Dilemma of time and the act of creation

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lmelahn said:
Remember, God is not changed by His creation in any way whatsoever.

God is “before” creation, in the sense that creation depends radically on Him. However, He is not necessarily “before” creation in time—since He is entirely outside of time. (He has to be outside of time, precisely because He is utterly immutable.)
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Yes. Time, temporal, is a human construct. Our concept of time and God’s Time. A day in Creation is described as the completion of a series of Creative Acts. And of the difference between sources of earthly light.

If STT , you really believe we can quantify God’s Time. Tell me, given we are immortal, we will exist for eternity, what does that mean to you in the concept of time?
 
lmelahn said:
In order to have a true change or motion, there has to be a prior state and a posterior state.

For instance, when ice melts, there is a prior state (fully frozen ice) and a posterior state (liquid water). In the case of material things, there can also be intermediate states (part ice / part liquid water). However, having the intermediate states is not an essential part of having a true change. (For example, death does not have an intermediate state between the living organism and the cadaver.)

However, creation is not a true “change”*because there is no prior state. “Nothingness” is not a thing. Creatures do “pass” from nothingness to existence. Rather, thanks to creation, things simply are.
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“No thing” is a thing otherwise the act of creation is meaningless.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
I haven’t read all the replies. But your premise is in error in that Time is a man made construct. Time is not a physical element. But it is a physical quality that can be incorporated into the measurement of other physical properties, ie flow rate, vectors, velocity ect. , It is rather a temporal measurement. Something we use like language, to understand each other.

Time requires what? To exist?

Time as a scale exists as a two way street.

If you were to travel x light years and land on a planet, look back at the Earth in a good Telescope, you could see for example , the Ark crashing into a Turkish Mth, that high tower, the destruction of the Temple, or even a dinosaur or two roaming around.

So your act has a before and after and during, depending on the direction and distance you travel to see it
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I don’t think that that time is only a variable that allows us to formulate a physical theory for motion. It is something which allows that fabrics of universe move in a steady way.
 
STT said:
I don’t think that that time is only a variable that allows us to formulate a physical theory for motion. It is something which allows that fabrics of universe move in a steady way.
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First semester first year physics .

Time is a scale, a human construct. Might be time for you to walk into a physics class.

No pun intended:stopwatch::mantelpiece_clock:⏰⌛
 
STT said:
Great. So you have God and then God plus Creation.
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Not really; you always have God knowing and loving, eternally - that is all there ever is, even now.

In the material and temporal, there is nothing, nothing moving, nothing changing, nothing being, and no space for anything;
and then, in the beginning of time you have everything material, and everything not God, moving toward perfection and then vanishing like a vapor, each in its turn.
Pooof - nothing and then everything. (no time, no space, no matter - then all; time, space, matter, movement)

God cannot be added to Creation, nor can Creation added to God.
If you were able to add creation to God, the total would only be God, nothing greater.
 
John_Martin said:
Not really; you always have God knowing and loving, eternally - that is all there ever is, even now.

In the material and temporal, there is nothing, nothing moving, nothing changing, nothing being, and no space for anything;
and then, in the beginning of time you have everything material, and everything not God, moving toward perfection and then vanishing like a vapor, each in its turn.
Pooof - nothing and then everything. (no time, no space, no matter - then all; time, space, matter, movement)

God cannot be added to Creation, nor can Creation added to God.
If you were able to add creation to God, the total would only be God, nothing greater.
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Could you please define the act of creation?
 
STT said:
Could you please define the act of creation?
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Just as the Soul is the Act of the Body, God is the Act of Creation (you experience it as it currently appears because it is known that way to God, and moved to this actuality by God knowing it - and since he knows it in its form informing its material, materially you experience it moving toward equality with its form.)

By “act of creation”, in current English usage, we might say, “the actuality of material being”.

If you mean by “act of creation”, the moment when something begins existence where there is nothing, that might more readily be termed the “moment of creation”.

“Act” means more properly “form perfected in the individual.”
 
STT said:
Great. So you have God and then God plus Creation.
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I agree, all except for the word “then,” which implies a temporal succession.

We are not to imagine that God “endures” through endless time. He simply is, in perfect beatitude, without change. Still less are we to imagine that one day it “occurred to him”*to create.

Rather, the act by which God creates the universe, although it is absolutely free, nevertheless itself exists for all eternity (because it is absolutely identical with Himself).

Creation, by the way, could be defined as causing things to exist, in the absolute sense: that is, without drawing in any way from some pre-existing thing.

Again, there is nothing preventing God from doing this in such a way that time extends infinitely into the past and future (although we know by revelation that, at a minimum, there will be a temporal end to the universe at some point in the future).
 
STT said:
What do you mean with that time is scale?
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Time is a scale. And exists, as do numbers, in both directions.

Yesterday, today, tomorrow. We quantify these with how many,

Ie Today was ANZAC Day in Australia. Services and Marches in remembrance of Sacrifices of our Military.

The youngest 'marcher was a baby, a great grandson of a service person, or a baby of a serving person. Then there were those returned from current Middle East strife, those who fought in Vietnam, and one very Special 100yo who drove ambulances in Borneo, New Guinea, etc. One 97yo who was in those Arenas to, with his brothers. One of his brothers was killed

2 weeks, or a fortnight, before the end of the war.

See the scale of Time in those Marching today?

And we all say of those who did not return:

‘Time will not weary them’
 
John_Martin said:
Just as the Soul is the Act of the Body, God is the Act of Creation (you experience it as it currently appears because it is known that way to God, and moved to this actuality by God knowing it - and since he knows it in its form informing its material, materially you experience it moving toward equality with its form.)

By “act of creation”, in current English usage, we might say, “the actuality of material being”.

If you mean by “act of creation”, the moment when something begins existence where there is nothing, that might more readily be termed the “moment of creation”.

“Act” means more properly “form perfected in the individual.”
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Could God not create?
 
lmelahn said:
I agree, all except for the word “then,” which implies a temporal succession.

We are not to imagine that God “endures” through endless time. He simply is, in perfect beatitude, without change. Still less are we to imagine that one day it “occurred to him”*to create.

Rather, the act by which God creates the universe, although it is absolutely free, nevertheless itself exists for all eternity (because it is absolutely identical with Himself).

Creation, by the way, could be defined as causing things to exist, in the absolute sense: that is, without drawing in any way from some pre-existing thing.

Again, there is nothing preventing God from doing this in such a way that time extends infinitely into the past and future (although we know by revelation that, at a minimum, there will be a temporal end to the universe at some point in the future).
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We are not talking about only God. We are talking about existence including God. Lets subtract God from the case that God does not create and we have only God. We have “no thing” in this case after exclusion. The situation is ill defined if “no thing” and universe exist at the same point. What have you at the beginning? “not thing” and universe at the same time! Therefore we need “then” to go from state of “no thing” to universe.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
Time is a scale. And exists, as do numbers, in both directions.

Yesterday, today, tomorrow. We quantify these with how many,

Ie Today was ANZAC Day in Australia. Services and Marches in remembrance of Sacrifices of our Military.

The youngest 'marcher was a baby, a great grandson of a service person, or a baby of a serving person. Then there were those returned from current Middle East strife, those who fought in Vietnam, and one very Special 100yo who drove ambulances in Borneo, New Guinea, etc. One 97yo who was in those Arenas to, with his brothers. One of his brothers was killed

2 weeks, or a fortnight, before the end of the war.

See the scale of Time in those Marching today?

And we all say of those who did not return:

‘Time will not weary them’
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Have you ever ask yourself why passage of things is steady? Without time all motions collapse at an instant.
 
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