HailMary;2592746]You know the answer to that, if you claim
Huh? Where is this explicitedly taught?They are in the bible, some explicit (her immaculate conception)
Even Karl Keating admits this is not taught in scripture.and other implicit (her assumption),
i know these doctrines very well and have studied them. i have read a lot of Armstrongs and others works. What i have found is that a lot of catholic apologist who defend this either fail to keep the context of the scripture intact or read into them what is not there.they’ve been presented to you, its your choice if you are willing to roll-up your sleeves and dig into them a little further, instead of the 5 minute skim over a website.
Rubbish - if I ask you to pray for me to God, as you are in fact commanded to do so in Scripture by Christ and St Paul, and you do so, then YOU are mediating and advocating on my behalf. Just as Moses was for the people of Israel! If God tolerates no mediators then why did He use Moses and not tell the people of Israel to ONLY approach Him directly?The scriptures tell us that there is only one mediator between God and man-- the man Christ Jesus. This leaves no room for another. Not even Mary.
We have loads of prayers both to Mary and the other deceased saints from the earliest centuries - written on the very walls of the catacombs.Not so. We have no such teachings in the church for centuries.
The fact that she is compared to the Ark of the Covenant. If you knew your OT the ark was pure, spotless, undefined,Huh? Where is this explicitedly taught?
If everyone is a mediator why then did Paul say that Jesus alone is the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man then?LilyM;2592780]Rubbish - if I ask you to pray for me to God, as you are in fact commanded to do so in Scripture by Christ and St Paul, and you do so, then YOU are mediating and advocating on my behalf. Just as Moses was for the people of Israel!
Moses was the “mediator” between God and the people in the sense of giving of the Law. He is not today nor ever was taught even in the OT scriptures a spiritual mediator for the Jews or anyone else. The same is true in NT. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that demonstates that people are to pray to Moses who will pray to God for them.If God tolerates no mediators then why did He use Moses and not tell the people of Israel to ONLY approach Him directly?
There are a number of problems with this. Were there any offical proclaimations by the church in the first 3 centuries that christians were to pray to saints or Mary?We have loads of prayers both to Mary and the other deceased saints from the earliest centuries - written on the very walls of the catacombs.
Venerated by whom? Did the church itself give offical endorsement for this practice?We have records from AD 150 of the veneration of the relics of the martyred Polycarp, which were considered ‘more precious than gold’. The account of his martyrdom was written at the time - the AD 150s - so we do know that such absolutely WAS the practice of the early Church.
Read what?I’m certain I’ve said all of this before, more than once, so don’t tell us how well you read - clearly you can’t, don’t or won’t when what you read disagrees with you.
Who in the Scriptures specifically says this? Chapter and verse please?The fact that she is compared to the Ark of the Covenant. If you knew your OT the ark was pure, spotless, undefined,
Again your church teaches that which is not found in scripture.Yes, a mediator between US and JESUS, not US and the FATHER.
Again your church teaches that which is not found in scripture.
Do you really want to know it? Will you read it all?If everyone is a mediator why then did Paul say that Jesus alone is the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man then?
That is correct. We know for example that the scriptures do not teach such things. This is not an apostolic teaching but the teaching of men which is a false teaching which leads people astray from praying to the true God. Jesus alone is our high priest and intercedes for us before the Father. This is what the NT clearly teaches.So you don’t believe that other can pray to Jesus for you? Because if Mary can’t pray to Jesus for you, the other conclusion is nobody can.
Paul wrote that because Jesus is the only one who could die on the Cross, to take away our sins and give us salvation.If everyone is a mediator why then did Paul say that Jesus alone is the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man then?
Did you even read?Who in the Scriptures specifically says this? Chapter and verse please?
You poor soul. You really believe this? How sad.HailMary;:
That is correct. We know for example that the scriptures do not teach such things. This is not an apostolic teaching but the teaching of men which is a false teaching which leads people astray from praying to the true God. Jesus alone is our high priest and intercedes for us before the Father. This is what the NT clearly teaches.So you don’t believe that others can pray to Jesus for you?
What is sad is that you have no grounds to believe what you believe about praying to saints as being true. The scriptures do not teach such a thing and your church has no grounds either to teach such a thing. It is a fantasy for the mere fact that the apostles who had access to know such things never taught it.HailMary;2596401]You poor soul. You really believe this? How sad.
I have no problem asking another Christian in this world to pray for me. That is biblical and commanded by scripture. What is not is to pray to some created creature that is no longer part of this world. That is something no Christian should do. If you are in Christ you have a direct line to Him. You don;t need to appeal to anyone else in the spirit world.What do you say to others when they ask for your to pray for them? Just curious.
What is not is to pray to some created creature that is no longer part of this world. That is something no Christian should do.
Indeed, the saints, the angels, and espeically Mary are no longer part of this word because this world is passing and one day will be renewed.
Who is more alive, you are St. Paul? You or the Blessed Virgin Mary?
Answer me this.
Obviously, you don’t know the Catholic position (i.e. why it is absolutelly biblical) and have a cherry-pick attitude towards Scripture. Have you ever heard a Catholic explanation to the “One Mediator” issue for instance?What is sad is that you have no grounds to believe what you believe about praying to saints as being true. The scriptures do not teach such a thing and your church has no grounds either to teach such a thing. It is a fantasy for the mere fact that the apostles who had access to know such things never taught it.
If you think i’m wrong about this, then show me in scripture another “mediator” like Jesus Who is no longer physically present with us that we are to pray to?Your interpretation of the “Mediator” issue is completely against the Scriptures, Justasking. I know you can claim the same about me, but that doesn’t make your position right.
Gladly. Wait a second.If you think i’m wrong about this, then show me in scripture another “mediator” like Jesus Who is no longer physically present with us that we are to pray to?
Even Paul when he was about to die did not exhort believers to pary to him after he had died. Nor did Peter, James or John. If anyone would be qualified to pray to it would be them and yet they never teach such a thing.
Please show me from the NT **]someone praying directly **]to a saint in heaven specifically for something.zemi;2596450]Obviously, you don’t know the Catholic position (i.e. why it is absolutelly biblical) and have a cherry-pick attitude towards Scripture.
No. Can you explain it?Have you ever heard a Catholic explanation to the “One Mediator” issue for instance?
Rev 8:3-4If you think i’m wrong about this, then show me in scripture another “mediator” like Jesus Who is no longer physically present with us that we are to pray to?
Even Paul when he was about to die did not exhort believers to pary to him after he had died. Nor did Peter, James or John. If anyone would be qualified to pray to it would be them and yet they never teach such a thing.
Angels don’t even have a “physical” presence, so I’m guessing in your theology they can’t pray for anyone either!And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.