Diocese of Episcopal Church proposes making God Gender-Neutral

[Tis_Bearself]

I, personally, know several Catholic priests who now serve in the Anglican-Episcopalian Church, and they didn’t leave Catholicism to marry.

it’s my understanding that membership in the Anglican-Episcopalian churches is also way down, so I don’t see much point in drawing comparisons with a sinking ship.

If they left Catholicism and didn’t want to get married, then why did they leave? Over the Church’s teachings on gays? That seems to be what I usually read about when somebody is leaving Catholicism for Episcopal church in USA, and a lot of the time, the person leaving is themself LGBTQ.

Anyone who would leave a religion for another over gender-neutral language is having a serious priorities issue in my mind.

 

[Maximilian75]

Yes, Jesus loves us, but it also pains him to see the sin and immorality being promoted in his name by some Christians.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Anyone who would leave a religion for another over gender-neutral language is having a serious priorities issue in my mind.

I do agree with that! No, they didn’t leave Catholicism over that. They left for several reasons. Membership at the Episcopalian churches in my area is up slightly, but I concede, that may just be my area. I confess to being jealous of their choir. As a professionally trained singer, I wish ours were half as good.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Yes, Jesus loves us, but it also pains him to see the sin and immorality being promoted in his name by some Christians.

I hope you’re including Catholics in that! We are certainly not without sin!

 

[Maximilian75]

By no means do I say that.

However, AFAIK, the RCC does not endorse same sex ‘marriage’, transgenderism, the female priesthood, and the murder of children in the womb…

 

[ConstantLearner]

However, AFAIK, the RCC does not endorse same sex ‘marriage’, transgenderism, the female priesthood, and the murder of children in the womb…

No, they don’t, but all Catholics sin, or they are not human. A male friend of mine was having a hard time getting a job. He got a job managing a very upscale gay club. He was shocked at the number of Catholic people he knew in there regularly. What you singled out are not the ONLY sins, and, some Catholics get involved in those sins as well. We can ALL improve.

Edited: For propriety

 

[Maximilian75]

I never brought up the individual clergy. I am speaking of the institutional teachings of the Anglicans (Founded so Henry the 8th could get a divorce) and the Roman Catholic Church ( founded for the salvation of souls by Jesus Christ)

 

[GKMotley]

The Episcopal Church has been in a membership decline for 30-40 years. Opinions as to numbers vary. but they are shrinking, perhaps 20%+ in membership, 15%+ in average Sunday attendance, over that period. Other figures, measuring other factors, are even more dramatic, between 1980 and 2010. Various factors may be adduced.

 

[Jimbo]

This would seem the perfect place for Zelazney’s agnostics prayer:

“Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.”

 

[GKMotley]

Technically, decree of nullity.

 

[Maximilian75]

Technically

 

[ConstantLearner]

The Episcopal Church has been in a membership decline for 30-40 years. Opinions as to numbers vary. but they are shrinking, perhaps 20%+ in membership, 15%+ in average Sunday attendance, over that period. Other figures, measuring other factors, are even more dramatic, between 1980 and 2010. Various factors may be adduced.

Thank you for the figures. Yes, I know overall membership is in decline. It’s just not losing members as fast as the Catholic Church.

And perhaps more troubling for the church, for every one Catholic convert, more than six Catholics leave the church. Taken a step further, Catholicism loses more members than it gains at a higher rate than any other denomination, with nearly 13 percent of all Americans describing themselves as “former Catholics.”

https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/...-losing-members-faster-than-any-denomination/

 

[GKMotley]

The comment was meant to emphasize that Henry desired, applied for, and eventually received (after he got his own Church) a decree of nullity. It’s what one submitted a causa for. Which Henry did, citing the position that the dispensation under which he married Katherine was ultra vires, beyond the Papal power, as it was contrary to a divine law, the Leventine prohibition.The use of the term divorce is a loose one, but certainly common among historians. The best single bio of Henry, when touching that matter, uses divorce. But spends 4-5 chapters explaining the decree of nullity ins and outs. Using divorce in today’s context gives, generally, an incorrect idea to the modern mind. Decree of nullity is better. Personal opinion.

 

[Luke6_37]

The point is not “male”, biologically. It is “masculine”. C. S. Lewis touches on it, toward the end of THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.

C.S. Lewis is a product of his time & culture. I enjoy reading his books, but don’t agree with everything he writes. For example, I do not agree with his theory of the atonement. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a great Christian writer.

References to the divine feminine can be found in scripture. In both creation narratives it plainly states that both Adam and Eve (male & female) are created in God’s image. In the one account God creates Adam and then removes the feminine from him to create Eve. So now, in order for humans to create new life, they must be rejoined as one flesh. Jesus reminds us of this when he speaks of what matrimony means.

When Jesus speaks of God’s loving mercy, he refers to the maternal aspect of their nature - God is like a hen gathering her brood under her wing (Luke 13:34).

In his book “Vibrant Paradoxes” Bishop Barron explores the nature of Catholic thought as fundamentally opposed to an either/or framework. Jesus is not either human or divine, he is both human and divine. Salvation does not come through either faith or works, it comes from both faith and works. Our ability to know God does not come from either reason or revelation, it comes from both reason and revelation. The list goes on and on…

God is not either male or female, they are both male and female.

 

[GKMotley]

Oh, I wouldn’t expect you agree with Lewis on this. I was speaking to the orthodox amongst us. Those for whom scripture is not chronologically crippled or culturally constrained. No chronological snobs, as it were.

You interpret as you wish, and explicate it as you wish. I don’t mind.

 

[Raxus]

Wow. It takes a certain, special kind of arrogance to propose that God should be neutered.

Pretty sure that the devil is choking on his own laughter right now.

 

[jas84173]

It doesn’t really bother me to be honest. The reasoning behind it is lame but at the same time it’s not like God has a gender.

 

[Raxus]

not like God has a gender.

Except that he’s called “Father” by Jesus. And Jesus himself said “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

Is there a good reason to decide that the relationship that God Himself set up with us… that of a Father and His children… suddenly isn’t good enough? Sounds like the arrogance of Adam and Eve in the garden, to me.

 

[jas84173]

True. I don’t think the Book of Common Prayer is being updated anytime soon anyways. It was last updated in 1979 which isn’t long at all for a “liturgical book”.

 

[ErraticFaith]

Beyond ‘Father’, Jesus specifically cited ‘Abba’, a much more intimate and specific expression of gender in that part of the world. There is no doubt that the Father is the SOURCE of creation, the light GIVER not the receiver. He is masculine on every level and to imply otherwise is pseudo-apologetic babble that reaches much further than what it appears.

Why after all do you think there is a sudden interest in removing his Male identity?

Should we perhaps begin to entertain the idea that Adam was a transsexual?

My mind boggles at peoples apathy.

I hear it so often in the West ‘Aly, why is Christianity crumbling and Islam booming?’.

Well children. Isn’t it obvious?

Despite dubious Islamic belief and heritage they stick firmly to a rigid old doctrine as much as possible, with almost no exception.

Christianity on the other hand compromises its every foundation. Is this one more of those? Almost certainly.

Rest assured it will not improve people’s faith in the church. Nay. It won’t actually give them faith in anything and numbers will diminish all the more.