Discerning homosexuality & same sex marriage in the light of the gospel.

[Dokimas]

What were the sins of Sodom that they needed to repent of? I believe it’s found in Ezekiel.

This is your only response to my post???

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is your only response to my post???

We are trying our best by the grace of God to correctly handle the Word of Truth. If you are going to use the Sodom account to condemn all homosexual relationships including those homosexual Christians that have a commited monogamous relationship and also could be married (in the church and civil law), then please search the Scriptures and tell us what are the sins of Sodom which God sent the Angels to destroy the city in righteous perfect, holy, and moral judgement. I’ll help you. Look for the sins of Sodom in Ezekiel and please post the Scripture reference.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Who cares in the context of your argument? God judged it.

Did God judge Sodom on the basis of homosexuality? Please look at the thread topic and answer the question according to the Word of God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Who cares in the context of your argument? God judged it.

To put this in 21st century context, when the terrorist attack on Sept 11 occurred, two fundamentalist Christian leaders (Falwell and Robertson) stated that God’s judgment of America occurred in the event of Sept 11 on the basis of abortion and homosexuality. Those are some very large claims by Evangelical leaders which has manifested in a deep hatred for homosexuals found in many Evangelicals. Have you seen the bumper sticker of “God hate fags”? Something right wing American conservative Protestantism can be so evil, drifting further away from the gospel. Abortion is defintely a sin since the Scripture teaching is clear that life begins at conception or even before that in the mind of God.

 

[Dokimas]

We are trying our best by the grace of God to correctly handle the Word of Truth. If you are going to use the Sodom account to condemn all homosexual relationships including those homosexual Christians that have a commited monogamous relationship and also could be married (in the church and civil law), then please search the Scriptures and tell us what are the sins of Sodom which God sent the Angels to destroy the city in righteous perfect, holy, and moral judgement. I’ll help you. Look for the sins of Sodom in Ezekiel and please post the Scripture reference.

Did I say anything about Sodom and homosexuallity??? I believe the only thing I said about Sodom was that they were destroyed because they did not repent.​

What do you think the men of Sodom wanted to do with those men (angels) visiting Lot remembering what Lot was willing to do with his daughters?​

Why did the grace of God not extend to Sodom?

 

[Dokimas]

Eze 16:49 "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.​

Could pride include that we know more about what marriage should be than God?​

To what extent is ‘idleness is the devil’s workshop’?

 

[Dokimas]

Did God judge Sodom on the basis of homosexuality? Please look at the thread topic and answer the question according to the Word of God.

You brought up Sodom in our discussion so it is you that is off topic if they were not judged because of homosexuality.​

 

[Dokimas]

To put this in 21st century context, when the terrorist attack on Sept 11 occurred, two fundamentalist Christian leaders (Falwell and Robertson) stated that God’s judgment of America occurred in the event of Sept 11 on the basis of abortion and homosexuality. Those are some very large claims by Evangelical leaders which has manifested in a deep hatred for homosexuals found in many Evangelicals. Have you seen the bumper sticker of “God hate fags”? Something right wing American conservative Protestantism can be so evil, drifting further away from the gospel. Abortion is defintely a sin since the Scripture teaching is clear that life begins at conception or even before that in the mind of God.

I speak for me not Mr Falwell and Mr Robertson.​

You seem to have avoided my points. Why?​

Is there a hell? Do people go there? If so, why do people end up there if they don’t go to Heaven?​

I’m not sure what you mean when you use the term ‘Evangelical’ but the way I use it I would classify myself as one; I don’t hate homosexuals; I hate all my sins and all the sins of others because they (sins) cause pain and death and separation from God of which I believe the Bible teaches homosexuality is one (a sin).

 

[NotTooSmart]

However, God did not speak much about homosexuality in the Scriptures. Same sex marrriage is never mentioned in the Word of God (Bible).

All that it takes is once, and that is sufficient.

But I can think of two in the space of 5 seconds.

1. Cor 6:9
   Romans 1:26-27

In this case, God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

If homosexuality is outside of God’s design, then same sex marriage must also be by definition.

 

[NotTooSmart]

To put this in 21st century context, when the terrorist attack on Sept 11 occurred, two fundamentalist Christian leaders (Falwell and Robertson) stated that God’s judgment of America occurred in the event of Sept 11 on the basis of abortion and homosexuality. Those are some very large claims by Evangelical leaders which has manifested in a deep hatred for homosexuals found in many Evangelicals. Have you seen the bumper sticker of “God hate fags”? Something right wing American conservative Protestantism can be so evil, drifting further away from the gospel. Abortion is defintely a sin since the Scripture teaching is clear that life begins at conception or even before that in the mind of God.

Just because Falwell and Robertson frequently go over the top, it doesn’t necessarily follow that homosexuality is not outside of God’s design.

“God hates fags” is not a bumper sticker as far as I know. As far as I know it is confined to one marginally cultish group ins Westboro Kansas, the Westboro Baptist church. If you have proof to the opposite, please bring it forth. Otherwise I will continue to assume that is the case.

Just because conservative Catholics and Conservative Evangelicals agree that homosexuality is outside of God’s design, it does not necessarily follow that we hate homosexuals. Otherwise we would hate all sinners.

I don’t know what your angle on this is. If your angle is that us fundamentalist, evangelical types have a disproportionate cow over homosexuality as opposed to other sins, that is one thing. If your angle is that homosexuality is not a sin according to God and is therefore perfectly A OK, that is another.
As far as moral teaching goes, Catholicism is spot on (well the birth control stuff I am not sold on, but who knows they might even be right on that one also).

 

[NotTooSmart]

Oh and one more thing, although I am not going to carry this to the extent that my Catholic brothers and sisters do, I do believe in tradition with a small “t” . And in this case, it is very helpful.

If conservative Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians through almost 2000 years of Christianity have unanimously agreed that homosexuality is outside of God design, who am I or anybody else to all of a sudden 2000 years after the fact,to all of a sudden start getting brand new revelations from God on this subject.

This is a case in point of what Keith Matthison calls “Solo Scriptura”, that is reading Scripture outside of the light of the church.

I don’t think so.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Did I say anything about Sodom and homosexuallity??? I believe the only thing I said about Sodom was that they were destroyed because they did not repent.​

What do you think the men of Sodom wanted to do with those men (angels) visiting Lot remembering what Lot was willing to do with his daughters?​

Why did the grace of God not extend to Sodom?

Please stay on the thread topic my friend and all of this will make sense.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Eze 16:49 "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.​

Could pride include that we know more about what marriage should be than God?​

To what extent is ‘idleness is the devil’s workshop’?

Thank you for showing us the sin of Sodom, causing God to destroy it. Jesus also mentioned the sin of Sodom which can help us on the issue too. Obviously homosexuality is not mentioned in Sodom’s list of sin.

I mentioned that there are 8 verses used by certain Christians to hold their position that all acts of homosexuality to be sin and an abomination . The Sodom account is one of the main ones, as well as Romans 1, used to discriminate against those with a different sexual orientation than most of us. I would like to correct my statement that there are 8 verses. Rather, there are only 6 verses dealing with the subject of homosexuality. We have discussed the Sodom account and Romans 1 in part, showing that both accounts are not centered around homosexuality. Please feel free to find the 4 additional verses on homosexuality and let’s discuss them in proper context, and through the lenses of the gospel.

 

[2nd_Adam]

All that it takes is once, and that is sufficient.

But I can think of two in the space of 5 seconds.

1. Cor 6:9
   Romans 1:26-27

In this case, God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

If homosexuality is outside of God’s design, then same sex marriage must also be by definition.

We already discussed Romans 1, but we can look at it again. But please read the previous postings on Romans 1. Okay, now look at 1 Cor 6:9 and explain your understanding of it. It would help us if you posted it in context, maybe add a few verses before and a few after if people are not familar with 1 Cor 6:9.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I think Jesus increased the light and expounded the righteous requirement of God for us. Jesus is revealing that we are all immoral and sinful… independent from our sexual orientation. Christians have a tendency to throw stones at those with a different sexual orientation, when Jesus’ account is quite different for the women caught in adultery. Stone throwing is not the gospel of God.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother [2] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults [3] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell [4] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny. [5]

Lust
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Divorce
31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil. [6]

Retaliation
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, [7] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, [8] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus

That is the problem with the Gospel - it is terrifyingly radical. Even so, that does not - AFAICS - vindicate the rightness of homosexual practice. The Gospel is not less moral than before (the OT has no concept of morality, rather strikingly) - if anything, it is more moral than the OT; because it goes beyond being a mere external code perhaps.​

Because all are sinful, even apart from orientation, there is no need to devote special attention to homosexuality - although it is wrong, it is only one thing that is wrong; we are all wrong, and not just in sexual matters; which absolutely destroys all basis for any heterosexual “boasting” over the unrighteousness of homosexuals in that area. Homosexuals may well need to repent - but so do their critics. Both are at fault, and only God is in the right. That is how I see the things you mention, anyway; maybe we are looking at the subject in different ways. I do strongly agree that “stone-throwing is not the gospel of God”. Maybe I’m missing something ?

 

[Dokimas]

Please stay on the thread topic my friend and all of this will make sense.

If I go off topic it’s because I’m responding to you.​

Boy it would be nice for you to answer my posts; they have been relevant to the topic.

 

[Dokimas]

Thank you for showing us the sin of Sodom, causing God to destroy it. Jesus also mentioned the sin of Sodom which can help us on the issue too. Obviously homosexuality is not mentioned in Sodom’s list of sin.

I mentioned that there are 8 verses used by certain Christians to hold their position that all acts of homosexuality to be sin and an abomination . The Sodom account is one of the main ones, as well as Romans 1, used to discriminate against those with a different sexual orientation than most of us. I would like to correct my statement that there are 8 verses. Rather, there are only 6 verses dealing with the subject of homosexuality. We have discussed the Sodom account and Romans 1 in part, showing that both accounts are not centered around homosexuality. Please feel free to find the 4 additional verses on homosexuality and let’s discuss them in proper context, and through the lenses of the gospel.

Why don’t you tell us the Scriptures you want to discuss? And why don’t you answer specifics of what I’ve said?​

You have not dealt with my comments about Romans 1. You have not answered my questions about people going to hell and why they do, if they do.​

You have not said if homosexuality is sin as all sex not between one husband and one wife as God set it up in Genesis 1-3 and Jesus acknowledged as I’ve already said and you seemingly have ignored.​

Seems this is turning into a game.

 

[Dokimas]

We already discussed Romans 1, but we can look at it again. But please read the previous postings on Romans 1. Okay, now look at 1 Cor 6:9 and explain your understanding of it. It would help us if you posted it in context, maybe add a few verses before and a few after if people are not familar with 1 Cor 6:9.

Please post your comments again about Romans 1 and in them please respond to my comments.​

Please post the verses you want from 1 Cor 6 and explain your understanding.​

Thank you.

 

[NotTooSmart]

We already discussed Romans 1, but we can look at it again. But please read the previous postings on Romans 1. Okay, now look at 1 Cor 6:9 and explain your understanding of it. It would help us if you posted it in context, maybe add a few verses before and a few after if people are not familar with 1 Cor 6:9.

I understand the basic gist of the “homosexuality is OK according to God’s word” argument…

First of all, the Old Testament Scriptures on this topic are, well, Old Testamant.

Second of all, the New Testament Scriptures on this topic are in context of passages that address other issues.

I will for the time let point 1 rest.

Concerning point two, even if this is true, it does not negate the fact that Paul explicitely words these passages in such a way that the only way one can conclude that “homosexuality is OK according to God’s word” is to rip verses 26-27 out of Romans 1 and to rip the word “homosexuals” out of 1 Corinthians 6:9.

Which sort of begs the question why I should rip anything out of these passages.

Second of all, if I were to conclude that “homosexuality is OK according to God’s word” I would also have to conclude that “having sex with my cat is OK according to God’s word”. After all, neither Jesus or Paul addressed the issue of “having sex with my cat”.

Finally, I would love to see evidence that this “homosexuality is OK according to God’s word” argument is any more than say 30 or so years ago and actually is compatible with historical Christianity. Without this evidence, this would seem to me to be a prime example of what Keith Matthison calls “Solo Scriptura”.

I would have to ask the question why should I accept this innovative interpretation of God’s word that is 30 years old or so (coinciding with the time frame that homosexuality has become acceptible in our culture) and reject 2000 years of historic Christianity (tradition with a small “t”) as practiced by Bible believing Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I speak for me not Mr Falwell and Mr Robertson.​

You seem to have avoided my points. Why?​

Is there a hell? Do people go there? If so, why do people end up there if they don’t go to Heaven?​

I’m not sure what you mean when you use the term ‘Evangelical’ but the way I use it I would classify myself as one; I don’t hate homosexuals; I hate all my sins and all the sins of others because they (sins) cause pain and death and separation from God of which I believe the Bible teaches homosexuality is one (a sin).

I think the issue is way bigger than me and you as individuals. Conservative Fundamental protestantism has drifted from the mission of proclaiming Christ and Him crucified for sinners to a moral political agenda which manifested a very evil attitude toward homosexuals for some or even many Evangelicals. Republican right wing conservative political agenda is really a moral crusade and a moral gospel pushed by groups like the Christian Coalition, Moral Majority, and Focus on the Family. I believe if modern Evangelical Protestants had a higher view of the church, then parachurch groups like I mentioned would not have so much influence over them. You see, Catholic Chrisitans have a valid point with a higher view of the church (even though I do not believe it to be the One True Church).

I believe all sex outside of marriage is sin. I have not come to a conclusion that same sex marriage is a sin or not. Same sex marriage between Christians… those married through civil law and by the church can have God’s blessing. It is a debatable issue within the universal visible church. Because certain Christians or certain denominations embrace same sex marriage does not make them apostate. A person’s view on same sex marriage has nothing to do with the contents of the gospel of God. A Christian first should examine the Scriptures to discern the will of God, all of the Scriptures to come to a conclusion on such an important and contemporary issue regarding same sex marriage. I am definitely an Evangelical by the historical meaning of the word. Did you know Bob Jones University (conservative Evangelical college) did not allow inter-racial dating and marriage just a few years ago? They taught that it was sin for Christians to have inter-racial marriages… according to the Scriptures. You see, there is mishandling of the Scriptures in all areas of Christianity used to hurt and discriminate against others. Did you know conservative bible based churches used the Scriptures to support American slavery through mishandling the Scriptures prior to the Civil War?