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sharmin
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I teach in a Catholic school and my kids go to a Catholic school and I can assure you that this is true.
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maryjk
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Once the policy is in effect, how do you charge one parent and not another?
Let us take your example, but add that the normal repeat offender is also there. So, do I just suck it up, pay the fee at my son’s school because I am late picking up my child from Kindergarten, and wait until both parents decide to show up? Do I charge one parent but not the other? How many times is it okay to not charge one parent but to charge another?
For the OP, she didn’t have to pay, because she could show that no one told her it was a half day. But what if they had. How long do you think it is reasonable for the teacher, me in this case, babysitting a child because the parent can’t read the schedule? How many days should I have to leave my schedule open in case someone didn’t read their policy or check their child’s schedule?
Yes, the fee is punitive. It is suppose to be punishment. Because otherwise, teachers are sitting in the classroom because the parents can’t figure out how to get to the school on time.
And even more so with Sunday School. Many of these teachers are volunteers. They have already put in lots of hours. It is not fair nor right to expect them to put in even more because you “can’t.”
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EasterJoy
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What if they had? What if somebody should know to be there at noon and gets her day wrong and doesn’t get there until three? This is never ever supposed to happen and so the penalty should be something around a month’s tuition when it does? This kind of thinking is why people hate bureaucrats.
Are you asking this: How do you have a policy in place and yet expect yourself to make reasonable exceptions? How do you charge $5 a minute up to a certain amount, like $50 or even $100, and then charge a different amount thereafter so that a family can’t wipe out most of their entire month’s grocery bill with one mistake? You’re kidding, right?
I don’t disagree that some penalty is in order or that a financial penalty is reasonable, but it only needs to be at the level of a deterrent, not the draconian level that you’re suggesting is right. Yes, in extreme cases there even gets to be a point where habitual bad behavior merits a trip to the principal’s office and, eventually, dismissal of the child from the school. A school bureaucrat who doesn’t know automatically that nobody is ever charged $900 for one mistake is the one who needs a trip to the principal’s office, though.
I guess I have too many friends in emergency medicine who realize that they may occasionally be stuck in the department after their shift was supposed to be over who don’t expect to be paid $300 an hour in overtime when that happens. Maybe it is because doctors realize that sometimes they are held up and people have to wait for them. Teachers and schools, on the other hand, are never late letting their kids out, never late getting their grading done, never late in getting notices out so that the schedules of dozens of families are suddenly thrown off, never fail to have a plan in place for the inevitable truth that sometimes people forget, never make a mistake.
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Soldier_Of_God
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This is how we should strive to look at things. I can appreciate the disappointment, however. To dwell on what was done would serve no good purpose.
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EasterJoy
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I’ve taught on a volunteer basis. I’ve gotten kids ready for First Holy Communion, a class of around 40 total. I can’t imagine not wanting to make accomodations for a mother with a toddler and an infant, especially if the family is new to the parish. Besides that, the father is in the military. Are we really going to sit here and say that this family doesn’t sacrifice for others enough? They don’t deal with enough bureaucrats for the sake of the country, they have to have some more of that at church, too?
Could the OP be more on top of things? Sure. I don’t think she would argue that. The question is whether or not she has reason to feel that her daughter and family were not looked out for during sacramental prep. I think she’s right.
I’ve had a student who all of a sudden started acting out. Just being a pain in the hind end. I asked my DRE what to do about it. It turned out that the child’s mother had just up and left the family. The father was struggling to keep things together. Did that change how I saw her misbehavior? Yes, it did. Would I bend over backwards to help him, would I put in hours for him that I couldn’t afford to put in if all 40 families had a similar need? Yes, I would, because all 40 families never do have that kind of a need, but somebody nearly always does. Expecting otherwise isn’t realistic. So you let people come to you with their needs, and sometimes you make an exception and sometimes you don’t, but at least you hear where they are and consider what options are available to meet them part way.
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maryjk
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So what is the solution? What is that teacher supposed to do? Just sit there babysitting this child? What about the teacher’s children?
There are reasonable exceptions. The OP didn’t pay. If there had been an emergency, at our school at least, she wouldn’t have paid. But when the parent waltzes in saying, sorry the line was long at the store or the doctor’s office took longer than I thought, my response is, great, but now I have missed my appointment. Next time have a back up plan.
Again, for the OP, the school didn’t hold to the charge of $900. At our school, once the policy was put in place, one parent paid $40. And she walked in with money in hand.
There is a HUGE difference between someone working in emergency medicine and someone that can’t be bothered to be on time. (Not indicating that the OP couldn’t be bothered, she was unaware of the early closing.)
Everyone understands emergencies. What I don’t understand is how a parent can complain about not knowing enough about 1st Communion Mass and at the same time admit that she couldn’t figure out, for TWO MONTHS, how to get in and talk to the teachers about it. Really, for 2 months???
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maryjk
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When I taught 1st Communion prep, almost all of the parents had a baby and/or a toddler at home. And living near a military base, most will have a family member in the military and have moved within the past 2 years. That is how it is for parishes in/near/around military bases.
I grant you that. It is true no one gave her the information. Of course if it is like my current parish, much of the information is verbal. Simply spoken during the many meetings they have. Parents that can’t make it, have other parents take notes. But maybe the OP doesn’t know anyone in her daughter’s class or anyone that could have attended at least one of the many meetings offered. So, yes, it is true that no one provided the information to her.
I would certainly help where I could. But I would also expect to have the parent meet me half way. Attending one of the nine meetings would go a long way to having me believe that the parent cares and wants to met me half way. Simply telling me that she can’t show up for ANY of them, tells me that it isn’t really that important to her. (Of course, the OP has said that it was very important. And that is fine, but with what the teachers had to go on how were they to know she cared?)
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PaulinVA
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I have written many replies and erased them before I submitted. They would get me in trouble, I’m sure.
No one wants to be taken advantage of. No one wants to be a doormat. But, in some ways, the that is exactly what the Gospel commands.
One of the things our pastor has been talking about the past year is how undeserving we are of God’s love. It’s given freely, just because God loves us - in fact, the Trinity’s love is overflowing so much that we were created.
Sooo, if we are undeserving of God’s love, we should not put a litmus test to our love and compassion for our fellow man. We should not just have love and compassion for those we deem are deserving.
If I were AirForceFamily’s husband, I would certainly have a lot of words for the parish and the school when I returned from deployment. They would be civil, but they would be strong and to the point. She and the family have not been treated well.
At first, I wanted to just tell AirForceFamily to stop wining, suck it up, and soldier on. Then I realized that she was. It is tremendously hard to keep things going during the young kid/toddler years. Take one of the parents out of the mix, and life with four kids is really hard. I think you are doing great and your parish and school have let you down.
No one wants to be taken advantage of. No one wants to be a doormat. But, in some ways, the that is exactly what the Gospel commands.
One of the things our pastor has been talking about the past year is how undeserving we are of God’s love. It’s given freely, just because God loves us - in fact, the Trinity’s love is overflowing so much that we were created.
Sooo, if we are undeserving of God’s love, we should not put a litmus test to our love and compassion for our fellow man. We should not just have love and compassion for those we deem are deserving.
If I were AirForceFamily’s husband, I would certainly have a lot of words for the parish and the school when I returned from deployment. They would be civil, but they would be strong and to the point. She and the family have not been treated well.
At first, I wanted to just tell AirForceFamily to stop wining, suck it up, and soldier on. Then I realized that she was. It is tremendously hard to keep things going during the young kid/toddler years. Take one of the parents out of the mix, and life with four kids is really hard. I think you are doing great and your parish and school have let you down.
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EasterJoy
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I’m saying that it is ridiculous that anybody thought for 2 seconds that it would ever be appropriate to fine a parent $900 for being late, let alone telling her that she had to pay by the following week or have her child out of the school. I have no quarrel with the idea that being late even once could carry a penalty. If they had only told her, “we’ve never had someone this late, you’re going to have to talk to the administration right away to see what will be done about this, because I don’t know”, that would be a different kettle of fish. I also find it hard to believe they didn’t figure somebody was going to get the days wrong. Showing up at three when classes usually get out at three on a day when classes actually released at noon is not the same as showing up at six when classes always release at three. Three hours is not three hours.
As for the classes, maybe you say, “If you can’t make it to the classes, we still have to figure out how to get you this information, or otherwise your daughter can’t make her First Holy Communion this year.” You have to make sure the family does get the information, though. Two months is enough time to look at your check-off list and know who got the packets and who didn’t and if everyone has signed off that they actually read the information. Issues can come up that are too big for the program to handle, but then you hand it up to the pastor and figure out what to do. You don’t let the immediate family of the first communicant show up on time for a Mass that will be a highpoint of their daughter’s life only to find there is nowhere for the rest of them to sit.
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maryjk
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All very true. And true that the OP’s school. She didn’t pay the fine.
It is very possible that the teachers figured that the OP just didn’t care.
I know she did, she is here telling us that she cares.But how are her actions any different from a parent that couldn’t care less.
I can imagine the conversation between the teacher and the DRE or pastor.
DRE: What do you mean she hasn’t come to any of the classes/meetings?
Teacher: She says she can’t get a babysitter.
DRE: For two months???
Teacher: Yep.
DRE: So, you mean she doesn’t think it is important?
Teacher:
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ThyKingdomCome
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Probably too late in the thread, but…
Our church’s first communions are not well organized. The only pews reserved are for the children, and they sit in the front. The parents are required to find their own seats, and since it is at a regular Sunday mass, the church is standing room only. I don’t like it, but I believe the pastor does it that way beacuse FHC is supposed to be a community event, not just for the people receiving.
We don’t have pictures taken while the children receive. We are instructed not to take pictures during Mass at all. That’s ok with me. I just take pictures of my child after Mass, hands folded, in front of the altar or some other good location. I have gotten to SEE her receive though, and I know it would be extremely frustrating not to be able to do it. Perhaps in your situation, I would’ve asked someone else to come with me to Mass that day, if possible, so that I could sneak closer to simply watch her receive.
If I was in charge of the FHC Mass, my first order of business would be to make it clear that pictures were not to be taken during Mass, and that it is especially wrong to move into the aisle of the church to take a picture. Second, I would probably do reserved pews for families. Of course with such a big church, the number of pews reserved would still probably be huge, so you still might be quite far away. As far as what made your dd cry, I’m guessing that wasn’t something the church could’ve done.
In hindsight, it would’ve made sense for you to talk to her ahead of time, tell her that it would be crowded, and that she might not be able to see you, but that you would be there, and that you would come and get her, and that all she should worry about is receiving Jesus and thanking him afterwards. Of course, that is hindsight. Also keep in mind that whenever there is a big event that is really important to you, it is safe to assume nothing. Ask the teacher or the DRE, or even an mom who went through it last year (or all 3) ahead of time what things will be like, so that you don’t find yourself surprised and disappointed when the time comes.
Our church’s first communions are not well organized. The only pews reserved are for the children, and they sit in the front. The parents are required to find their own seats, and since it is at a regular Sunday mass, the church is standing room only. I don’t like it, but I believe the pastor does it that way beacuse FHC is supposed to be a community event, not just for the people receiving.
We don’t have pictures taken while the children receive. We are instructed not to take pictures during Mass at all. That’s ok with me. I just take pictures of my child after Mass, hands folded, in front of the altar or some other good location. I have gotten to SEE her receive though, and I know it would be extremely frustrating not to be able to do it. Perhaps in your situation, I would’ve asked someone else to come with me to Mass that day, if possible, so that I could sneak closer to simply watch her receive.
If I was in charge of the FHC Mass, my first order of business would be to make it clear that pictures were not to be taken during Mass, and that it is especially wrong to move into the aisle of the church to take a picture. Second, I would probably do reserved pews for families. Of course with such a big church, the number of pews reserved would still probably be huge, so you still might be quite far away. As far as what made your dd cry, I’m guessing that wasn’t something the church could’ve done.
In hindsight, it would’ve made sense for you to talk to her ahead of time, tell her that it would be crowded, and that she might not be able to see you, but that you would be there, and that you would come and get her, and that all she should worry about is receiving Jesus and thanking him afterwards. Of course, that is hindsight. Also keep in mind that whenever there is a big event that is really important to you, it is safe to assume nothing. Ask the teacher or the DRE, or even an mom who went through it last year (or all 3) ahead of time what things will be like, so that you don’t find yourself surprised and disappointed when the time comes.
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SamH
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So the school kicks the kid to curb and calls family services because the mother has abandoned their child. $900 is looking pretty good.
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Irishmom2
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Isn’t that being a bit dramatic?
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SamH
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Perhaps you haven’t been reading Easter Joy’s posts.
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EasterJoy
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The school calls family services only to find that, as was true in this case, they were at fault because the parent was never notified of the unusual early release time. Yes, that’s a great idea.
The school didn’t just do the right thing by waiving the fee, which would have been over the top even if the mistake had been the parent’s. In this case, the school owed the parents and the child a very big apology. The same goes for the lemonade incident, IMHO. One note on one day’s notice, and it is the mother’s fault that she couldn’t cough up the lemons, because of course the school couldn’t anticipate that anyone would be unable to comply with their directive on such short notice. In a normal school, there are about 15 lemons extra on the theory that someone will inevitably forget to buy the fruit or someone will think someone else put them in the car or they roll under the seat and are forgotten when the child is dropped off. Maybe if people start abusing the system, the reimbursement price for the fruit is made significantly higher than at the grocery store, but even so there is a little understanding built into the system.
Too much to ask, I guess.
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HouseArrest
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Really? Strong words? From a group of people who just volunteered and organized your daughter’s FHC? I would like to know what you would hope to accomplish with that.
As a volunteer, if I heard strong words from the husband I would be about done. After an event as emotional and difficult to pull off as a FHC with over 100 kids, I would be exhausted. The only words that would keep me going would be kind words of some sort. There would be one less volunteer for his next child’s FHC.
There’s a saying for situations like this one. It’s something like “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”.
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EasterJoy
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This mystery is solved when there is a conversation between the pastor and the parent, because if nothing else the pastor does care, and cares very deeply, whether every child in his pastoral care receives the sacraments and has the kind of experience that makes a lifelong and frequent communicant when she does.All very true. And true that the OP’s school. She didn’t pay the fine.
It is very possible that the teachers figured that the OP just didn’t care.
But how are her actions any different from a parent that couldn’t care less.
I can imagine the conversation between the teacher and the DRE or pastor.
DRE: What do you mean she hasn’t come to any of the classes/meetings?
Teacher: She says she can’t get a babysitter.
DRE: For two months???
Teacher: Yep.
DRE: So, you mean she doesn’t think it is important?
Teacher:
The good shepherd, after all, does not get so wound up with the ninety-nine who never stray that he can’t be bothered with the one who has turned up missing. That is also the attitude of the DREs I have known, and the attitude they want in their volunteers, too. This is, first and last, a pastoral enterprise.
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HouseArrest
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Easter Joy and maryjk, I don’t think we are really disagreeing. All three of us are volunteers, have been there done that, and struggle with determining if and when we are being taken advantage of. None of us created the (seemingly) extreme regs put into place by the school. Arguing about them is pointless, it’s not our situation.
We agree that something needs to be done with these families that use and abuse. If we do not, we know what happens. Since we are giving our all already, many other families suffer at the hands of a few. None of us wants that.
We agree that something needs to be done with these families that use and abuse. If we do not, we know what happens. Since we are giving our all already, many other families suffer at the hands of a few. None of us wants that.
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EasterJoy
Guest
You are right. I’m frustrated with the idea that it is OK to slap somebody with a $900 fine for picking their child up late, but it is frustrating to have families that don’t want to do their part, too. Some feel overwhelmed and don’t know how to navigate the system, but others don’t want to make an effort. The latter families make it unnecessarily hard on those who really do have difficulties that need accomodation, because those families use the accomodations in a self-serving way, and use up the generosity of the volunteers.
It’s kind of like dealing with students and families who think every extracurricular activity comes before school or that school is something you do when you feel like doing it. When you run into a parent/child duo who both have ADD or a single parent overwhelmed because his wife just left him to care for four children himself, people who really do need help in making deadlines and getting the most out of the child’s educational opportunities, the ones who went before can poison you on those who have reasons that deserve some serious and even extraordinary accomodation.
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jmcrae
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I lead a Youth Group, and believe me, if a parent were three hours late without phoning me, and without me being able to get hold of the parent by phone (did they try calling her at home or on her cell?), I’d be in touch with my boss to ask about my options - and one of them would certainly be to contact Child Services to take care of the child until the parent could be located.
Three hours is a really long time for a parent to be unavailable by phone and not showing up - I would assume that the parent had been in an accident and was unable to respond.
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