Dinosaurs and Genesis

[buffalo]

I’m reluctant to get into a pissing match.

The text editor didn’t delete that so…

I’m not here to prove you wrong. Just that my POV is fine by the Church, by various Popes etc etc.

You seem to want me to say I’m wrong. I’m not.

You can maintain your POV too. That’s fine. The Catholic Church has a wide spectrum of beliefs.

Simple question - yes or no - did Eve come from Adam?

 

[triumphguy]

Genesis says that Eve came from the rib of the Adam.

 

[mommamaree]

I feel more and more like a middle child when I participate at CAF. I try to add to the discussion and help find common ground but the combatants ignore such efforts and only become more entrenched in their positions, with their fingers in their ears. Fine, I can see reasonable discussion is unwanted so I will take myself off in a huff and go talk to people who care.
(just in case someone is actually reading my post this time, that was intended to be tongue-in-cheek)

 

[triumphguy]

So what do you think mom? Was Eve created from Adam’s rib?

 

[grannymh]

Hi All!! I just wanted to ask a question about something that has been kind of bothering me for a while. My brother, is against the catholic church and its teaching, and he continues to try and say how Christians do not believe in dinosaurs. Is there anything in the catholic church that says that? That got me thinking. Since dinosaurs existed, because of the remains that have been found. How does that tie in with Adam and Eve? I believe that the Adam and Eve should not be understood literally. The main question I’m trying to ask is that if carbon dating put human only being around for thousands of years, and it put dinosaurs being alive millions of years ago, then I’m wondering why god created us so far apart. My thought begins to be the world was not created for us at first. Please give your feedback and what you think. Thank you and God Bless!!

Dinosaurs are not human beings. Nor does the existence of Dinosaurs intersect with Catholic doctrines regarding human beings. Dinosaurs belong in the material/physical world of natural science; therefore, there can be various scientific theories about them.
Scientific theories are not doctrines of the Catholic Church; therefore, Catholics can choose which scientific theory(s) they prefer.

Adam and Eve are real human beings who founded humanity. Being real human beings, God called them and their human descendants to share in His life through knowledge and love. This is basic Catholic doctrine. Catholicism does not have a scientific doctrine which details what animals, including dinosaurs, lived when. Therefore, one believes in a real Adam and Eve and at the same time does not have to believe in any theory regarding Dinosaurs. Nonetheless, it can be fun to speculate about the Dinosaurs. (I love them like a five-year-old.)

As for carbon dating, I am in the middle of reading about various forms of “dating”. All I can say for sure is that there are different opinions about the limitations of carbon dating and other methods. But that is the way science works. It does the best it can with the tools it has.

 

[mommamaree]

So what do you think mom? Was Eve created from Adam’s rib?

That is not what this thread was about. The OP’s question was about dinosaurs and the bible. One of the forum rules is no thread hijacking. :tsktsk:
This being Catholic Answers, we are supposed to be answering the OP’s question with Catholic teaching or other supportive evidence, not derailing the thread with philosophical speculation about various tangential matters.
With all due respect, regarding the question you put to me here, go start your own thread.
But I would be interested to hear response or rebuttal to my previous post about terminology.

 

[triumphguy]

That is not what this thread was about. The OP’s question was about dinosaurs and the bible. One of the forum rules is no thread hijacking. :tsktsk:
This being Catholic Answers, we are supposed to be answering the OP’s question with Catholic teaching or other supportive evidence, not derailing the thread with philosophical speculation about various tangential matters.
With all due respect, regarding the question you put to me here, go start your own thread.
But I would be interested to hear response or rebuttal to my previous post about terminology.

I was just trying to include you since you seemed to be asking for attention

RE: your previous post I thought that was a thread hijack so I ignored it!

 

[johnnyjones]

I have been put on “ignore” by Triumphguy for trying to attain a true or false response to the thread topic. I simply requested the same courtesy I gave him by responding the way he wanted. Let the record reflect the truth of the matter.

 

[mommamaree]

I was just trying to include you since you seemed to be asking for attention

RE: your previous post I thought that was a thread hijack so I ignored it!

Touché, triumph guy.
Yeah it was an attention grab. I will admit it. My husband has been gone on a two-week business trip and I am up to my knees in toys, house repairs, and baby diapers, with no adult to talk to on a daily basis. But thank God DH comes home tomorrow and he actually likes listening to me talk.

Anyway, my previous points were an attempt to demonstrate how careful we should be when employing scientific theory terminology in religious conversation. Evolution has so many different assumed meanings, you must make sure your listener understands your meanings and assumptions. Gradual evolution according to natural selection is a theory that is incompatible with faith in God. There are other evolutionary scenarios which could account for dinosaurs as well as the other 95% of species that are already extinct and be compatible with divine revelation. Such as intelligent design theories. Or the theory of punctuated equilibria, which caused sudden appearances of new species in relatively short periods of time.

 

[triumphguy]

I agree - it’s a hypothesis. It is probably not the answer, or it may be 60% of the answer, but the Church nevertheless says we Catholics can discourse about the origins of the Universe with Science, as long as we don’t look to science for the ultimate answer, since that answer is provided by God and has been revealed to us in scripture, and tradition…

This is what Catholic Answers says:catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth” (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

 

[johnnyjones]

Our origins have been revealed in sacred scripture, but many are looking to science. Man may have walked with the great beasts known as dinosaurs.

 

[mommamaree]

I agree - it’s a hypothesis. It is probably not the answer, or it may be 60% of the answer, but the Church nevertheless says we Catholics can discourse about the origins of the Universe with Science, as long as we don’t look to science for the ultimate answer, since that answer is provided by God and has been revealed to us in scripture, and tradition…

This is what Catholic Answers says:catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

Good resource. Thanks for the link. My point is consistent with it, especially the section you highlighted. The type of idea that many Christians assume is meant by the single word “evolution” is precisely that random process of incredibly slow gradual change over time that denies any action of a creator. Besides, newer science doesn’t even support that notion as well as other newer models. Just saying…
I am just an amateur at this stuff anyway, but have found it fascinating since the 7th grade when my science textbook informed me that there is no God, we are mere accidents, and nothing but the material world exists anyway. Our kids will prolly have a lot more satisfactory answers in their lifetime. And I know what I most want to ask God when I get to heaven someday: “is there a rewind button on this whole universe creation thing, because It is too cool to miss a moment of it, let alone miss the first 4.5 trillion moments?!”

 

[johnnyjones]

Good resource. Thanks for the link. My point is consistent with it, especially the section you highlighted. The type of idea that many Christians assume is meant by the single word “evolution” is precisely that random process of incredibly slow gradual change over time that denies any action of a creator. Besides, newer science doesn’t even support that notion as well as other newer models. Just saying…
I am just an amateur at this stuff anyway, but have found it fascinating since the 7th grade when my science textbook informed me that there is no God, we are mere accidents, and nothing but the material world exists anyway. Our kids will prolly have a lot more satisfactory answers in their lifetime. And I know what I most want to ask God when I get to heaven someday: “is there a rewind button on this whole universe creation thing, because It is too cool to miss a moment of it, let alone miss the first 4.5 trillion moments?!”

Did Adam & Eve know their ancestors were apes at one time? Or some other non fully human creature?

 

[grannymh]

So that I do not stray from Dinosaurs, here is the sticky regarding what is permissible and what is not in this forum…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7450766&postcount=14

 

[mommamaree]

Did Adam & Eve know their ancestors were apes at one time? Or some other non fully human creature?

What is your purpose for asking this question? You make it seem like Adam and Eve would have been offended. What does it “matter” to us what “matter” God used to mold our first parents. That is like the vase reproaching the potter because the clay used to make the vase was once used to make a bowl. Who cares? Where do you think the dust of the earth comes from? Most recently it was rocks and dead living things. Before that, it was all stardust. Sounds pretty amazing to me. And besides, the last time a creature reproached God for His plans, a third of heaven fell. So, I think we humans (from humus, meaning dirt, and related to humble) are better suited asking questions out of awe and wonder, rather than of arrogance, as if we are too good to be related in any way to mere apes.
Whoops it appears I broke my own rule about not helping to derail a thread. Sorry OP. But I can see why triumph guy decided to ignore these impertinent questions.

 

[buffalo]

Genesis says that Eve came from the rib of the Adam.

You believe it to be true?

 

[johnnyjones]

What is your purpose for asking this question? You make it seem like Adam and Eve would have been offended. What does it “matter” to us what “matter” God used to mold our first parents. That is like the vase reproaching the potter because the clay used to make the vase was once used to make a bowl. Who cares? Where do you think the dust of the earth comes from? Most recently it was rocks and dead living things. Before that, it was all stardust. Sounds pretty amazing to me. And besides, the last time a creature reproached God for His plans, a third of heaven fell. So, I think we humans (from humus, meaning dirt, and related to humble) are better suited asking questions out of awe and wonder, rather than of arrogance, as if we are too good to be related in any way to mere apes.
Whoops it appears I broke my own rule about not helping to derail a thread. Sorry OP. But I can see why triumph guy decided to ignore these impertinent questions.

Your different than me. I’m offended when I’m told my ancestors were apes. No mention by Jesus that we were apes at one time. He reveals in the NT all kinds of complexities including the nature of God but we must be kept in the dark as to our “true” ape like origin. Jesus was still preaching the Genesis model.

These weren’t the questions asked of Triumph. Scroll back for clarity.

 

[Contarini]

Your different than me. I’m offended when I’m told my ancestors were apes.

That’s rather foolish pride on your part.

Genesis says that we come from dust, and you are offended by the idea that we came from dust by way of apes?

What did you want God to make you from–angels? Isn’t that presumptuous?

No mention by Jesus that we were apes at one time. He reveals in the NT all kinds of complexities including the nature of God but we must be kept in the dark as to our “true” ape like origin.

That’s an unbelievably silly argument.

For one thing, Jesus actually doesn’t reveal a lot of “complexities,” except in the sense that who He was is the complexity!

For another, Jesus never mentions atoms or germs or that the world is round or that the earth goes round the sun, or the existence of other galaxies or dark matter or the existence of America or the existence of Australia (with kangaroos and everything) or a million other things.

You’re just not making sense here.

Edwin

 

[triumphguy]

You believe it to be true?

CCC 355 "God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them."218 Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is “in the image of God”; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created “male and female”; (IV) God established him in his friendship.

CCC 375The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251

I think the true question is: What is God telling me/us in and through this story.

What does it mean that man could not find a “helpmeet” in nature?

What does it mean when Genesis says Eve was made from Adam’s rib?

What does it mean that man and woman are made from the same substance, not two different substances?

What does it mean that woman is taken from Man’s side, not his foot, or his head, or his bodily waste?

I believe God created Man and Woman in His image and likeness.

I have no idea how he did it.

There are two creation stories with different imagery and different chronology. Both teach the truth.

 

[acarlson]

I agree - it’s a hypothesis. It is probably not the answer, or it may be 60% of the answer, but the Church nevertheless says we Catholics can discourse about the origins of the Universe with Science, as long as we don’t look to science for the ultimate answer, since that answer is provided by God and has been revealed to us in scripture, and tradition…

This is what Catholic Answers says:catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

Exactly . . . links have been posted to several official Church documents explaining the Catholic position on evolution (aka: atheist evolution is absolutely out, but you may believe in either theist evolution or no evolution as you wish).

I don’t understand where all the vicious debate is coming from.