Disagreement with the Catechism

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mathematoons

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The Moral Theology subforum is, at any given time, full of threads with people arguing whether X is really a sin (whatever “X” may be), when the Catechism explicitly states that X is a grave sin.

What’s with that? My priest told me in no uncertain terms that the Catechism contains the teachings that MUST be believed, and that anyone who disagrees with the Catechism is wrong.

That being the case, anyone who disagrees with anything in the Catechism is either overtly disagreeing with God or is disagreeing that the Church is the voice of God, even though it claims to be such–and is hence accusing the Church of a massive blasphemy.

So why doesn’t this fact settle the matter?
 
I think you are correct in using the CCC. I am a new convert & what I have read in the CCC is beautifully written. Thanks for reminding me I need to study it more.

Perhaps some of these threads refer to the state of mind, full consent, etc. of the sinner.
 
Hi,

I think it’s because not all of the people on this forum have read the Catechism, probably because they are new in the Faith, or for some other reason. Also, most scrupulous people often battle with “is this a sin?” thoughts, and this forum seems for them a quick way of resolving their doubts.

Of course, there will be some who will openly disagree with the Catechism, for those people we should pray.
 
Hi,

I think it’s because not all of the people on this forum have read the Catechism, probably because they are new in the Faith, or for some other reason. Also, most scrupulous people often battle with “is this a sin?” thoughts, and this forum seems for them a quick way of resolving their doubts.

Of course, there will be some who will openly disagree with the Catechism, for those people we should pray.
I agree. Though I will say that sometimes posters on forums don’t disagree so much with the Catechism, as with the other posters’ interpretation of what it says.
 
God’s command not to eat the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden was perfect. Final. Inarguable. Yet…
 
The Moral Theology subforum is, at any given time, full of threads with people arguing whether X is really a sin (whatever “X” may be), when the Catechism explicitly states that X is a grave sin.

What’s with that? My priest told me in no uncertain terms that the Catechism contains the teachings that MUST be believed, and that anyone who disagrees with the Catechism is wrong.

That being the case, anyone who disagrees with anything in the Catechism is either overtly disagreeing with God or is disagreeing that the Church is the voice of God, even though it claims to be such–and is hence accusing the Church of a massive blasphemy.

So why doesn’t this fact settle the matter?
This illustrates the point that catechesis is sorely lacking on the part of many, many people.

I can’t think of the number of times I’ve had discussions with people (both in the real world and on line) who are utterly convinced of something that is completely wrong. I can show them the documentation directly from the Catechism or from a Magisterial source and it’s irrelevant: “Well, I went to Catholic school from elementary through university and they said _______” (something directly opposed to the teachings of the Church).

You just need to be patient with these folks, show them the authoritative source of your assertion (so that way they’re arguing with the Church and not with you) and trust that the Holy Spirit will eventually work in their hearts to enlighten the eyes of their heart.

[BIBLEDRB]Eph 1:17-19[/BIBLEDRB]

I suggest that you remember that it is God who opens up peoples’ hearts, not their own wisdom.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 2:12-14[/BIBLEDRB]
 
The Moral Theology subforum is, at any given time, full of threads with people arguing whether X is really a sin (whatever “X” may be), when the Catechism explicitly states that X is a grave sin.

What’s with that? My priest told me in no uncertain terms that the Catechism contains the teachings that MUST be believed, and that anyone who disagrees with the Catechism is wrong.

That being the case, anyone who disagrees with anything in the Catechism is either overtly disagreeing with God or is disagreeing that the Church is the voice of God, even though it claims to be such–and is hence accusing the Church of a massive blasphemy.

So why doesn’t this fact settle the matter?
You are right. The teachings in the CCC must be believed.

The CCC contains a summary of infallible and non-infallible teachings.

To reject any of the infallible teachings is heresy and a mortal sin.
To reject any of the non-infallible teachings is not heresy but is a mortal sin.
 
TheWhat’s with that? My priest told me in no uncertain terms that the Catechism contains the teachings that MUST be believed, and that anyone who disagrees with the Catechism is wrong.

That being the case, anyone who disagrees with anything in the Catechism is either overtly disagreeing with God or is disagreeing that the Church is the voice of God, even though it claims to be such–and is hence accusing the Church of a massive blasphemy.

So why doesn’t this fact settle the matter?
as you say, duh.

my personal opinion is that the need to prove the Catechism wrong about a specific moral teaching says nothing at all about the teaching, but quite a lot about the protestor, but then I am a cynical old lady.
 
I thought the only infallible teaching is when the Pope speaks ex cathedra?

How is this attitude toward the catechism any different than the pharisee’s attitude toward the Law of Moses?
 
I thought the only infallible teaching is when the Pope speaks ex cathedra?

How is this attitude toward the catechism any different than the pharisee’s attitude toward the Law of Moses?
because the Pharisees were preferring the imperfect form of the law, given because of the hardness of their hearts, over the Giver and Author of the Law. The Catechism is not a set of laws it is a statement of truth revealed by God, in a systematic way, synthesizing what has been revealed in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. This statement of truth, like the sacraments, worship, and moral law it describes, all serve to bring the believer closer to Jesus Christ, not to rebut and and ignore him as the pharisees were doing.
 
Yet it looks a lot like substituting one set of rules and regulations for another.
 
The reason is people want something to not be a sin and therefore ask again and again until somebody says it is not, they then hang on that one post and continue sinning.

They know that it is a sin but they try to cheat their way around it.

This is why you should be careful when replying to posts that you don’t tell somebody a sin is not a sin, better the other way around or say nothing.
 
The Moral Theology subforum is, at any given time, full of threads with people arguing whether X is really a sin (whatever “X” may be), when the Catechism explicitly states that X is a grave sin.

What’s with that? My priest told me in no uncertain terms that the Catechism contains the teachings that MUST be believed, and that anyone who disagrees with the Catechism is wrong.

That being the case, anyone who disagrees with anything in the Catechism is either overtly disagreeing with God or is disagreeing that the Church is the voice of God, even though it claims to be such–and is hence accusing the Church of a massive blasphemy.

So why doesn’t this fact settle the matter?
Well, yes, but…
The problem is that in the analysis of particular actions and the determination of its sinfulness is not always so simple; sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. For example, it is clear that murder is a grave sin. But, not all homicides are murder. Self-defense, killing in just war, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc., are all homicides that may not be sinful or may be sinful but not grave sins, or may be grave sins but are not murder.

(Note, the above is not situational ethics. Murder is ALWAYS sinful whatever the situation. The question is whether you are, in fact, dealing with murder at all.)

Likewise as you read through the CCC you can find things, especially issues of morals but also theological issues, that might need to be fleshed out. Make no mistake, the CCC is authoritative, but it is a catechism - a teaching tool - and it is not designed to provide a fully applicable exegesis on either the theology or moral issue set forth in it; it is a precis. Therefore additional research could be needed on any issue it in to fully understand the matter.
 
Another way to analyze the matter is to consider the way one must deal with Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors. It is an authoritative papal pronouncement, but it is a “Syllabus” or a listing of teachings, and for the actual teaching you need to review the documents and teachings that underlie what is stated in the Syllabus. Simply reading the Syllabus on its face will often be confusing or misleading. Keep in mind the Church is usually very specific in what it says; it often uses technical language and that sometimes leads to misinterpretation when documents are read in a colloquial or common understanding of the words and ideas expressed. So, too, reading the Catechism, though HMC has gone to some lengths to make the Catechism “de-jargonfied” because it is a teaching tool.
 
Make no mistake, the CCC is authoritative, but it is a catechism - a teaching tool - and it is not designed to provide a fully applicable exegesis on either the theology or moral issue set forth in it; it is a precis. .
++
This should be in a pop-up window every time “Catechism” is mentioned on the forums.
 
Well, yes, but…
The problem is that in the analysis of particular actions and the determination of its sinfulness is not always so simple; sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. For example, it is clear that murder is a grave sin. But, not all homicides are murder. Self-defense, killing in just war, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc., are all homicides that may not be sinful or may be sinful but not grave sins, or may be grave sins but are not murder.

(Note, the above is not situational ethics. Murder is ALWAYS sinful whatever the situation. The question is whether you are, in fact, dealing with murder at all.)

Likewise as you read through the CCC you can find things, especially issues of morals but also theological issues, that might need to be fleshed out. Make no mistake, the CCC is authoritative, but it is a catechism - a teaching tool - and it is not designed to provide a fully applicable exegesis on either the theology or moral issue set forth in it; it is a precis. Therefore additional research could be needed on any issue it in to fully understand the matter.
Well, yes, it is a “teaching tool”, but it is more than that. It is a comprehensive summary of the philosophical and theological underpinnings of what Catholicism is.
If anyone bothers to read it thoroughly, natural curiosity would get ou wanting to read more and more about what lays underneath what the catechism displays. Most of us, however, have neither the time, nor the inclination to start to delve into the philosophy and the theology upon which the catechism stands.

mathematoons says the priest states the catechism is to be believed and then asks a valid question in querying “why doesn’t this settle the matter”. probably because not enough people have read the Catechism thoroughly. Or, as MarkOmalley points out, a lack of catechesis, which is an identified problem in Catholicism in this day and age. Even for those well versed in the Catechism itself, there is a constant barrage of real world publicity and dialogue which attempts to disprove what the Catechism contains. If one reads the catechism carefully, it will be noticed that it refers constantly to “objective” truths. In the real world and here on CAF, great arguments erupt over whether or not objective truths even exist! I know and I’m sure you know that the objective truths refered to in the Catechism have a Natural Law base. Now start a discussion with you local parishioners about Natural Law and you’ll get a lot of blank stares.

The first step, in my opinion, is to point out to people the cogency and coherency of the Catechism in its outlining of an ethical and moral system that stands the individual in good stead for living a moral life, as it has stood the whole of western society in good stead right up until the moral relativism started to creep into social discourse.

Take, as an example, contraception. It is a point that is well discussed in the Catechism and yet it is a point that many Catholics take on themselves to disagree with. They disagree not realising that the aticle on contraception is but one little brick in the wall of an objective moral and ethical system. When they reject what the Catechism says on contraception, they inadvertently reject much of the rest of that moral and ethical system is built on and they do not know of the philosophical and moral reasoning which undepins the stance on contraception, of which the catechism is but the tip of the iceburg. Yet, the world tells them it’s OK and unless they are pursuaded to delve a little deeper into why the Catechism says what it says, they are a lost cause on the subject and a great inconsistency creeps into the moral and ethical aspect of their lives.

It isn’t good enough, in this day and age, for a Priest to simply say “it must be believed”. He should expalin why it is true and correct and that it should be followed because its cogency and coherency makes it true and correct and worthy of belief.
 
There are two kinds of people in my experience who continue to argue after an authoritative catechism citation refutes their claim:
  1. People who are willing to submit to the Church, but wish their submission to be one that comprehends what is being submitted to so they continue to ask questions out of a desire to more fully “get it.”
  2. People who believe they are either smarter and/or closer to God than the Church and that they’ve seen the truth where those old fools that have gone before were blind.
Don’t be too quick to assume that the person you are talking to is in the #2 category. Some people in group #1 are genuinely on the fence and can be pushed into group 2 if your response convinces them that the only logic behind the teaching is “The pope says so, so shut up.”

Continuing the reasoned and rational defense of the doctrine can help those in #1 resolve their difficulty and move forward. Doubt it? Read up on Cardinal Newmann and the Immaculate Conception.

I try not to get too worked up over group #2 (though I sometimes fail). They usually get themselves banned before too long.
 
I would say that the sins listed in the catechism are objectively sins. It would be a good idea to adhere to them. However, I also believe that God looks into our hearts and is able to make fair, but subjective, judgement.

What I mean is that while all grave sins are objectively mortal, our culpability for them is affected by many more things than just whether we committed them or not.

For example, stealing is objectively a mortal sin; however, depending on motivation and circumstances, the person who steals may not necessarily be in a state of mortal sin.
 
Cbus
**
For example, stealing is objectively a mortal sin; however, depending on motivation and circumstances, the person who steals may not necessarily be in a state of mortal sin. **

Depends on how much you steal. ;)😃
 
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