Discuss: Married Sexuality

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My understanding is that the point is to keep it as a unitive ritual. Just like the mass is a ritual that reminds us of our unity with God and each other.

We need ritual as frequent reminders of spiritual truths. Sex everyday is a ritual that is also a reminder of our unity.
 
For me, it comes down to the fact that the husband is head of household. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think he should not consider the wifes perspective as very important.

I think that what sometimes happens is that the husband will decide that they need to use NFP for financial reasons but the wifes desire for another baby ends up trumping his fears. I don’t think that is good… because God is going to judge him as head of household for not having provided sufficiently.
 
Also, as a PP pointed out, sex can be an occasion of sin (even within marriage) – it’s quite possible to objectify one’s spouse, treat them in an unloving way, or deliberately entertain sinful thoughts during the marriage act. Whether that is more likely with frequent intercourse, I don’t know. But if an instance of intercourse is an occasion of sin for one or both spouses, it isn’t truly unitive.
If this is problem that it makes sense to enter into an agreed upon period of abstinence (i.e. Lent, or some couples like to use the Old Testament method that abstained during the beginning of the cycle) However, if you want to get good at doing something the right way you have to practice.
 
This assumes that all married sex is unitive. If sex begins to feel like a job, I don’t really see how it’s unitive. You get the physical enjoyment (maybe), but if one or both spouses are thinking “oh geez, I don’t have time for this, I need to put a load of laundry in the washer/I am so tired/I need to sleep,” then I don’t see much emotional benefit arising from that.
Just like you don’t always have an obvious emotional benefit from going to Mass, you also might not have an obvious emotional benefit from sex. That doesn’t mean the ritual isn’t important as a whole to the marriage.
 
My understanding is that the point is to keep it as a unitive ritual. Just like the mass is a ritual that reminds us of our unity with God and each other.

We need ritual as frequent reminders of spiritual truths. Sex everyday is a ritual that is also a reminder of our unity.
Church teaching re: reception of communion/attending mass:

*The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season.224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. *

Where does the Church encourage married couples to have sex daily?
 
The assumption is that every evening will lead to sex.
Did I read correctly that you have 5 children and you assume you will have sex every night? My goodness, we live in parallel universes!
 
Did I read correctly that you have 5 children and you assume you will have sex every night? My goodness, we live in parallel universes!
Well, how did she get the 5 kids?

I personally would rather have great sex a couple times a week, than dull sex everyday. If I’m going to risk the horrible pain of childbirth, and deal with a screaming pooping child, I better have an orgasm. 😛 At least I can say it worth it. Lol.
 
I can speak from experience of the wax and wane of a marriage’s sex life. My husband and I have what would be considered a traditional household. he is the head of our home, and as ou said…the final say so in everything. That doesnt mean he doesnt take me into consideration though. he ALWAYS asks for my opinions and thoughts on something before deciding. and then we will fast together–or sometimes he will fast on his own, go to adoration, etc and prayerfully discren God’s will for our family. Knowing that my husband puts his love for our family and his trust in God’s plan for us gives me the peace I need to not second guess or question his authority over me or our children. That being said…
every couple’s sexual appetite is different. the more children we have had it seems it becomes harder to fit in love making. This doesnt mean we don’t “unite” in SOME way. We may go a week or more without lovemaking, but we may have cuddled, spoke lovingly togther, prayed together, or maybe watched a movie togther. We use NFP and our belief in being open to children is the foundation of our marriage, and the very nature of NFP “forces” us to remain united. 😉 every month we must question whether or not we are ready for another child emotionally, financially etc. I find this keeps us very intune with eachother. and the self control we must use if we are abstaining actually makes our appetite for eachother grow stronger…if we abstain 7-10 days or whatever it may be for that cycle, by the 11th day when I can have my hubby again it can be explosive physically and/or emotionally for both of us.Id take that over a mundane 7 days a week any day. Its a beautiful thing. 👍
 
the question isnt a subjective one-- whether a person would “rather” have great sex, mundane sex, lotsa sex, less sex.

the question, violet, is whether your premise is correct and whether your further assertions are correct.

they are not correct.

in reading Humanae Vitae, there is absolutely zero mention of the expectaation of daily intercourse. in fact, the opposite is implied strongly. read:
10… **With regard to man’s innate drives and emotions, responsible parenthood means that man’s reason and will must exert control over them. **With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
  1. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one’s partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife.
21….For if with the aid of reason and of free will they are to control their natural drives, there can be no doubt at all of the need for self-denial. Only then will the expression of love, essential to married life, conform to right order. This is especially clear in the practice of periodic continence. Self-discipline of this kind is a shining witness to the chastity of husband and wife and, far from being a hindrance to their love of one another, transforms it by giving it a more truly human character. And if this self-discipline does demand that they persevere in their purpose and efforts, it has at the same time the salutary effect of enabling husband and wife to develop to their personalities and to be enriched with spiritual blessings. For it brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers.
furthermore, there is absolutely NO mention anywhere that the husband has the final say in whether or not to have more children.

that’s NO mention, NO insinuation,NO implication anywhere in either Humanae Vitae nor in the catechism. in fact, the directive is always for the “couple” to prayerfully discern. if the couple is not of like mind, they are not to defer to one spouse (in your assertion the husband) instead, they are to continue to pray until they are like-minded and discern in unity.

subjectively: i love my husband. our marital embrace is awesome. we have 10 kids. we are happy together, best friends and deepest confidants. he is my vocation. i am his. in light of that, i am NEVER worried that he feels rejceted if i tell him my ‘availablility’ and he is NEVER worried when he tells me his (or lack of it). in fact, we are much more concerned that neither of us feel pressured by the other’s potential ardor. subjectively, i deeply appreciate his gift of self, and he mine. but we never want to take advantage of ach other’s free and full gift.

we confidently, and without self-pity or unnecessary sense of rejection, WAIT for the other to be ready.

we WAIT because we love each other. THAT (according to Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae) is a greater gift of self.

and to address the assertion that unity, not pleasure is intended, the catechism says this:
Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment.
violet, let the mind of the Church direct your thinking on this. there is NO reason to try and outdo the Church on moral teaching.
 
This discussion reminds me of the movie “Annie Hall.” Now, I realize that Woody Allen is a sick and twisted pervert, and this movie is full of sinning, obviously, but there’s a scene where Annie Hall and Woody’s character Alvy (it’s really just him, a New York neurotic Jew) are both talking to their psychiatrists about their sex life.

Each psychiatrist asks, “Do you have sex often?”

Annie says, “Constantly!”

Alvy says, “Hardly ever!”

Then they both say at the same time, “Three times a week!”

that seems like a fairly common occurrence. The male thinks that 3 x a week is “hardly ever,” and the female thinks it’s “constantly.” I know in my case, my husband would be great with every night, I think 3 x a week is too much. But I have felt overwhelmed by physical demands for years when the kids were young, and right or wrong, sex felt like just one more demand at the end of a long day.
 
Well, I like the idea but I think that 3 to 4 times a week is better. My dh and I used to engage in marital relations every night but when I read this in the catechism I decided we needed to abstain some nights.

From the catechism

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
Code:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
To the pp who said that they don’t have sex anymore and they are both sterile. It doesn’t matter if you cannot conceive you still need to have relations for the good of your marriage. Also you still must have the possibility of procreation along with the unitive aspect.
 
subjectively: i love my husband. our marital embrace is awesome. we have 10 kids. we are happy together, best friends and deepest confidants. he is my vocation. i am his. in light of that, i am NEVER worried that he feels rejceted if i tell him my ‘availablility’ and he is NEVER worried when he tells me his (or lack of it).
This sounds nice…but I don’t know that it is typical.

My approach to marriage and sex is to 1. avoid typical pitfalls 2. create a ritual that reminds us of our unity.
 
Well, I like the idea but I think that 3 to 4 times a week is better. My dh and I used to engage in marital relations every night but when I read this in the catechism I decided we needed to abstain some nights.
Moderation is very subjective, but I do find that we average 3 or 4x a week. It is usually because of a cranky child who doesn’t sleep, illness, or plain old exhaustion. If our goal wasn’t every night our average might be even worse. 🙂
 
This discussion reminds me of the movie “Annie Hall.” Now, I realize that Woody Allen is a sick and twisted pervert, and this movie is full of sinning, obviously, but there’s a scene where Annie Hall and Woody’s character Alvy (it’s really just him, a New York neurotic Jew) are both talking to their psychiatrists about their sex life.

Each psychiatrist asks, “Do you have sex often?”

Annie says, “Constantly!”

Alvy says, “Hardly ever!”

Then they both say at the same time, “Three times a week!”

that seems like a fairly common occurrence. The male thinks that 3 x a week is “hardly ever,” and the female thinks it’s “constantly.” I know in my case, my husband would be great with every night, I think 3 x a week is too much. But I have felt overwhelmed by physical demands for years when the kids were young, and right or wrong, sex felt like just one more demand at the end of a long day.
 
This sounds nice…but I don’t know that it is typical.
My approach to marriage and sex is to 1. avoid typical pitfalls 2. create a ritual that reminds us of our unity.
whether or not my subjective expereince is typical isnt the point. nor is it relevant what your particular approach is. the Church has directed us.

again i assert: there is no call to outdo the Church’s teaching on moral married sexuality.
 
21….For if with the aid of reason and of free will they are to control their natural drives, there can be no doubt at all of the need for self-denial. Only then will the expression of love, essential to married life, conform to right order. This is especially clear in the practice of periodic continence. Self-discipline of this kind is a shining witness to the chastity of husband and wife and, far from being a hindrance to their love of one another, transforms it by giving it a more truly human character. And if this self-discipline does demand that they persevere in their purpose and efforts, it has at the same time the salutary effect of enabling husband and wife to develop to their personalities and to be enriched with spiritual blessings. For it brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers.
I’ve never read this before, but that is more or less what I was trying to say (much less eloquently though lol). I’m glad it’s supported in Humanae Vitae.
 
I’ve never read this before, but that is more or less what I was trying to say (much less eloquently though lol). I’m glad it’s supported in Humanae Vitae.
What does this mean? I read it but I don’t understand what it is saying.:confused:
 
it’s saying that when each person denies himself/herself instead of demanding from the other, then will the expression of love be in the right order. then this section of Humanae Vitae asserts the beauty and fruits and good of such self-sacrifice:
each person develops his/her own personality
each person receives spiritual blessings
tranquility
peace
help in problem solving
thoughtfulness
loving consideration of the other
repellance of self love
arrouses charity
arrouses sense of responsibility
"… And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers. "

sexual self-control for the good of the other, while still allowed to seek to give and receive pleasure when intimacy does happen. this pretty much brings about all the things in marriage that spouses truly seek.
 
This is my understanding of the duties of the marriage vocation.

We are to be as united as it is possible to be, and the key to unity is sex. Therefore, we are to have sex as much as is reasonably possible.
My first response to your post is to laugh and think “i must show this to my wife”. If you are a man and have been married for any time whatsoever, odds are you’d have the same reaction.

My second reaction is to think this is a *very unhealthy *view of marital “duties”.

First, this expection puts an unfair burden on the wife to satisfy the needs of the husband. It is very, very tilted in the man’s favor. (and yes, i’m a man.) Very few women would find this agreeable, whereas most men would probably “give it a go”.

Second, I don’t think having sex every night will create the intamacy you think it will. It is more likely to become routine, burdensome, and possibly boring. Moderation my friend is good.

Thirdly, sometimes (during that time) why would you want to?

Your idea sounds great to me, as a man, but I don’t think it would be spiritually beneficial. In my experience, it has been a challenge, a very Godly challenge, to contain my own wants and desires for that of my wife. Practicing a degree of abstinance is very healthy. What does Paul say? “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman” (1 Cor 7).

What better way to show your wife that you love her than to put her first? A good way to show this self-sacrifice is by waiting patiently until such a time as she’s interested, despite your own personal wants. Isn’t this the gospel?
 
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