Discerning homosexuality & same sex marriage in the light of the gospel.

[2nd_Adam]

The concept of mortal and venial sins comes from 1 John 5:16-17, “If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.”

Mortal sins are the sins that lead to death meaning spiritual death, separation from God for all eternity unless forgiven. Venial sins, sins that don’t lead to death, are relatively minor although not to be taken lightly since they make it easier to fall into mortal sin.

I assume this is the passage in Ezekiel that you are talking about. You didn’t specify.

Ezek 16:48-50 “As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.”

Some gay apologists use this passage to make the claim that the real sin of Sodom was not homosexuality but, rather, inhospitality. A close look at the passage shows that this is not the case. Yes, the people of Sodom were inhospitable. They did not help the needy. However, their inhospitality had been a way of life. It wasn’t a one-time thing that happened when the angels came to the city. It was when they tried to have sex with them, whom they believed to be men, that God destroyed the city. Verse 50 says that God destroyed the city because of an abomination it had committed. If inhospitality was that abomination, God would have already destroyed the city. The abomination was their desire to engage in homosexual acts.

I’m not sure what your point is regarding the sin committed by Lot’s daughters after they fled Sodom. The fact that they also sinned does not negate or even lessen the sin of Sodom.

Before you come to that conclusion, have you considered what Jesus revealed about the sin of Sodom?

 

[garysibio]

Before you come to that conclusion, have you considered what Jesus revealed about the sin of Sodom?

Let’s go this route. Why don’t you tell me what you think Jesus said about the sin of Sodom.

 

[choy]

Same sex marriage is legal in some of the states in America. Same sex marriage is more common around the world. Therefore, I’m not sure what you mean by your post.

i’m sorry but i don’t believe this. name a country outside north america and europe that allows same sex marriage. okay, throw in australia and new zealand which are european (british) in culture anyway

 

[Dokimas]

Same sex marriage is legal in some of the states in America. Same sex marriage is more common around the world. Therefore, I’m not sure what you mean by your post.

It was a comment about the Bible verse you were speaking about. Who cares what the ‘world’ is doing. God’s will is usually against what the world says is correct.

 

[hosemonkey]

I think you guys completely ignore the same sex marriages being conducted in churches in the United States and around the world. Just because Catholics believe that same sex marriages does not exist, does not change the fact that same sex marriages are being performed in Christians churches all the time.

Abortions are being performed in countless cities around the world, does that mean that it is any less wrong? I am still not sure why you as a self-proclaimed Christian, are still trying to explain away or justify this disgusting aberration. This attempt to revise the clear meaning of Scripture is nothing less than a blatant ploy by the homosexual lobby to somehow change the face of their disordered perversion. What is your place in this agenda?
“Right is right, even if nobody is doing it. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”

 

[Dokimas]

We can discuss the 8 Scriptures on homosexuality if you want.

2nd Adam, go right ahead and start the discussion. Tell us the verses, tell us why they are for or against gay marriage. Then we’ll comment.​

If you include the Sodom and Gomorah veres of Gen, then you need to tell us what you think the men wanted to do with the guests of Lot. Include in your explanation what Lot was expecting the men to do with his daughters which he offered intead of his ‘male’ guests. This is VITAL to the understanding of those verses vs your ideas about what went on in Sodom and your ideas pro gay marriage.

 

[Dokimas]

Before you come to that conclusion, have you considered what Jesus revealed about the sin of Sodom?

You’ve mentioned this before, haven’t you. We’re all patiently waiting for the verses you’re referring to and for your explanation of what you think Jesus thought of the sin of Sodom?​

If it’s the verse that says in the end it will be better for Sodom than the city Jesus was speaking about, well maybe there’s gradation of hell.

 

[Dokimas]

I think you guys completely ignore the same sex marriages being conducted in churches in the United States and around the world. Just because Catholics believe that same sex marriages does not exist, does not change the fact that same sex marriages are being performed in Christians churches all the time.

Wasn’t it you, 2nd Adam, that started the thread about Protestant churches not getting things correct? The marriage of gays would fall under that catagory.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Gen. 1 & 2 - we see from the beginning that the complimentarity of the sexes reflects God’s inner unity and His creative power and Fatherhood. God created man and woman to become one flesh which is consummated in the act of marital love.

Gen. 2:18 – throughout the creation story, God says “it is good” seven times. But when God pointed out that man was alone, God says “it is not good.” God then created woman. Man and woman therefore belong together by God’s design, according to His natural and supernatural law.

Gen. 2:24 – God created man and woman so that they could share communion. This communion is consummated in the marital act (which must be between a man and a woman). This communion is also a reflection of the eternal communion of the Blessed Trinity, who created man in His own image and likeness.

Gen. 19:24-28 - the Lord rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah as punishment for the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality perverts God’s covenant with humanity.

Gen 13:13; 18:20: while homosexuals argue that the sin in Genesis 19 was the sin of “inhospitality,” these verses show that the Sodomites were evil and wicked people before the alleged sin of inhospitality. That is because the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality, not inhospitality. In fact, 2 Pet 2:6:8 says that Lot witnessed their evil sexual practices “day after day.” The Sodomites’ sin was daily and pervasive.

Gen 19:5: this confirms that the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Here, the Sodomites mistaken the two angels for men and, surrounding Lot’s house, ask to have sex with them. When the yell to Lot “bring them out that we may know them,” the Hebrew for “to know” (yadah) in Gen 19:5 means having sexual relations. See, for example, Gen 4:25 where “yadah” refers to sexual relations between Adam and Eve.

2 Pet 2:6-10: Peter also proves that the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality. He says God condemned them for “licentiousness” and “lust of defiling passion,” which is where we get the title “Sodomite” for a homosexual. The Greek “aselgeia anastrophes” for lustful behavior is also found in Rom 13:13; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19 and Jude 4.

Jude 7: Jude also confirms the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Jude says they “indulged in unnatural lust” (Greek, ekporneusasai) and went after “strange flesh” (Greek, sarkos heteras) in reference to their homosexual sins.

2 Peter 2:4-6: Peter also reveals that the Sodomites are suffering in hell for their sins by comparing the Sodomites’ punishment to the eternal punishment of the evil angels. Just as God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell, so He did the same with the Sodomites when He “condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly.”

Jude 5-7: Like Peter, Jude confirms that the Sodomites are in hell by saying that they had the same fate as the evil angels. Jude says just as the evil angels were condemned to hell, the Sodomites “likewise” (Greek, hos) acted immorally and are undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. “Undergoing” (Greek, upechousai) is a present participle which means their suffering is ongoing. See also the clear polarity between those who are saved (v.5) and those who are condemned (vv. 6-7,11,13).

Lev. 18:22, 29 - God commands a man never to lie with a male as with a female, or he will be cut off. This refers to supernatural death which is eternal separation from God. While the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated by the New Covenant, the Church has adopted their moral principles. Thus, the moral prohibitions on homosexuality still apply in the New Covenant, as Peter, Paul and Jude demonstrate.

Lev. 20:13 - God says that if a man lies with another man, he shall be put to death. From the very beginning, God has revealed that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, unhealthy, and mortally sinful.

Deut. 22:5 - cross-dressing is also considered an abomination before God.

Matt. 19:6 - after referring to God’s divine plan for man and woman, Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh, which ultimately reflects God’s union with humanity through the Church. Homosexual unions pervert this divine truth of God’s love for and union with the human race.

Rom. 1:26 - also, when a woman lies with another women (lesbianism), this is unnatural and a perversion. God wants His children to be pure and holy as He is holy. Paul condemns all homosexual acts, whether committed by men or women.

Rom. 1:27 – Paul calls the practice of homosexuality shameless, unnatural and a perversity. It is contrary to the natural law, as it eviscerates the life-giving aspect of human sexuality and reduces it to a selfish, pleasure-seeking end.

1 Cor 6:9: Paul teaches that sodomites will not enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for “sodomite” (arsenokoites) literally means “male copulation” or “male sexual relations.” The Greek “arsen” means “male” and “koites” means “coitus” or “sexual relations.” Paul uses the same word in 1 Tim 1:10.

1 Tim. 1:10 - sodomites are called ungodly and sinners, unholy and profane, lawless and disobedient. They are called by God to chastity. It is important to note that homosexual attractions and inclinations, while disordered and dangerous, are not by themselves sinful per se. It is the acting out on homosexual attraction that is sinful. Those with homosexual desires can still live a life worthy of Christ by remaining chaste and pure as they abstain from acting out on their desires.
Scripture Cathloic
John Salza

 

[hosemonkey]

Gen. 1 & 2 - we see from the beginning that the complimentarity of the sexes reflects God’s inner unity and His creative power and Fatherhood. God created man and woman to become one flesh which is consummated in the act of marital love.

Gen. 2:18 – throughout the creation story, God says “it is good” seven times. But when God pointed out that man was alone, God says “it is not good.” God then created woman. Man and woman therefore belong together by God’s design, according to His natural and supernatural law.

Right on! Well said. Do you foolish homos really think that the Holy Scriptures and the Catholic Church had it wrong all these years?

 

[Dokimas]

Bill, you did a great job finding pertenant verses on the subject. Very well done. Thank you.​

Let me guess what 2nd Adam will say in response: Same sex sex outside marriage is a sin; that’s why we should let them marry so it won’t be sin anymore.​

If that will be 2nd Adam’s response, I think it’s circular reasoning AT BEST. 2nd Adam seems to forget God doesn’t want to cover up sin but to change us so we don’t live in sin any longer. Sure we won’t be totally free til Heaven. Yes Paul struggled; but he didn’t make excuses and for him, sin was sin and there was no way that he wanted to legitamize sin. He wanted to be set free from practicing such things as were his besetting sins.​

BTW, what I think 2nd Adam’s response will be is based on what I think he’s responded before. I may be wrong. If so, I’m sure 2nd Adam will straighten me out and then I’ll apologize.

 

[Dokimas]

Right on! Well said. Do you foolish homos really think that the Holy Scriptures and the Catholic Church had it wrong all these years?

Are you sure God would choose your words for those that practice the sin of homosexuality?​

Remember, Jesus died for those with the sin of homosexuality, just as He died for your sins and mine. Better to pray for homosexuals than call them names.

 

[hosemonkey]

Are you sure God would choose your words for those that practice the sin of homosexuality?​

Remember, Jesus died for those with the sin of homosexuality, just as He died for your sins and mine. Better to pray for homosexuals than call them names.

Then let me substitute the word “sodomite” for homo which is just short for homosexual.

 

[Dokimas]

Then let me substitute the word “sodomite” for homo which is just short for homosexual.

IMO, it still has the feeling of being judgmental. I surely don’t mean to judge you, but that’s the way its coming across.

 

[hosemonkey]

IMO, it still has the feeling of being judgmental. I surely don’t mean to judge you, but that’s the way its coming across.

It is not me that is being judgmental, it is God. He says that homosexuality is an abomination, I am merely agreeing with Him.

 

[garysibio]

Right on! Well said. Do you foolish homos really think that the Holy Scriptures and the Catholic Church had it wrong all these years?

While I agree that homosexuality is sinful, let’s not call them repulsive names on a Catholic forum. I’m not a moderator, I just find your reference repulsive.

 

[garysibio]

Then let me substitute the word “sodomite” for homo which is just short for homosexual.

While you are correct about its origin, the word has taken on an implication of insult.

 

[Dokimas]

It is not me that is being judgmental, it is God. He says that homosexuality is an abomination, I am merely agreeing with Him.

Jas 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.​

God doesn’t want to judge them; He wanst to save them from their sins; that’s His plan for you and me, too.​

In your comments (and the attitude you seem to have against homosexuals) do you think you are revealing God’s mercy to homosexuals?​

Do you think they are beyond salvation?

 

[hosemonkey]

Jas 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.​

God doesn’t want to judge them; He wanst to save them from their sins; that’s His plan for you and me, too.​

In your comments (and the attitude you seem to have against homosexuals) do you think you are revealing God’s mercy to homosexuals?​

Do you think they are beyond salvation?

Don’t be obtuse. Homosexuals have a choice, the way of life or the way of death and damnation. Just as we all do. God may not want to judge them, but He WILL. He is, after all, a just God. Tragically, most ignore God’s mercy and choose to die in their sins. Worst of all, they attempt to deceive themselves and others, call good evil and evil good. No one who asks for mercy is denied it, but you gotta ask. I detest homosexuality, I do not detest homosexuals.

 

[Dokimas]

Don’t be obtuse. Homosexuals have a choice, the way of life or the way of death and damnation. Just as we all do. God may not want to judge them, but He WILL. He is, after all, a just God. Tragically, most ignore God’s mercy and choose to die in their sins. Worst of all, they attempt to deceive themselves and others, call good evil and evil good. No one who asks for mercy is denied it, but you gotta ask. I detest homosexuality, I do not detest homosexuals.

I may be being obtuse but you still sound hateful toward homosexuals and their immoral soul which could spend eternity in hell.​

I suspect you never look upon a woman to lust after her, even for a few seconds? (or a man if you’re a woman). If you ever lust, your commiting sin, as Jesus said. Let’s not be quit to spot the specks or logs in others eyes.