Dilemma-- should I become Catholic in spite of postmodernism and liberalism in the church?

[NeelyAnn]

Obviously it hasn’t been discussed enough if you think it’s acceptable to advocate SSPX masses as a legitimate alternative for the OP, when they are not.

OP, I recommend checking out Fr. Z’s blog - www.wdtprs.com

He’s a big proponent of both the TLM and obedience to the Pope.

Yes, and Fr. Z does not accuse the SSPX of being heretical, or schismatic - just as the Pope does not consider them to be either of those things.

Although in times past, Fr. Z took a fairly hardline stance against the SSPX, he no longer seems to do so. Most recently, he has been very supportive of them (I’m not talking weeks, but over the past year at a minimum).

He has shown a lot of support for the discussions between the SSPX and Rome, and he has expressed his hopefulness that the SSPX can make some headway with Rome with regards to VII.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you to all of you for your posts.

What I want to find is a church that has an active body of people who live their lives according to the commandments of Christ, and are not ashamed to say so. You know, even small groups can accomplish alot with God’s help

I am fortunate enough to live near a church with the Tridentine Mass, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything…or does it?

I have a choice of going to RCIA in a parish within a mile of where I live, or driving 8 miles to the Latin rite.

What do you suggest?

I know that Christ has been leading me in the direction of the Catholic church for some time, and will make it clear what I should do. And advice from others helps, too.

I am glad to see young people being traditional. Before I started doing this research I was afraid that all the traditional Catholics were of retirement age, as I am.

My advise will be simple and to the point.
Get yourself a copy of the Catholic Church Catachism. Also fix yourself a link to an online version of the Catechism. There is a good one HERE. There is a good serch link for the catachism at the bottom of the page.

Then you can go to RCIA at either parish. But do as St Paul advises and check the teaching against Scripture, or in this case against the catachism. If you find problems, ask, and if there is sitll a questino, go with the catachism.

As far as which church will be more devout, it is hard to say, though the folks who prefer the EF, do tend to be a bit more serious about their faith since they are “bucking the trend”, so to speak.

Hope this helps a little.

Peace
James

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I am fortunate enough to live near a church with the Tridentine Mass, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything…or does it?

It’s generally a good sign but does not necessarily guarantee anything if they’re Diocesan. There’s been reports of liberal Priests being pressured into saying the traditional Mass by the Bishop to satisfy a group of traditional minded Catholics. In cases like that there’s a potential for liberalism in a candy wrapper. If you have access to Priests who belong to to a traditional Priestly fraternity, like those mentioned on the prior page, who are dedicated to the traditional ways that is the way to go.

I have a choice of going to RCIA in a parish within a mile of where I live, or driving 8 miles to the Latin rite.

Actually “latin rite” means “western rite” - the opposite of an eastern rite - and covers most Catholics in America regardless of whether you attend the traditional Mass or the new Mass.

I understand what you meant though and yes, I would check out that parish that offers the traditional Mass first.

I am glad to see young people being traditional. Before I started doing this research I was afraid that all the traditional Catholics were of retirement age, as I am.

Depending on how large of area you’re in one of things you’ll notice in the larger traditional Mass areas is the number of younger adults present with their usually large families. I’m 34 w/ 3 children and I would say that’s the norm in my area but there are also a good number of well behaved seniors too

I know that Christ has been leading me in the direction of the Catholic church for some time, and will make it clear what I should do. And advice from others helps, too.

My advice would be to continue to pray, especially the rosary (if you have problems with prayer to the saints then I would read up on that subject), read good orthodox Catholic material (pre 1960’s works are generally more black and white) - Catholic Answers has good Catholic apologetics material but is also skewed with a noticeable distaste for tradition so keep that in mind too.

Fisheaters.com has good articles on traditional catholicism and becoming catholic.

I’ll pray for you today.

God Bless you,

 

[wanner47]

Yes, and Fr. Z does not accuse the SSPX of being heretical, or schismatic - just as the Pope does not consider them to be either of those things.

Although in times past, Fr. Z took a fairly hardline stance against the SSPX, he no longer seems to do so. Most recently, he has been very supportive of them (I’m not talking weeks, but over the past year at a minimum).

He has shown a lot of support for the discussions between the SSPX and Rome, and he has expressed his hopefulness that the SSPX can make some headway with Rome with regards to VII.

Not quite accurate. Here is what Fr. Z has to say about the SSPX. As you can see, his judgment is that their sacraments are illicit.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Interesting thought I wanted to share, from my own experiences:

Frasier Crane Show: “Six months ago, I was living in Boston. My wife had left me, which was very painful. Then she came back to me, which was excruciating.”

At times, my association with the Church has mirrored this statement. I have studied religion for over 13 years, in and out of school, especially my own Catholic Faith. I have drifted away, horrified by the manifest religious indifference, ignorance, and irrelevance of much post-Vatican II parochial life, only to encounter the indifference, ignorance, and irrelevance of the local SSPX mission! I have drifted…and come back again.

I would love to come on this forum and say I found the magic answer. I have even out of desperation studied other religions to see if maybe I was wrong, perhaps the Catholic Church was not it. I have especially studied Eastern Orthodoxy and Anglicanism, and other denominations minutely obscure, and while I see much good there, I have often been left but to lament, Rome is Home.

Truth is not always joyful, being suprised by truth can also mean horror of mediocrity and laxity, the listless nature of modern society reflected in the Church on earth.

This is not in my opinion necessarily bad. I see it as God’s impetus to lead me forward, never satisfied by spiritual mundanity but seeking greater rewards. My seeking of the Truth elsewhere has only ever lead me back, no matter how I try. Orthodoxy has problems, traditional Anglicanism has problems, etc. etc. The Holy Ghost inspires us in divers ways, sometimes painful. But Our Lord gives us splinters from His cross to offer to Him, as a sign of our weakness and the power of His Cross, leading to triumph.

Perhaps the haven of my soul has not been found, but to be certain, a pilgrim on this journey, keeping his lantern aloft, even if he stumble, shall find his true home. Hold aloft your lantern my friend, however bumpy the ride, your on the right road home.

 

[KingTheoden]

Sounds nice, but not quite true. The SSPX has ceased believing in the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Thus, your first line is already false.

this argument has been had here so many times the horse has been canonized. If you want to have it, use the search feature you can beat the dead horse on your own.

I know there are distinct opinions on SSPX. Let’s be careful to stay on topic, which is helping two traditionally minded people considering the Catholic Church find where they need to go.

Echoing the comment of another poster, you can have a very orthodox pastoral ministry and little TLM. It is probably better to find a parish where you have priests truly dedicated to Church teachings, give meaningful homilies, and will really help you with getting away from sinfulness than just finding regular TLM.

Of course I tend to think that TLM parishes tend to be pretty good with pastoral care.

 

[Monty61]

\but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc.\

**Are you looking for the Truth of Christ, or merely esacaping into what you think is a haven of cultural conservatism?

If you join ANY church for ANY reason other than love of Christ, you’ve got things terribly wrong.**

BpBasil:
The Lord uses many things to draw people to Him. If Alex is drawn by a desire for conservative (And the Catholic and Orthodox traditions DO promote cultural conservatism), and this is what is drawing him to an apostolic church, is that such a bad thing?

 

[Bobby_Joe_1]

Dear Alex,
There are two churches in the Portland area where you can attend the Latin Mass.

St. Birgitta Church, Mass weekly at 8:00 a.m.
St. Mary star of the Sea, in Astoria (sorry, I don’t know how close this might be to you), Mass weekly at 1:00 p.m.

You will know that you have come home.

 

[truevaticanii]

Thank you to all of you for your posts.

What I want to find is a church that has an active body of people who live their lives according to the commandments of Christ, and are not ashamed to say so. You know, even small groups can accomplish alot with God’s help

I am fortunate enough to live near a church with the Tridentine Mass, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything…or does it?

I have a choice of going to RCIA in a parish within a mile of where I live, or driving 8 miles to the Latin rite.

What do you suggest?

I know that Christ has been leading me in the direction of the Catholic church for some time, and will make it clear what I should do. And advice from others helps, too.

I am glad to see young people being traditional. Before I started doing this research I was afraid that all the traditional Catholics were of retirement age, as I am.

Find an FSSP parish… Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
OR even ICKSP… Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
There are other traditional groups around too, but I don’t know them as well… what I do know is that the FSSP is very Catholic, and they preach the faith like it is.

…don’t worry, many of the traditionalists are youth… you might even say most traditionalists are youth… it’s not that their stuck in the 50’s …it’s just that some old people are stuck in the 60’s (lol), and some just don’t understand the TLM, so the NO is more appealing to them b/c it’s somewhat easier to understand–less symbolism and beauty to grasp–if you asked me.

…just avoid the SSPX for now, the Pope is talking to them about Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass, while they DO accept the authority of the Pope, they do NOT accept the Novus Ordo Mass–it is invalid to them because they generally deny the validity of Vatican II… we’ll see where they are when their discussions with the Pope are finished.

Most people who celebrate the TLM that I know of preach the faith like it is… there are still “Novus Ordo priests” who preach the faith like it is, but sometimes it is harder to find the ones that actually have the answers to some important questions… they answer my questions with “Ya know, I’m not really sure myself on that one.”

My advice to you, do RCIA at a TLM parish, while reading the Catechism and the Bible… you might even stop in from time to time to check out the other parish’s RCIA class to see what they are teaching, and if there is anything questionable that you hear there, you may ask the TLM priest or someone about it… def. consult the Catechism though.

God Bless you on your journey home!

 

[truevaticanii]

Sounds nice, but not quite true. The SSPX has ceased believing in the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Thus, your first line is already false.

Just had to make this clear to you… the SSPX does accept the authority of the Pope… they have always viewed all the Popes as legitimate from Peter (the first Pope) to Pope Benedict XVI.

However, the SSPV has split off of the SSPX and they are sedevacantists who claim that every Pope since Blessed John XXIII is an antipope who was not validly ordained because the Popes believed in heresies and were thus heretics, apostates, schismatics, etc.

The SSPX whoever “professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ.” -http://sspx.org/

However, they have always denied that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, and they also deny the legitimacy of the Second Vatican Council.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Find an FSSP parish… Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
OR even ICKSP… Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
There are other traditional groups around too, but I don’t know them as well… what I do know is that the FSSP is very Catholic, and they preach the faith like it is.

…just avoid the SSPX for now, the Pope is talking to them about Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass, while they DO accept the authority of the Pope, they do NOT accept the Novus Ordo Mass–it is invalid to them because they generally deny the validity of Vatican II… we’ll see where they are when their discussions with the Pope are finished.

Most people who celebrate the TLM that I know of preach the faith like it is… there are still “Novus Ordo priests” who preach the faith like it is, but sometimes it is harder to find the ones that actually have the answers to some important questions… they answer my questions with “Ya know, I’m not really sure myself on that one.”

My advice to you, do RCIA at a TLM parish, while reading the Catechism and the Bible… you might even stop in from time to time to check out the other parish’s RCIA class to see what they are teaching, and if there is anything questionable that you hear there, you may ask the TLM priest or someone about it… def. consult the Catechism though.

God Bless you on your journey home!

I agree. I would not get involved with groups that have controversy unless you are ready to accept living with those controversies. You may end up feeling you have to defend things you are not prepared or are not interested in defending just yet, just to worship in peace.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Just had to make this clear to you… the SSPX does accept the authority of the Pope… they have always viewed all the Popes as legitimate from Peter (the first Pope) to Pope Benedict XVI.

However, the SSPV has split off of the SSPX and they are sedevacantists who claim that every Pope since Blessed John XXIII is an antipope who was not validly ordained because the Popes believed in heresies and were thus heretics, apostates, schismatics, etc.

The SSPX whoever “professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ.” -http://sspx.org/

However, they have always denied that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, and they also deny the legitimacy of the Second Vatican Council.

Not completely true. The SSPV leadership personally feels all the popes since John XXIII are invalid, however, this is not their OFFICIAL position, which is actually “We are not sure and we are not going to say.” However, they do not say Mass una cum and they heavily frown on people who go to Masses (such as SSPX or ICK) who do, in some cases, I understand, even denying communion. Schizophrenic approach, I know, but it is what it is.

That being said, I have known of people who acknowledge the Holy Father and still attend SSPV Masses on occasion (Not recommended!).

 

[truevaticanii]

Not completely true. The SSPV leadership personally feels all the popes since John XXIII are invalid, however, this is not their OFFICIAL position, which is actually “We are not sure and we are not going to say.” However, they do not say Mass una cum and they heavily frown on people who go to Masses (such as SSPX or ICK) who do, in some cases, I understand, even denying communion. Schizophrenic approach, I know, but it is what it is.

That being said, I have known of people who acknowledge the Holy Father and still attend SSPV Masses on occasion (Not recommended!).

I did read something along those lines on their website, however they won’t say the Mass approved by Pope John XXIII known as the 1962 Roman Missal of the TLM, which the SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, etc. all do say. They also split off of the SSPX, which sees the Popes as legit, while those groups who split from the SSPX are often sedevacantists. The SSPV does seem to be unsure of whether or not Pope John XXIII on to Pope Benedict XVI are legit, so “just in case” they do not follow them officially, and they will not say any Mass that comes from them. And they do say “They believe that the new Mass and sacraments compromise the true Catholic Religion and do not convey and profess the Catholic Faith as defined by Our Lord Jesus Christ and passed down to us from the Apostles.” -http://www.sspv.net/ But, you are correct, they do not officially deny the papacy of John XXIII on down.

But, we should avoid any groups that generally lead toward sedevacantism… to me sedevacantists are the new “Old Catholics” of the “Old Catholic Church”, which was founded in Germany to claim that The First Vatican Council was “invalid” and that Papal Infallibility is a “Vatican I lie”. Ironically enough, the Old Catholic Church is in Communion with the Anglican Church as they both see themselves as “Catholics” without the need of a Pope.

 

[JRKH]

Just had to make this clear to you… the SSPX does accept the authority of the Pope… they have always viewed all the Popes as legitimate from Peter (the first Pope) to Pope Benedict XVI.

However, the SSPV has split off of the SSPX and they are sedevacantists who claim that every Pope since Blessed John XXIII is an antipope who was not validly ordained because the Popes believed in heresies and were thus heretics, apostates, schismatics, etc.

The SSPX whoever “professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ.” -http://sspx.org/

However, they have always denied that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, and they also deny the legitimacy of the Second Vatican Council.

So the SSPX says the popes are valid but the council called by one of the Popes was NOT Valid and that the mass and other documents released over their signatures are NOT valid?
Just one more reason to stay in a parish that is in FULL communion with Rome.

I hold no deep negativity toward the SSPX where a person converting is concerned, we need to keep them clearly within the Body of the Church which includes Vat II.

Peace
James

 

[georgette94]

I’m in a dilemma and would appreciate advice and/or information.

I’m in RCIA and considering becoming Roman Catholic, partly because I got disgusted by hearing blatant radical feminism and New Age fluff preached by the clergy at the Episcopal church I was attending (not to mention the national leader of the US Episcopal church). But I’ve become increasingly dismayed because the RCIA teachers, including the priest, are showing similar tendencies: they use the same annoying so-called “gender-inclusive language” to refer to God; last week one of the teachers referred to the “Sophia” passages in the bible as supposed evidence for a female God (as far as I know those passages are actually a poetic device personifying wisdom but not remotely referring to an actual god or part of the Godhead, and I spoke up in class and said so); also last week the same teacher said that you don’t have to agree with the church on everything, and specifically brought up abortion and said that you can be “pro-choice” and Catholic.

One of the big reasons I waited as long as I did to even consider officially becoming Catholic was that I used to be pro-abortion, and while I like a lot about the church I didn’t want to be a hypocrite. I’ve recently had a major change of heart regarding abortion, so it sort of annoys me to finally come to RCIA only to be told essentially that it doesn’t matter; that you can supposedly believe any kind of ultra-liberal fluff and still be Catholic.

I’m also disheartened by things like Catholic Campaign for Human Dignity supporting far-left causes (including until recently ACORN); the huge number of radical feminists in church leadership; and the fact that several national church organizations support Obamacare. (I’m glad the Stupak amendment passed, but it’s still an abomination that raises serious concerns about subsidiarity, euthanasia, and rationing.)

So, did I just happen to walk into the most liberal parish in the US? Is this an anomaly? Are there any conservative parishes in Portland Oregon? Is it just that the US church has a lot of heresy, but the Vatican is still true to tradition? Is Roman Catholicism still the faith of JRR Tolkien and GK Chesterton? Can I be politically conservative and still become Catholic? Is there any hope?

I’m really not trying to mean or snarky; I’m in a dilemma and have been for a while. I am very interested in being part of the Catholic faith…but I’m leaving the US Episcopal church in search of an ark of safety from postmodernism, feminism, crypto-Marxism, state-worship, etc… The Continuing Anglicans (the ones that follow the Affirmation of Saint Louis of 1977) seem to be much freer of these trends, but that’s because they recently split from the US church and from Canterbury, and not all Continuing Anglican churches are even in communion with each other. So, again, a dilemma.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

The Catholic Church is made up of sinners, as well as saints, as you are finding out. But you will never get to explore its riches from the outside. Once you are in, the sacraments and the Eucharist are there to build you up with grace.

 

[EnchantedEve]

So the SSPX says the popes are valid but the council called by one of the Popes was NOT Valid and that the mass and other documents released over their signatures are NOT valid?
Just one more reason to stay in a parish that is in FULL communion with Rome.

I hold no deep negativity toward the SSPX where a person converting is concerned, we need to keep them clearly within the Body of the Church which includes Vat II.

Peace
James

Actually, the SSPX does not reject Vatican II, per se, just the “non-traditional” parts. Hardline members do reject the council, but it is rumoured that the head of the Society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, is less rigorous on this point, allegedly saying he accepts “95%” of Vatican II. We may end up seeing a SSPX prelature which understands the Council in a “different light” than other liberal theologians, but still accept it nonetheless.

That being said, if by the off chance the Holy Father does decide to reject Vatican II as valid, it would certainly not be the first time this has happened in Church history, nor would it be terribly unusual. The concept just seems strange to us since we now see councils less often than in the past.