Dinosaurs and the Flood

[vsedriver]

Maybe. Or perhaps a miniature stegosaurus co-existed with humans?

there is absolutely no evidence that a 'miniature stegosaurus ever co-existed with humans or a rideable triceratops.

Actually we know the basis for the myth of the unicorn.

what we need is better teaching in Art History.

 

[davidharper]

The idea that Moses had tablets with Genesis written on them may be the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard.
For me to list the reasons why would require a post much longer than this forum is suitable for.

 

[billsherman]

The idea that Moses had tablets with Genesis written on them may be the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard.

Yeah. I’ve never met a Jewish person who believes anything approaching that. Every Jewish person - scholar or not - I’ve ever met fully recognizes that the Torah was compiled by many authors over a long period of time (well after the death of Moses). I’m sure there are some fundamentalist Jews out there, but I haven’t ever heard of them.

 

[Pattylt]

davidharper:

The idea that Moses had tablets with Genesis written on them may be the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard.

Yeah. I’ve never met a Jewish person who believes anything approaching that. Every Jewish person - scholar or not - I’ve ever met fully recognizes that the Torah was compiled by many authors over a long period of time (well after the death of Moses). I’m sure there are some fundamentalist Jews out there, but I haven’t ever heard of them.

I grew up in Orthodox Judaism and I don’t know any literalists with regard to Genesis, either. Many do believe Moses wrote parts of the Torah but not Genesis…even those that deny the various JEPD theories (there are more than one).

 

[DanielJosephBoucher]

Honestly, one Catholic priest is not the whole Church, so it is a dubious theory to think the whole universe started with a Big Bang. There is no Papal approval of the idea of the Big Bang Theory, plus, Catholic doctrine is to the contrary of that theory and in harmony with what is in the Holy Bible. I was raised Catholic and affiliated with the Catholic Church for the first 35 years of my life, and you people who tout the Big Bang Theory as the Catholic stance on Creation do not echo or reflect anything that anyone from the Catholic Church has ever taught me or anything I ever encountered from any Christian, Catholic or non-Catholic. Christians generally believe in the seven days of Creation (what is in the Holy Bible).

 

[puer.dei]

you people who tout the Big Bang Theory as the Catholic stance on Creation

It was pointed out that a Catholic priest, who was also a scientist, first developed the Big Bang Theory. How do you translate that into “touting” it as “the Catholic stance on Creation?”

And by the way, “you people” can be seen as dismissive and insulting.

 

[buffalo]

To the extent that there has been a “constant teaching,” it has not been that Genesis is literal history. That much is clear, as has been discussed already on this thread. As to Moses having some tablets that recorded Genesis - I don’t recall the Church ever teaching that.

The constant teaching and understanding is it is narrative account and literal, not literalistic.

What were they teaching before JEPD became in vogue?

 

[buffalo]

I’ve ever met fully recognizes that the Torah was compiled by many authors over a long period of time (well after the death of Moses).

We are only speaking about Genesis.

 

[TMC]

The constant teaching and understanding is it is narrative account and literal, not literalistic.

What were they teaching before JEPD became in vogue?

You are simply wrong about this. There have been Catholic scholars who had a literal view, but none recently. But even in ancient times literal history was not the predominant view.

 

[buffalo]

You are simply wrong about this. There have been Catholic scholars who had a literal view, but none recently. But even in ancient times literal history was not the predominant view.

When did JEPD arrive?

 

[TMC]

When did JEPD arrive?

The documentary hypothesis (aka JEPD) is relatively new, maybe 18th Century. But that does not mean that a fundamentalist view predated the documentary hypothesis.

 

[buffalo]

But that does not mean that a fundamentalist view predated the documentary hypothesis.

What did the Church teach about Genesis before this time?

 

[billsherman]

We are only speaking about Genesis.

Can you find even a single Jewish source that claim Moses wrote “Genesis” in the way you claim?

There aren’t any scholarly sources, but I’ll take anything. I’ll assume there is nothing that isn’t farcically fringe.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Maybe. Or perhaps a miniature stegosaurus co-existed with humans?

there is absolutely no evidence that a 'miniature stegosaurus ever co-existed with humans or a rideable triceratops.

Actually we know the basis for the myth of the unicorn.

what we need is better teaching in Art History.

I NEVER ONCE suggested that there was evidence.

We might be 99% sure that miniature stegosaurus may not have existed, but we can never be 100% sure because according to the scientific method, it’s impossible to prove a negative.

As far as the basis for the myth of the unicorn we THINK we know the basis. We are not 100% sure. We might be 99% sure, but we can never be 100% sure unless we find an ancient document that details how the myth was created.

 

[billsherman]

even those that deny the various JEPD theories (there are more than one).

What does JEPD mean? Sorry, I’ve just not encountered this term before this thread.

 

[billsherman]

Thanks. Is this controversial?!?!? I learned it in a Catholic high school! While I’ve never heard that particular acronym for it - it’s an old and well documented theory.

I don’t work with the OT much at all, but I wasn’t aware there was any significant number of Catholics who rejected source criticism based theories on the origins of the OT.

 

[Pattylt]

You may know it as the Documentary Hypothesis?
The letters come from the designation of who the writers of each section appear to represent.
J=YHWH
E=Elohim
P=Priestly class
D=Documentary group (final editor)

There are, I believe, a few different theories on how this composition came together and lively discussions by scholars on their favorite view!

It’s very useful in Genesis especially where there are two stories of the same event…one writer refers to God as YHWH while the other refers to Elohim. When the verses are teased apart, it’s easy to see the two differing points of view!

 

[billsherman]

You may know it as the Documentary Hypothesis?

Yes, that’s how I know it.

Like I mentioned, while I use various methods of textual criticism, I don’t generally study the OT. Hence my lack of familiarity with that particular term.

Textual criticism works the same way, regardless of the text being studied though. And to the point I was trying to make - like you - I’m completely unaware of any Jew who believes Moses wrote Genesis from clay tablets given to him by God.

That seems like a conflation of Mormonism and Judaism. A nice fantasy for a textual literalist, but sadly no evidence for its existence (like all literalist theories).

There is something very tragic when Christians ignore the scholarly contribution of Jews to understanding documents both traditions hold in common. Christian scholars are better at avoiding this trap than the laity, but its an error we are still guilty of from time to time.

 

[vsedriver]

We might be 99% sure, but we can never be 100% sure

99% is sufficient for me to accept that dinosaurs existed long before man and that man never interacted with them as living creatures. The rest is just fanciful speculation.

YMMV

 

[TMC]

What did the Church teach about Genesis before this time?

I think that has been discussed at length in this thread and others. I am not aware of any particular mandated interpretation from the Church, but the predominant line of thought seems to be that some of Genesis is actual history, but that much of it is not.