Discerning homosexuality & same sex marriage in the light of the gospel.

[NotTooSmart]

I’m not sure what the Early Church Fathers wrote about homosexuality and same sex marriage. What did Augustine have to say on these topics? Can you please quote the Church Fathers on our thread topic.

I am trying to verify if there is any context in the position you are espousing within Christianity.

You cite a book. Does that book claim any historical precedence for the church approval of homosexuality and approval of gay marriage outside of the last thirty years. If not, I would think that would be very telling.

Because I know of absolutely no historical precedence for the church approval of homosexuality.

Unless you can bring forth evidence to the contrary, I have no reason but to believe that your book is proposing a nice, creative, moral theology that is unheard of in the 2000 years of historic Christianity. That would be nothing else but moral theology restorationalism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am trying to verify if there is any context in the position you are espousing within Christianity.

You cite a book. Does that book claim any historical precedence for the church approval of homosexuality and approval of gay marriage outside of the last thirty years. If not, I would think that would be very telling.

Because I know of absolutely no historical precedence for the church approval of homosexuality.

Unless you can bring forth evidence to the contrary, I have no reason but to believe that your book is proposing a nice, creative, moral theology that is unheard of in the 2000 years of historic Christianity. That would be nothing else but moral theology restorationalism.

Anybody out there know if the early Church Fathers wrote anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? Any early church history out there addressing these issues? Did Augustine write anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? I’m open to reading sacred written tradition on the issue which would be older that Vatican II. I think the obsession of refuting homosexuality and same sex marriage is relatively a new phenomenon in the church.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Anybody out there know if the early Church Fathers wrote anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? Any early church history out there addressing these issues? Did Augustine write anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? I’m open to reading sacred written tradition on the issue which would be older that Vatican II. I think the obsession of refuting homosexuality and same sex marriage is relatively a new phenomenon in the church.

Actually it is simpler than this.

Does anybody know any denomination or group of Christians that performed same sex marriage or taught that homosexuality is ok. Is there any precedence for any of this in the early church fathers.

The law of Moses clearly condemned same sex sexual relationships. Now I realize that we are not under the law as Christians, but at the same time Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the prophets. In other words, basic morality was not relaxed with the New Covenant. So I guess what I am looking for is evidence that any of the Early Church Fathers considered same sex sexual relationships ok and a part of the law that was fulfilled in Christ.

I think that this teaching that homosexuality and gay marriage are ok is a recent phenomenon in the church and am looking for evidence to the contrary.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Actually it is simpler than this.

Does anybody know any denomination or group of Christians that performed same sex marriage or taught that homosexuality is ok. Is there any precedence for any of this in the early church fathers.

The law of Moses clearly condemned same sex sexual relationships. Now I realize that we are not under the law as Christians, but at the same time Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the prophets. In other words, basic morality was not relaxed with the New Covenant. So I guess what I am looking for is evidence that any of the Early Church Fathers considered same sex sexual relationships ok and a part of the law that was fulfilled in Christ.

I think that this teaching that homosexuality and gay marriage are ok is a recent phenomenon in the church and am looking for evidence to the contrary.

We have to agree that the Early Church Fathers were silent on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. If you want to discuss the 600 or so Levitical Laws, let’s discuss them all. I think we both break many of them all the time. Do you stone your disobedient children as commanded? Does your church stone those caught in adultery as commanded. Do you eat pork chops, bacon, shrimp, lobster, or crab? Do you think it’s sin to have sex with your wife during her menstrual period?

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Actually it is simpler than this.

Does anybody know any denomination or group of Christians that performed same sex marriage or taught that homosexuality is ok. Is there any precedence for any of this in the early church fathers.

The law of Moses clearly condemned same sex sexual relationships. Now I realize that we are not under the law as Christians, but at the same time Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the prophets. In other words, basic morality was not relaxed with the New Covenant. So I guess what I am looking for is evidence that any of the Early Church Fathers considered same sex sexual relationships ok and a part of the law that was fulfilled in Christ.

I think that this teaching that homosexuality and gay marriage are ok is a recent phenomenon in the church and am looking for evidence to the contrary.

Matthew 10:
7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9: Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10: Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11: And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12: And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13: And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15: Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Mark 6:
7: And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8: And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9: But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10: And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12: And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13: And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Matthew 12:
30: He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31: Wherefore I say unto you, *All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. *
33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36: But I say unto you, *That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. *

 

[NotTooSmart]

We have to agree that the Early Church Fathers were silent on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. If you want to discuss the 600 or so Levitical Laws, let’s discuss them all. I think we both break many of them all the time. Do you stone your disobedient children as commanded? Does your church stone those caught in adultery as commanded. Do you eat pork chops, bacon, shrimp, lobster, or crab? Do you think it’s sin to have sex with your wife during her menstrual period?

I have decided to start another thread about the history of the church with respect to same sex sexual relationships. I want to put this issue in its historical context before I do any flinging of Bible verses around.

As far as Leviticus goes, do you believe that having sex with your cat is OK with God? Why or why not?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have decided to start another thread about the history of the church with respect to same sex sexual relationships. I want to put this issue in its historical context before I do any flinging of Bible verses around.

As far as Leviticus goes, do you believe that having sex with your cat is OK with God? Why or why not?

The best source of history of the church on homosexuality is the Scriptures.

Genesis 19-1-29
Judges 19-1-30
Leviticus 18:1-30
Leviticus 20:1-27
1 Cor 6: 9-17
1 Tim 1:3-13
Jude 1-25
Rom 1

All of these verses need to be correctly handled as commanded by God (1 Tim) in its proper context. Like all of Scripture, proper hermeneutics is crucial. All of the verses need to be understood within historical cultural norms, linguistic, original language and English equivalencies, and overall central major themes in the Bible. I hope we all understand that our English translations are limited. Listen to the experts in the original languages and we might get some new insights on this great debate of our generation. Did Paul condemn all homosexual relationship, or was he addressing homosexual prostitution, religious orgies common in his day, etc… I’m not ready to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ who are homosexuals and commit to a monogamous married relationship before God. Scriptures when read beyond the surface, does not support condemnation of all types of homosexual relationships. It’s similar to heterosexual sexual relationships. Some of those relationships are sin, and some are blessed by God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Anybody out there know if the early Church Fathers wrote anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? Any early church history out there addressing these issues? Did Augustine write anything about homosexuality or same sex marriage? I’m open to reading sacred written tradition on the issue which would be older that Vatican II. I think the obsession of refuting homosexuality and same sex marriage is relatively a new phenomenon in the church.

Here are some quotes from Early Church Documents and Early Church Fathers concerning the issue of homosexuals.

“You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born.” Didache 2:2 (A.D. 90).

“[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And any one who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods.” Justin Martyr, First Apology 27 (A.D. 151).

“All honor to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was, who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians the mystery of the mother of the gods . . . condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks, and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Scythians.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[According to Greek myth] Baubo [a female native of Elusis] having received [the goddess] Demeter hospitably, reached to her a refreshing draught; and on her refusing it, not having any inclination to drink (for she was very sad), and Baubo having become annoyed, thinking herself slighted, uncovered her shame, and exhibited her nudity to the goddess. Demeter is delighted with the sight–pleased, I repeat, at the spectacle. These are the secret mysteries of the Athenians; these Orpheus records.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these–so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

“[God forbid the Jews to eat certain foods for symbolic reasons:] For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean, because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the Law mean when it…forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice…Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women.” Novatian, The Jewish Foods 3 (A.D. 250).

“[T]urn your looks to the abominations, not less to be deplored, of another kind of spectacle…Men are emasculated, and all the pride and vigor of their sex is effeminated in the disgrace of their enervated body; and he is more pleasing there who has most completely broken down the man into the woman. He grows into praise by virtue of his crime; and the more he is degraded, the more skillful he is considered to be. Such a one is looked upon–oh shame!–and looked upon with pleasure…nor is there wanting authority for the enticing abomination…that Jupiter of theirs [is] not more supreme in dominion than in vice, inflamed with earthly love in the midst of his own thunders…now breaking forth by the help of birds to violate the purity of boys. And now put the question: Can he who looks upon such things be healthy-minded or modest? Men imitate the gods whom they adore, and to such miserable beings their crimes become their religion.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:8 (A.D. 253).

“Oh, if placed on that lofty watch-tower, you could gaze into the secret places–if you could open the closed doors of sleeping chambers and recall their dark recesses to the perception of sight–you would behold things done by immodest persons which no chaste eye could look upon; you would see what even to see is a crime; you would see what people embruted with the madness of vice deny that they have done, and yet hasten to do–men with frenzied lusts rushing upon men, doing things which afford no gratification even to those who do them.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:9 (A.D. 253).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers.” Basil the Great, Letters 217:62 (A.D. 367).

“If you [O, monk] are young in either body or mind, shun the companionship of other young men and avoid them as you would a flame. For through them the enemy has kindled the desires of many and then handed them over to eternal fire, hurling them into the vile pit of the five cities under the pretense of spiritual love. At meals take a seat far from other young men. In lying down to sleep let not their clothes be near yours, but rather have an old man between you. When a young man converses with you, or sings psalms facing you, answer him with eyes cast down, lest perhaps by gazing at his face you receive a seed of desire sown by the enemy and reap sheaves of corruption and ruin. Whether in the house or in a place where there is no one to see your actions, be not found in his company under the pretense either of studying the divine oracles or of any other business whatsoever, however necessary.” Basil the Great, The Renunciation of the World (A.D. 373).

“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty…should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced. And if all that was done among them was related, it would be seen that they openly outraged nature, and there was none to restrain them… As for their passion for boys, whom they called their ‘paedica,’ it is not fit to be named.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Titus 5 (A.D. 390]).

“[Certain men in church] come in gazing about at the beauty of women; others curious about the blooming youth of boys. After this, do you not marvel that [lightning] bolts are not launched [from heaven], and all these things are not plucked up from their foundations? For worthy both of thunderbolts and hell are the things that are done; but God, who is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forbears awhile his wrath, calling you to repentance and amendment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 3:3 (A.D. 391).

“All of these affections [in Rom. 1:26-27]… were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored than the body in diseases.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“[The men] have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more shame than men.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“And sundry other books of the philosophers one may see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature; but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this would be worse than any punishment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way.” Augustine, Confessions 3:8:15 (A.D. 400).

“[Christians] abhor all unlawful mixtures, and that which is practiced by some contrary to nature, as wicked and impious.” Apostolic Constitutions 6:11 (A.D. 400).

Source: scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html

As you can see the Early Church Fathers consider same sex behavior as sinful. Back then, it was common for older men to lay with young boys as young as 12.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here are some quotes from Early Church Documents and Early Church Fathers concerning the issue of homosexuals.

“You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born.” Didache 2:2 (A.D. 90).

“[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And any one who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods.” Justin Martyr, First Apology 27 (A.D. 151).

“All honor to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was, who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians the mystery of the mother of the gods . . . condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks, and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Scythians.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[According to Greek myth] Baubo [a female native of Elusis] having received [the goddess] Demeter hospitably, reached to her a refreshing draught; and on her refusing it, not having any inclination to drink (for she was very sad), and Baubo having become annoyed, thinking herself slighted, uncovered her shame, and exhibited her nudity to the goddess. Demeter is delighted with the sight–pleased, I repeat, at the spectacle. These are the secret mysteries of the Athenians; these Orpheus records.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these–so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

“[God forbid the Jews to eat certain foods for symbolic reasons:] For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean, because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the Law mean when it…forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice…Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women.” Novatian, The Jewish Foods 3 (A.D. 250).

"[T]urn your looks to the abominations, not less to be deplored, of another kind of spectacle…Men are emasculated, and all the pride and vigor of their sex is effeminated in the disgrace of their enervated body; and he is more pleasing there who has most completely broken down the man into the woman. He grows into praise by virtue of his crime; and the more he is degraded, the more skillful he is considered to be. Such a one is looked upon–oh shame!–and looked upon with pleasure…nor is there wanting authority for the enticing abomination…that Jupiter of theirs… " Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:8 (A.D. 253).

“Oh, if placed on that lofty watch-tower, you could gaze into the secret places–if you could open the closed doors of sleeping chambers and recall their dark recesses to the perception of sight–you would behold things done by immodest persons which no chaste eye could look upon; you would see what even to see is a crime; you would see what people embruted with the madness of vice deny that they have done, and yet hasten to do–men with frenzied lusts rushing upon men, doing things which afford no gratification even to those who do them.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:9 (A.D. 253).

Thank you for your research, it is much appreciated. There is much that they are addressing here which consists of both heterosexual and homosexual sexual sins. There is an agreement that both heterosexual and homosexual sex outside of marriage is sin.

Do you think that what these men wrote is applicable to committed God fearing Christian homosexuals that have entered into the covenant of marriage? Do you think Christian homosexuals that are married in the church are condemned through these writings? I see a big difference between all sexual immorality and sex within the context of marriage. I also see a related issue with the Catholic position of not allowing Priests, nuns, bishops, etc to marry. For Catholic clery and commited Christian homosexuals, isn’t it better to marry for those who cannot exercise self control, than to commit sexual sins outside of marriage? Is it a stretch to apply what Paul wrote in the case of Catholiic clergy and Christian homosexuals?

To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. - 1 Cor 7

Here’s the overall eternal picture dear brother and sisters in Christ:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Gal 3:28

 

[Publisher]

“He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers.” Basil the Great, Letters 217:62 (A.D. 367).

“If you [O, monk] are young in either body or mind, shun the companionship of other young men and avoid them as you would a flame. For through them the enemy has kindled the desires of many and then handed them over to eternal fire, hurling them into the vile pit of the five cities under the pretense of spiritual love. At meals take a seat far from other young men. In lying down to sleep let not their clothes be near yours, but rather have an old man between you. When a young man converses with you, or sings psalms facing you, answer him with eyes cast down, lest perhaps by gazing at his face you receive a seed of desire sown by the enemy and reap sheaves of corruption and ruin. Whether in the house or in a place where there is no one to see your actions, be not found in his company under the pretense either of studying the divine oracles or of any other business whatsoever, however necessary.” Basil the Great, The Renunciation of the World (A.D. 373).

“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty…should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced. And if all that was done among them was related, it would be seen that they openly outraged nature, and there was none to restrain them… As for their passion for boys, whom they called their ‘paedica,’ it is not fit to be named.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Titus 5 (A.D. 390]).

“[Certain men in church] come in gazing about at the beauty of women; others curious about the blooming youth of boys. After this, do you not marvel that [lightning] bolts are not launched [from heaven], and all these things are not plucked up from their foundations? For worthy both of thunderbolts and hell are the things that are done; but God, who is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forbears awhile his wrath, calling you to repentance and amendment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 3:3 (A.D. 391).

“All of these affections [in Rom. 1:26-27]… were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored than the body in diseases.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“[The men] have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more shame than men.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“And sundry other books of the philosophers one may see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature; but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this would be worse than any punishment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).

“[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way.” Augustine, Confessions 3:8:15 (A.D. 400).

“[Christians] abhor all unlawful mixtures, and that which is practiced by some contrary to nature, as wicked and impious.” Apostolic Constitutions 6:11 (A.D. 400).

Source: scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html

As you can see the Early Church Fathers consider same sex behavior as sinful. Back then, it was common for older men to lay with young boys as young as 12.

It would appear that the ECF’s agree that pedastry and same sex rape and prostitution is wrong. Those of us who embrace our gay brothers and sisters in our fellowships and who have provided in our meetings the blessings of their relationships agree with the ECF’s…such practices are wrongs as they violate the dignity of others as well as promotes the victimization of those who cannot protect themselves.

The ECF’s seem to agree with modern biblical scholarship that those passages cited in scripture which are used to condemn same sex relationships do not speak of those relationships which find themselves upon mutual love and respect…caring and support…compassion and fidelity. These passages speak of vicitimization, violence, rape, pagan sex rites, both homosexual and heterosexual based rites of paganism in the pagan temples.

The Society of Friends recognize the difference between loving and mutal care and support of same sex couples verses rape and violence one person inflicts upon another of the same sex.

Sexuality is seen as a gift to be shared between two people in mutual love and care not as a tool of coercion and violence.

Each of those Christian bodies that have come to grips with sexuality and has chosen to bless same sex relationships through the covenant of marriage do so with the understanding that sexuality consists of a broad range of variables within a spectrum with the majority of sexually acitve entities falling withing a large bell curve of “normal”. Those that fall outside the bell curve are not deviant but different. Homosexuality is a normal natural expression of sexuality the same as heterosexuality and that moral repsonsibility is required of gay and straight.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It would appear that the ECF’s agree that pedastry and same sex rape and prostitution is wrong. Those of us who embrace our gay brothers and sisters in our fellowships and who have provided in our meetings the blessings of their relationships agree with the ECF’s…such practices are wrongs as they violate the dignity of others as well as promotes the victimization of those who cannot protect themselves.

The ECF’s seem to agree with modern biblical scholarship that those passages cited in scripture which are used to condemn same sex relationships do not speak of those relationships which find themselves upon mutual love and respect…caring and support…compassion and fidelity. These passages speak of vicitimization, violence, rape, pagan sex rites, both homosexual and heterosexual based rites of paganism in the pagan temples.

The Society of Friends recognize the difference between loving and mutal care and support of same sex couples verses rape and violence one person inflicts upon another of the same sex.

Sexuality is seen as a gift to be shared between two people in mutual love and care not as a tool of coercion and violence.

Each of those Christian bodies that have come to grips with sexuality and has chosen to bless same sex relationships through the covenant of marriage do so with the understanding that sexuality consists of a broad range of variables within a spectrum with the majority of sexually acitve entities falling withing a large bell curve of “normal”. Those that fall outside the bell curve are not deviant but different. Homosexuality is a normal natural expression of sexuality the same as heterosexuality and that moral repsonsibility is required of gay and straight.

Thank you for sharing the other position in a very gracious and truthful manner.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thank you for your research, it is much appreciated. There is much that they are addressing here which consists of both heterosexual and homosexual sexual sins. There is an agreement that both heterosexual and homosexual sex outside of marriage is sin.

Do you think that what these men wrote is applicable to committed God fearing Christian homosexuals that have entered into the covenant of marriage? Do you think Christian homosexuals that are married in the church are condemned through these writings? I see a big difference between all sexual immorality and sex within the context of marriage. I also see a related issue with the Catholic position of not allowing Priests, nuns, bishops, etc to marry. For Catholic clery and commited Christian homosexuals, isn’t it better to marry for those who cannot exercise self control, than to commit sexual sins outside of marriage? Is it a stretch to apply what Paul wrote in the case of Catholiic clergy and Christian homosexuals?

It apply to all who are called Christians and adhere the Christian faith that they ought to abstain from such immoral behavior.

The ECF and the teachings of the CC remains unchanged concerning homosexual behavior. The sin is overwhelming condemned. Always give by this thinking, “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”

Traditional Christian moral thinking condemns homosexual activity. The liberals accepts homosexual behavior as no different than heterosexual and should be accepted. That is unacceptible in God’s eye. For God created us, “Male and Female.” Union between gays does not promote life, it is Anti-Life. Compared to union between a man and woman, life is pro-created. Homosexual behavior is not natural.

Consider homosexual men, they have sex and have anal sex. The anus is not meant for pleasure. It is use and design by God for removing waste. Anal sex increase the chances of getted infected.

It is true, heterosexual also practice anal sex but the CC also condemned anal sex in all levels. Homosexual individuals should remain pure and chaste and abstain from sex PERIOD, and we should pray for their conversion to a more heterosexual lifestyle.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

I’m glad someone finally brought up Leviticus! So, how do we understand the Levitical Law. I think there are over 600 of them in the Bible, but I’m not sure. I love crab, shrimp, and lobster… so I am very interested to hear the Catholic postion on the Levitical Law… on who it was intended for, and for what reason, and how all the 600+ laws apply to us a Christians. Please share the Catholic position of the Levitical Law as applicable to all Christians, especially Catholic Christians.

I think the official catholic position is that certain laws such as eating kosher were said to no longer apply in the NT because He “fulfilled the law”. Others such as the one I referenced and not worshipping idols, still apply.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

How many Catholics and Protestants have commited adultery according to Jesus?

No one is advocating for the re-definition of “adultery” to excuse the conduct. Adultery is sin and adulterers know this.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. - Jesus

OK. The same can be said about lusting after someone of the same gender. It’s clearly something that the Church has stood against from the early days. To say that homosexual marriage should be allowed because adultery is common makes no sense whatsoever. Should we allow abortion because people have sex outside of marriate too? How is this not the same rationale?

Peace,
Robert

 

[2nd_Adam]

The challenge is for those Christians who are born homosexuals and are not able to change. Are Christian homosexuals called to a life of celibacy? Or should Christian homosexuals who are committed to monogamous relationship marry in a Christian Church… a live out a married Christian life to the glory of God as a Christian couple. The issue is much deeper than you think since same sex marriage is common in other parts of the world, and America will have more and more states that will recognize same sex marriage. I really see this as a comparison with the Catholic Church prohibiting clergy and nuns to marry. Would there be less sexual sins in the Catholic clergy if they were allowed to marry? I think if committed Christians who are unable to change their sexual orientation, and do not have the gift of celibacy, maybe they should marry. Christian churches perform same sex marriage throughout the world. The sexual comment about males is really unnecessary since it does not apply to Lesbian Christians.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It’s really about same sex marriage between Christians. As you know, churches vary on their answer on this issue. I would not assess the purity, lack of purity, or apostasy on a particular church or denomination’s stated view on same sex marriage. When Christians are able listen to other Christians who stand on the opposite position, we can learn as a family and a body of Christ. I used to be a staunch Fundamentalist with a typical view on homosexuality until God enabled me to listen to other Christians coming from another perspective. Heck, I would not have considered Catholics my brothers and sisters in Christ a few years ago. But my views have changes over the years on many issues. Same sex marriage between Christians or even non-Christians is not that clear since Scripture proof is not really there. For Catholics, all you have to do is adhere to the Magestrieum’s position on same sex marriage and it ends there.

What I cannot get over, is not the Magisterium (some of the use of texts in the 1986 Letter on the Pastoral Care of the Homosexual Person is not convincing), but what is said in the NT, about the body of the believer.​

Outside the Bible, a piece of advice I find very helpful is “Do nothing that you cannot offer to God” - it does not solve all problems, by any means, but it is a good test of whether one is acting in a Christian manner or not. One cannot offer the purpose of committing fraud or murder or perjury or rape or witchcraft to Christ - can one offer homosexual activity ?

Life in Christ is not a mere ethical code - it should reflect the transforming presence of Christ in His world, through the People He has won for Himself: their bodies do not belong to them - but to Him. So do their minds; and all that called theirs. Does homosexual behaviour reflect the Presence of Christ ? Those are two questions that Christians who try to show that homosexual activity is worthy of Christians need to answer.

So whether there is a “gay gene”, or whether homosexuality is a widely represented behaviour among animals, or what exactly malakos & arsenokoites in Paul’s letter may mean, or the precise meaning of Leviticus 18.22 & 20.13, or what the sin of Sodom is, are, while not unimportant, nonetheless all secondary issues: the primary issue, AFAICS, is whether a Christian with a homosexual orientation can obey & love & serve & honour God by acting in a homosexual manner.

Ultimately, people have to decide for themselves what the answers to such questions are; for no onlooker can know what their relation is to Christ - even so, the choices people make have social results, because man is meant to live with others, & not be alone. Which is where problems such as the scape-goating of people for their choices can arise.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m glad someone finally brought up Leviticus! So, how do we understand the Levitical Law. I think there are over 600 of them in the Bible, but I’m not sure. I love crab, shrimp, and lobster… so I am very interested to hear the Catholic postion on the Levitical Law… on who it was intended for, and for what reason, and how all the 600+ laws apply to us a Christians. Please share the Catholic position of the Levitical Law as applicable to all Christians, especially Catholic Christians.

There are 613 mitzvoth in the Torah - Leviticus accounts for some of these. The “Holiness Code” is a section within Leviticus; and it is the the one that contains - among other things - the list of abominations; what are in effect taboo actions, states, foods, and so forth. This is the section that contains chapters 18 and 20.​

The whole Torah is summed up in the commands

• to love God
• to love our neighbour as we love ourselves

If I were you, I would find a good commentary on Leviticus. That would answer most of your questions - though perhaps not the one about applicability, so here is my guess: Christians have a much shorter set of mitzvoth, those given by Jesus - they are not more “permissive” but far stricter, to judge from Matthew 5. This suggests that the prohibitions in Lev. 18.22 & 20.13 are made stricter, and not less strict. So the liberty of the Christian has, if possible, even less room for homosexual acts than the mitzvoth in the Torah allowed. AFAICS.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Let’s put this in context. We know what sin is as revealed in the Word of God. Sexual immorality, fornication, adultery of the heart are examples of sexual sins. We know sex outside of marriage is sin, regardless of being heterosexual or homosexual sex. Therefore, should Christian homosexuals in a committed loving monogamous relationship marry?

Stop right there - if it is not a Christian way of living, it cannot be truly loving. Sinning is not a way of loving God.​

Some churches will say yes, and some will say no. Therefore, the debate is about same sex marriage as being allowed by God or not. Think about the issues in our generation. For some states, same sex marriage is legal, and some churches conduct same sex marriages. In other countries, same sex marriage is more accepted in the church and in society in general. So, are Christian couples of the same sex who are married in perpetual sin, or does God bless their marriage? We all agree that Christians are called to a life of holiness. Lordship in progression is a mark of a true Christian. This is not about antinomianism (cheap grace, Christianity without obedience). Not all heterosexual sex is sin; therefore, the question is about homosexual sex within the context of marriage… some churches do not consider this to be sin.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here are some quotes from Early Church Documents and Early Church Fathers concerning the issue of homosexuals

…

“It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these–so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

“[God forbid the Jews to eat certain foods for symbolic reasons:] For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean, because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the Law mean when it…forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice…Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women.” Novatian, The Jewish Foods 3 (A.D. 250).

“[T]urn your looks to the abominations, not less to be deplored, of another kind of spectacle…Men are emasculated, and all the pride and vigor of their sex is effeminated in the disgrace of their enervated body; and he is more pleasing there who has most completely broken down the man into the woman. He grows into praise by virtue of his crime; and the more he is degraded, the more skillful he is considered to be. Such a one is looked upon–oh shame!–and looked upon with pleasure…nor is there wanting authority for the enticing abomination…that Jupiter of theirs [is] not more supreme in dominion than in vice, inflamed with earthly love in the midst of his own thunders…now breaking forth by the help of birds to violate the purity of boys. And now put the question: Can he who looks upon such things be healthy-minded or modest? Men imitate the gods whom they adore, and to such miserable beings their crimes become their religion.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:8 (A.D. 253).

“Oh, if placed on that lofty watch-tower, you could gaze into the secret places–if you could open the closed doors of sleeping chambers and recall their dark recesses to the perception of sight–you would behold things done by immodest persons which no chaste eye could look upon; you would see what even to see is a crime; you would see what people embruted with the madness of vice deny that they have done, and yet hasten to do–men with frenzied lusts rushing upon men, doing things which afford no gratification even to those who do them.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:9 (A.D. 253).

You could also have mentioned Arnobius of Sicca (c. 300).​

Book 5.22:

• 1. I do not think it necessary here also with many words to go through each part, and show how many base and unseemly things there are 498in each particular. For what mortal is there, with but little sense even of what becomes a man, who does not himself see clearly the character of all these things, how wicked they are, how vile, and what disgrace is brought upon the gods by the very ceremonies of their mysteries, and by the unseemly origin of their rites? Jupiter, it is said, lusted after Ceres. Why, I ask, has Jupiter deserved so ill of you, that there is no kind of disgrace, no infamous adultery, which you do not heap upon his head, as if on some vile and worthless person? Leda was unfaithful to her nuptial vow; Jupiter is said to be the cause of the fault. Danae could not keep her virginity; the theft is said to have been Jupiter’s. Europa hastened to the name of woman; he is again declared to have been the assailant of her chastity. Alcmena, Electra, Latona, Laodamia, a thousand other virgins, and a thousand matrons, and with them the boy Catamitus, were robbed of their honour and chastity.
• [http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xii.iii.v.xxii.html (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.xii.iii.v.xxii.html)?

“Catamitus” = Ganymede, who was taken by Zeus (who had put on the form of an eagle) to Olympus to be his cup-bearer (which involved what is mentioned here.)

There is a lot in Athenaeus of Naucratis (c.230) about similar goings-on - but Athenaeus was not a Christian:

• [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/athenaeus13.html (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/athenaeus13.html)