You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
S
STT
Guest
Without time no.So, motion never really moves.
L
lmelahn
Guest
The problem is that we have subtly introduced a third element, “existence,” that (according to this assumption) is prior to both God and creatures.We are not talking about only God. We are talking about existence including God. Lets subtract God from the case that God does not create and we have only God. We have “no thing” in this case after exclusion. The situation is ill defined if “no thing” and universe exist at the same point. What have you at the beginning? “not thing” and universe at the same time! Therefore we need “then” to go from state of “no thing” to universe.
However, there can be nothing prior to God in any way.
Or else, said in different terms, we can’t subtract God from the equation, because the creatures’ very existence—for which they depend radically on God—is a gift of God, which he gives continually. Creation does not just mean that God brings things into existence at a given point in time; He also (and more to the point) constantly maintains them in existence.
Also, the “existence” of God is very different from our own. We use the same term because of the poverty of our intellects and of our language, and also because our own existence is a faint echo of the God’s own Being. Nevertheless, God is Being Itself, which is very different from saying (in our own case) that we have or possess being, received from God.
Going back to you question, I think you are imagining a scenario something like this (and please correct me if I am misrepresenting your position):
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I think a much better way to characterize creation is as follows:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Notice that there are only two entities: God, and the universe (well, OK, the universe is a multitude of entities, but for our purposes we can group it together). Outside of these two entities, there is no third possibility, nothing “prior” to either one: whether that be “time” or “existence.”
Also observe that God only acts once to produce the entire history of the universe, and the act of creation applies equally well to all points of time in that history. (It is a limitation of this medium that I have to distinguish God from His act of creating, but in reality that act coincides perfectly with Himself.)
Also observe that the universe does not pass from “nothing” to “existence.” It simply exists, because God makes it exist. Also note that although it seems that modern physics supports the notion that our universe has a beginning point, there is really nothing preventing God from putting the red arrow in both directions. (I.e., He could create a universe that extends infinitely into the past.)
S
STT
Guest
I think that we can agree with that “God alone” is default state, existence. God however can create or not depending on His decision. We have “God and creation” if God decide to create. We cannot consider “God alone” and “God and creation” at the same eternal point since the state at that point becomes ill-defined therefor one case must follow another one.The problem is that we have subtly introduced a third element, “existence,” that (according to this assumption) is prior to both God and creatures.
However, there can be nothing prior to God in any way.
Or else, said in different terms, we can’t subtract God from the equation, because the creatures’ very existence—for which they depend radically on God—is a gift of God, which he gives continually. Creation does not just mean that God brings things into existence at a given point in time; He also (and more to the point) constantly maintains them in existence.
Also, the “existence” of God is very different from our own. We use the same term because of the poverty of our intellects and of our language, and also because our own existence is a faint echo of the God’s own Being. Nevertheless, God is Being Itself, which is very different from saying (in our own case) that we have or possess being, received from God.
Going back to you question, I think you are imagining a scenario something like this (and please correct me if I am misrepresenting your position):
I think a much better way to characterize creation is as follows:
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2882/34120103152_d33d638653_o_d.png
Notice that there are only two entities: God, and the universe (well, OK, the universe is a multitude of entities, but for our purposes we can group it together). Outside of these two entities, there is no third possibility, nothing “prior” to either one: whether that be “time” or “existence.”
Also observe that God only acts once to produce the entire history of the universe, and the act of creation applies equally well to all points of time in that history. (It is a limitation of this medium that I have to distinguish God from His act of creating, but in reality that act coincides perfectly with Himself.)
Also observe that the universe does not pass from “nothing” to “existence.” It simply exists, because God makes it exist. Also note that although it seems that modern physics supports the notion that our universe has a beginning point, there is really nothing preventing God from putting the red arrow in both directions. (I.e., He could create a universe that extends infinitely into the past.)
L
lmelahn
Guest
Well, it makes a difference for us whether God creates or not, I agree.I think that we can agree with that “God alone” is default state, existence. God however can create or not depending on His decision. We have “God and creation” if God decide to create. We cannot consider “God alone” and “God and creation” at the same eternal point since the state at that point becomes ill-defined therefor one case must follow another one.
Note that it makes no difference to God. Therefore, from God’s perspective it is completely meaningless to speak of “before” creation, since there is no “before” or “after,” of any kind, in God.
Even for us, creation does not occur at a “moment” in the past. Creation is occurring now, continually, because God is sustaining our existence.
S
STT
Guest
So do you agree that “God and creation” follows “Gods alone”?Well, it makes a difference for us whether God creates or not, I agree.
Note that it makes no difference to God. Therefore, from God’s perspective it is completely meaningless to speak of “before” creation, since there is no “before” or “after,” of any kind, in God.
Even for us, creation does not occur at a “moment” in the past. Creation is occurring now, continually, because God is sustaining our existence.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
No, it does not follow. Creation is God’s will, and God’s will is unchanging. God did not will to be alone then will to create. Creation is eternally God’s will and always has been. God is eternal and not subject to time, which is part of creation.So do you agree that “God and creation” follows “Gods alone”?
The “beginning” of our known universe, the forming of planet earth, your grandparents birth, your birth, our sun becoming a white dwarf, etc… appears to happen chronologically to us, but God experiences everything simultaneously. Everything just is.
God does not come to know things or gain knowledge. God always knew all of and willed all of creation, and creation is because of this.
S
STT
Guest
I didn’t say that God wills to be. I said that “God alone” is the default state. God can create or not depending on his decision. God created therefore we have “God and creation” as a secondary state. These two states however cannot be in an eternal point since the state of system becomes ill-defined. Therefore the second state must follow the first one.No, it does not follow. Creation is God’s will, and God’s will is unchanging. God did not will to be alone then will to create. Creation is eternally God’s will and always has been. God is eternal and not subject to time, which is part of creation.
The “beginning” of our known universe, the forming of planet earth, your grandparents birth, your birth, our sun becoming a white dwarf, etc… appears to happen chronologically to us, but God experiences everything simultaneously. Everything just is.
God does not come to know things or gain knowledge. God always knew all of and willed all of creation, and creation is because of this.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
You cannot limit a non-physical God to an existence within the created physical constraints of time.I didn’t say that God wills to be. I said that “God alone” is the default state. God can create or not depending on his decision. God created therefore we have “God and creation” as a secondary state. These two states however cannot be in an eternal point since the state of system becomes ill-defined. Therefore the second state must follow the first one.
A non-physical God cannot pre-date time, for the very concept of pre-dating something relies on time.
You reference two states, implying that God changes/has changed: God willed to be alone, then through some development in knowledge or opinion decided to change His will to not be alone and to have creation?
S
STT
Guest
That (bold part) is another topic. I have a thread on this topic in here.You cannot limit a non-physical God to an existence within the created physical constraints of time.
A non-physical God cannot pre-date time, for the very concept of pre-dating something relies on time.
You reference two states, implying that God changes/has changed: God willed to be alone, then through some development in knowledge or opinion decided to change His will to not be alone and to have creation?
What I arguing is that you cannot have two different states of existence at a same eternal point.
J
John_Martin
Guest
Too bad that deciding is a human activity, not a God-activityI didn’t say that God wills to be. I said that “God alone” is the default state. God can create or not depending on his decision. God created therefore we have “God and creation” as a secondary state. These two states however cannot be in an eternal point since the state of system becomes ill-defined. Therefore the second state must follow the first one.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Until you can understand, or at least assent to the fact that God simply IS, you will continue to see these apparent contradictions and dilemmas, though they do not, in actuality, exist.That (bold part) is another topic. I have a thread on this topic in here.
What I arguing is that you cannot have two different states of existence at a same eternal point.
O
o_mlly
Guest
Simple, first create time and space. See Genesis for the subsequent acts of creation.Any act has a before and after therefore you need time in order perform it, otherwise the act is ambiguous. How could God perform the act of creation knowing that any act is subjected to time and time is an element of universe?
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
The Simplicity of God
…We say of a contingent being that it has a certain nature or essence, but of the self-existent we say that it is its own nature or essence. There is no composition therefore of essence and existence — or of potentiality and actuality — in God, nor can the composition of genus and specific difference, implied for example in the definition of man as a rational animal, be attributed to Him. God cannot be classified or defined, as contingent beings are classified and defined; for there is no aspect of being in which He is perfectly similar to the finite, and consequently no genus in which He can be included. From this it follows that we cannot know God adequately in the way in which He knows Himself, but not, as the Agnostic contends, that our inadequate knowledge is not true as far as it goes. In speaking of a being who transcends the limitations of formal logical definition our propositions are an expression of real truth, provided that what we state is in itself intelligible and not self-contradictory; and there is nothing unintelligible or contradictory in what Theists predicate of God…
S
STT
Guest
What is the deference between God and Cosmic Force?Too bad that deciding is a human activity, not a God-activity
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Cosmic Force is created, God is self-existingWhat is the deference between God and Cosmic Force?
S
STT
Guest
I know that God simply IS. I am talking about two different states of existence.Until you can understand, or at least assent to the fact that God simply IS, you will continue to see these apparent contradictions and dilemmas, though they do not, in actuality, exist.
S
STT
Guest
The problem is that you need time to create time and space.Simple, first create time and space. See Genesis for the subsequent acts of creation.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
God does not need time to create time and space.The problem is that you need time to create time and space.
J
John_Martin
Guest
I have a house complete in my mind, fully complete in all its detail, structure and finshes.
I have a full set of blueprints for all parts of the house, including what it will appear like.
On day one, a carpenter looked at the structural print and began framing the house
On day twenty, an electrician looked at the electrical diagrams and began routing wires and breaker panels
On day thirty, a plumber looked at the plumbing prints and began routing pipes.
On day forty-five, a mason looked at the exterior elevations and fireplace design and began laying brick.
On day forty-six, men began looking at the interior plans and started attaching dry-wall, tape, and mud.
On day seventy-five, the painters began looking at the finishing plans and began mixing colors and painting.
On day one hundred it was exactly as the plans showed, and it burned down.
God is One, knowing the whole. Creation is in its “now” (whatever day it is) knowing only one part of the finished knowing of God, not seeing anything else in God, and moving in that little bit of the knowing of God, to be what God knows it to be in that little bit of the knowing of God.
Then on another day of the creature, of creation, it is looking at itself somewhere else in the full knowing of God, and moving itself to match the knowing.
We exist by participating in the knowing of God, yet we move by days, by time, from “point to point” in the single knowing of God, who is ‘I AM’. (His NAME, delightful)
I have a full set of blueprints for all parts of the house, including what it will appear like.
On day one, a carpenter looked at the structural print and began framing the house
On day twenty, an electrician looked at the electrical diagrams and began routing wires and breaker panels
On day thirty, a plumber looked at the plumbing prints and began routing pipes.
On day forty-five, a mason looked at the exterior elevations and fireplace design and began laying brick.
On day forty-six, men began looking at the interior plans and started attaching dry-wall, tape, and mud.
On day seventy-five, the painters began looking at the finishing plans and began mixing colors and painting.
On day one hundred it was exactly as the plans showed, and it burned down.
God is One, knowing the whole. Creation is in its “now” (whatever day it is) knowing only one part of the finished knowing of God, not seeing anything else in God, and moving in that little bit of the knowing of God, to be what God knows it to be in that little bit of the knowing of God.
Then on another day of the creature, of creation, it is looking at itself somewhere else in the full knowing of God, and moving itself to match the knowing.
We exist by participating in the knowing of God, yet we move by days, by time, from “point to point” in the single knowing of God, who is ‘I AM’. (His NAME, delightful)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.