouses/SO’s are involved with and it is a safety issue if the wife will be alone at another location with her partner at some point.

The son told the OP that they have agreed to this lifestyle, that he is free to also engage in extramarital activity and doesn’t want to (at this time, anyways, that could change), that they are happy, and that his wife abstains with other men when they are trying to conceive and is very careful re: birth control when they are not. (Which typically means using condoms in conjunction with another form of ABC as a back-up)

Knowing people who live this lifestyle, I don’t see anything in what the OP reported her son saying that isn’t stock swinger phrasing. Using the stock phrases tells me they are involved in the swinger culture. Not just the wife, but both of them.

And I see a lot of indications that this has been the lifestyle they are involved in for a good while, such as the fact that they abstain when TTC and his calm when being outed.

Of course it’s not an atheist thing. I was atheist most of my adult life and the first 10 years of my marriage. While I know people who are in non-monogamous marriages and happy that way, I certainly couldn’t have done it with my DH. I figure if you’re going to be non-monogamous, why marry?

Swinging is something people of all faiths and no faith do. It’s an activity participated in by people of all races, sexual orientations, incomes, education levels, and ages. But the OP’s son and wife *are *atheists and coming at the situation from a religious point of view isn’t likely to have much effect. Secular arguments against non-monogamy have probably already been discussed during their decision making process.

Yes, the OP has standing as Grandma to voice her concerns for her son, her DIL, and her grandkids. The problem is that after she has done so, that’s it. They’re adults, it’s their marriage, and those are their kids. If they have considered all the risks and still decided that this is the lifestyle they want to participate in, all OP can do is accept it and pray or lose part of her family.

Hopefully, they’ll abandon the practice and come to know God again. But if they don’t is this a hill the OP and her husband are willing to die on? I hope not, because I only know of two marriages and one LTR live in situation still intact after being open. Chances are, the OP’s son and the grandkids will need her and her husbands love and support in the future when/if this all blows up in his face.

 

[on_the_hill]

If the OP’s daughter were letting this happen to her, I don’t think we’d be making conjectures that she’s letting her husband run around on her because she gets some sort of weird thrill out of the knowledge that he’s been with other women.

The son himself was not “outed.” His wife was found out because she does not even bother to be discrete. I don’t know that doing pre-emptive damage control with your family when your wife comes home and tells you that the cat is out of the bag with regards to her philandering is all that “honest,” either.

His family has no control over how he runs his marriage, but they do have standing to voice concern over the effect his choice might have on his children. My point is that this is not a standard that a total atheist could not take. Atheists do not just automatically think that every human is a law unto themselves or that open marriages are either a good idea or a moral choice. They would also totally understand that the family of one’s spouse might take a dim view of this arrangement, and find it a demeaning choice for their adult child or sibling to tolerate.

That’s because being made a cuckold is a purely male fantasy. Why would a woman fantasize about her husband devoting time and resources to another woman? Men, on the other hand, have had good reason to still desire their unfaithful spouse. That is, at least, if they want to ensure there is a chance the children they raise belong to them.

That is too simplistic. A woman can derive a huge sense of power by cuckolding a man. Akin to Dominatrix relationships or S&M fetishes.

Right, but I think EJ’s point is that a woman is far, far less likely to enjoy being the “cuckolded” spouse. In a situation like that, we’d simply think the husband a cad and not look for ulterior motives on the wife’s part.

 

[MJJean]

That’s because being made a cuckold is a purely male fantasy. Why would a woman fantasize about her husband devoting time and resources to another woman? Men, on the other hand, have had good reason to still desire their unfaithful spouse. That is, at least, if they want to ensure there is a chance the children they raise belong to them.

Plus there’s “hysterical bonding” and “sperm competition”.

But, yes, some women do like being “cuckolded”. They like seeing their man please another woman and seem to get pleasure from watching the pleasure of others, giving the man such a “gift”, with no obligation to perform.

I know a couple such women and I simply don’t get it, but whatever.

That is too simplistic. A woman can derive a huge sense of power by cuckolding a man. Akin to Dominatrix relationships or S&M fetishes.

Some theorize that men and women into being cuckolded or dominated like it because they are always so in control and responsible for so much it’s like a break for them. They can totally relinquish control, aren’t obligated to do anything, don’t have to see to anyone’s needs, don’t have to make decisions, etc. Maybe it’s a coping mechanism and a form of complete stress relief.

Some people should just try Yoga or cross-fit or a fitness boot camp with a former DI trainer.