Dilemma first cause and free will

[davidv]

What you mean with allowed and is still.

allowed = To let do or happen; permit
still = continuing now or in the future as in the past (from the human perspective only)

God is in state of timeless. The act existence of God and act creation of universe lies on the same point. There is no before and after for God.

Seems to me you are confining God to time. Where is the “point” that you refer to above?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself, he then gives us the greatest commandments, to return God’s love. And we are also commanded to love all our neighbours as God loves them all.

We are free to break these commandments, even though it will lead to injustice.

 

[Bahman]

Seems to me you are confining God to time. Where is the “point” that you refer to above?

That is your definition of God, whether you like it or not. God is perfect, changeless and timeless. These are consistent with each other. Being in state of timeless however means that there is no before and after for God hence the act existence of God must lay with act creation (this is a better phrasing).

 

[Bahman]

If God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself, he then gives us the greatest commandments, to return God’s love. And we are also commanded to love all our neighbours as God loves them all.

We are free to break these commandments, even though it will lead to injustice.

Are you making an argument?

 

[davidv]

That is your definition of God, whether you like it or not.

I don’t think you understand the Church’s description of God. By the way God, cannot be “defined”, as we cannot comphrend the totality of what and who God is.

God is perfect, changeless and timeless. These are consistent with each other.

True. But none of the following flows from those facts.

Being in state of timeless however means that there is no before and after for God hence the act existence of God must lay with act creation (this is a better phrasing).

How does this response address my point? Do you understand my point? Can you restate my point in your words?

 

[Bahman]

I don’t think you understand the Church’s description of God. By the way God, cannot be “defined”, as we cannot comphrend the totality of what and who God is.

Why you then bother to defend the concept of God intellectually? Just depend on God who rules inside your heart.

True. But none of the following flows from those facts.

Which facts?

How does this response address my point? Do you understand my point? Can you restate my point in your words?

What was your point? Could you please elaborate?

 

[davidv]

Why you then bother to defend the concept of God intellectually? Just depend on God who rules inside your heart.

Which facts?

What was your point? Could you please elaborate?

I think this proves that you do not want to understand the objections to your proposals. Many posters have clearly articulated valid, logical objections to your OP. Yet, all that happens is repetition of the original claim. No counters to the objections are offered, nor is any supporting evidence for the OP presented. I find this method disrespectful and dishonest.

 

[Bahman]

I think this proves that you do not want to understand the objections to your proposals. Many posters have clearly articulated valid, logical objections to your OP. Yet, all that happens is repetition of the original claim. No counters to the objections are offered, nor is any supporting evidence for the OP presented. I find this method disrespectful and dishonest.

So you are judging me so awfully!

 

[davidv]

So you are judging me so awfully!

No, I judged what you wrote and how you wrote it.

 

[Bahman]

Me going mad? Me going away? I am standing here. So far you haven’t presented any argument except, God is God. Is that is all you can do?

 

[ready]

And it is precisely our ability to go against God’s will in choosing not to align our will with His, that demonstrates that fallacy in the OP.

Yes, that’s right, David. God bless you!

 

[Bahman]

Yes, that’s right, David. God bless you!

It could be your fallacy if you think a little dipper!Doubt is the door toward divine justice.

 

[ready]

Dear Brahman,

So what you are saying is that God acts under constraint. Don’t you see that if this were true, then Almighty God would not be Almighty God. Every Catholic knows that God acts and gives freely out of love and without constraint. Yes, everything He gives us and does for us is a grace (a free gift) given out of love, not out of constraint. Our Lord’s relationship with Blessed Virgin Mary is very unique in that her prayers are like commands to Him, so to speak. God bless you.

 

[Bahman]

Dear Brahman,

So what you are saying is that God acts under constraint.

Well. What I am saying is that the god you define is under constraint. I am open to discuss it further.

Don’t you see that if this were true, then Almighty God would not be Almighty God. Every Catholic knows that God acts and gives freely out of love and without constraint. Yes, everything He gives us is a grace (a free gift) given out of love, not out of constraint. God bless you.

Well. I understand that. But I cannot help this unless you provide a better definition of God.

 

[ready]

Well. What I am saying is that the god you define is under constraint. I am open to discuss it further.

Well. I understand that. But I cannot help this unless you provide a better definition of God.

Okay, we both can agree that God is Love/Charity, right? St. John the Evangelist says this, and we know that what he says is true, right? Because God is Love/Charity we can understand something which will help you to understand that God (Love/Charity) does not do what He does (love) under constraint. How do we know this? Because if I am ** forced **to love you (to love you under constraint), then I am not loving you. Love has to be given freely for it to be love. God is Love/Charity and what He does (love) must be done freely for Him to be Love/Charity … and we know that He is Love/Charity, so we know that what He does (love) is done freely and not under constraint. Do you understand?

 

[Bahman]

Okay, we both can agree that God is Love/Charity, right?

No, that is the wrong definition. God is: consciousness, as a faculty which sits on the top. In the middle we have, feeling, mind and power. These are utility of consciousness. On the bottom we have the subconsciousness, as a faculty again.

St. John the Evangelist says this, and we know that what he says is true, right?

Well, he could be wrong. I leave that to your judgment.

Because God is Love/Charity we can understand something which will help you to understand that God (Love/Charity) does not do what He does (love) under constraint.

Well, love is a kind of feeling which is a utility of consciousness and subconsciousness. Love has no meaning without the laters.

How do we know this? Because if I am ** forced **to love you (to love you under constraint), then I am not loving you.

Well, we were talking about whether God is free or not. Love of course acts as a constraint. Have you ever been in love?

Nevertheless he is the creator by definition. What God could mean otherwise? He would be me or you otherwise without the power to create. Now, we are at starting point. Is God the first cause or not?

Love has to be given freely for it to be love. God is Love/Charity and what He does (love) must be done freely for Him to be Love/Charity … and we know that He is Love/Charity, so we know that what He does (love) is done freely and not under constraint.

He acts and feels. You cannot act love or love act.

Do you understand?

Hem? Please also use the quotation method so I can follow you better.

 

[ready]

No, that is the wrong definition. God is: consciousness, as a faculty which sits on the top. In the middle we have, feeling, mind and power. These are utility of consciousness. On the bottom we have the subconsciousness, as a faculty again.

Well, he could be wrong. I leave that to your judgment.

Well, love is a kind of feeling which is a utility of consciousness and subconsciousness. Love has no meaning without the laters.

Well, we were talking about whether God is free or not. Love of course acts as a constraint. Have you ever been in love?

Nevertheless he is the creator by definition. What God could mean otherwise? He would be me or you otherwise without the power to create. Now, we are at starting point. Is God the first cause or not?

He acts and feels. You cannot act love or love act.

Hem? Please also use the quotation method so I can follow you better.

You’re not even Catholic, you speak against basic Catholic truths that any child knows are true about God. You sound like you belong in some Eastern cult, preaching the way you do that God is consciousness and not Love/Charity. Love isn’t even merely a feeling like you say it is–it is in the Will–it is willing the greatest good for another and in sacrificing and being committed–it is not just a warm, fuzzy sentimental feeling. You are so wrong and un-Catholic in all that you have said in your post to me that I’m sorry but I can not even begin to try to help you. If you can not even accept the Scriptures as the inspired word of God, infallible and reliable, then I know I will not be able to get anywhere with you. I feel bad for you that you are so lost in error. I will pray for you. May our Lady enlighten you and help you. Please stop your wrong thinking and learn your Catholic faith and keep far away from heresy. God bless you.

 

[Bahman]

You’re not even Catholic, you speak against basic Catholic truths that any child knows are true about God. You sound like you belong in some Eastern cult, preaching the way you do that God is consciousness and not Love/Charity. Love isn’t even merely a feeling like you say it is–it is in the Will–it is willing the greatest good for another and in sacrificing and being committed–it is not just a warm, fuzzy sentimental feeling. You are so wrong and un-Catholic in all that you have said in your post to me that I’m sorry but I can not even begin to try to help you. If you can not even accept the Scriptures as the inspired word of God, infallible and reliable, then I know I will not be able to get anywhere with you. I feel bad for you that you are so lost in error. I will pray for you. May our Lady enlighten you and help you. Please stop your wrong thinking and learn your Catholic faith and keep far away from heresy. God bless you.

How do you define love?

I define consciousness as a being with the ability to experience and affect mental state.

Please just judge yourself as I do it very hard to myself.

Could we stick to definition and discussion?

 

[ready]

How do you define love?

I define consciousness as a being with the ability to experience and affect mental state.

Please just judge yourself as I do it very hard to myself.

Could we stick to definition and discussion?

My friend, I stick to the Catholic faith and to the traditions of the Church, just as St. Paul exhorts us to do. I have already told you what love/charity is and isn’t, but you refuse to accept basic Catholic teaching. It is basic Catholic teaching that God is Love/Charity. And what is meant by love/charity is CHARITY (love rooted in God), not the love we have for ice-cream and music. I want to help you, but I can’t because you are not willing to accept Catholic teaching for what it is–true and reliable. You have your own ideas about God and other things, and you hold fast to them. What you need is grace to enlighten you and help you, so I definitely will pray for you. But you still will need to cooperate with grace. As I am my brother’s keeper, I care about you and your soul. So pease listen to me when I say that you must learn your Catholic faith. Please buy the Baltimore Catechism #3 and read it, and keep away from Eastern ideas and heretical ideas–they will send you to Hell, which neither of us wants. BTW, I think it would help you very much if you got rid of that little devil and substituted in a picture of Mary, our Mother and Queen. God bless you!

 

[blase6]

My friend, I stick to the Catholic faith and to the traditions of the Church, just as St. Paul exhorts us to do. I have already told you what love/charity is and isn’t, but you refuse to accept basic Catholic teaching. It is basic Catholic teaching that God is Love/Charity. And what is meant by love/charity is CHARITY (love rooted in God), not the love we have for ice-cream and music. I want to help you, but I can’t because you are not willing to accept Catholic teaching for what it is–true and reliable. You have your own ideas about God and other things, and you hold fast to them. What you need is grace to enlighten you and help you, so I definitely will pray for you. But you still will need to cooperate with grace. As I am my brother’s keeper, I care about you and your soul. So pease listen to me when I say that you must learn your Catholic faith. Please buy the Baltimore Catechism #3 and read it, and keep away from Eastern ideas and heretical ideas–they will send you to Hell, which neither of us wants. BTW, I think it would help you very much if you got rid of that little devil and substituted in a picture of Mary, our Mother and Queen. God bless you!

Just because you don’t believe 100% percent of Catholic dogma does not mean that you will definitely go to hell. If that is the case, all babies who die and people who are unaware of Church teaching go to hell.