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MariaG
Guest
Yes, sadly this is true. Instead of admitting that they disagree with with the intepretation, they continue to insist that it is unbiblical.
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zemi
Guest
Justasking,
so where do you say is Lazarus in Lk 16?
a.) Heaven
b.) Hell
c.) Purgatory
D)
d.) Limbo (
)
e.) Otherconfused: )
so where do you say is Lazarus in Lk 16?
a.) Heaven
b.) Hell
c.) Purgatory
D)d.) Limbo (
)e.) Other
confused: )
L
LilyM
Guest
Who says there can’t be mediators between us and Jesus though? This, again, is EXACTLY what you’re doing when you’re praying for someone else - mediating between them and Jesus. You’re bringing their needs to Him.
Wrong. Deuteronomy 5:25 and 27 ‘if we [the people of Israel gathered before Sinai] hear the voice of the LORD any more we shall die … Go closer, you [Moses], and hear all that the LORD, our God, will say, and then tell us …’
So they ABSOLUTELY and in so many words asked (prayed) Moses to mediate for them (speak to and commune with God on their behalf and relay His words and wishes to them). Not just the Ten Commandments or other law - he was the one who would *always *go into the tent of the Lord’s presence and speak for everyone else.
And he did more - he pleaded successfully with God for them after the Golden Calf epiosode (Exodus 32:10-14). More still, he seems to have vicariously atoned for their sin as Christ did for ours - Exodus 32:30 ‘I wll go up to the LORD, perhaps I may be able to make atonement for your sin’.
There are a number of problems with this. Were there any offical proclaimations by the church in the first 3 centuries that christians were to pray to saints or Mary?
I’m referring to prayers written on the walls of what were their churches in the catacombs, where they gathered as a community and celebrated Mass together. You think anything could be written hundreds of times all over the walls of your church if it didn’t sit right with your pastor and those in authority over him? Would it be left up there if it wasn’t? Of course these prayers were approved.
How much more of an endorsement can you get then having the prayers and images of the saints written all over the walls of the catacombs and left there for all the worshippers to see, and us still to see today? Venerated by every person who saw the images and read the prayers up there, from the early Popes on down.
Read what?
Hardly a thing I’ve written for starters. Very insulting.
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Nordar
Guest
I would like to ask a serious question, I am really curious why does everyone so patiently and kindly continue to answer this person?
I am at a loss, I keep following this thread, he quite obviously has no intention of hearing anything anyone has to say. It appears that he does not even read anything anyone says, He just continues to redundantly repeat the same thing. “It is unbiblical”. even when proven otherwise.
His whole issue comes down to that he quite simply does not like Our interpretation of The Bible V his Interpretation. So because of that HE has decided Our interpretation is unbiblical.
This thread could go on forever because he will just continue to say :it is unbiblical: no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone shows to the contrary.
I am at a loss, I keep following this thread, he quite obviously has no intention of hearing anything anyone has to say. It appears that he does not even read anything anyone says, He just continues to redundantly repeat the same thing. “It is unbiblical”. even when proven otherwise.
His whole issue comes down to that he quite simply does not like Our interpretation of The Bible V his Interpretation. So because of that HE has decided Our interpretation is unbiblical.
This thread could go on forever because he will just continue to say :it is unbiblical: no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone shows to the contrary.
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zemi
Guest
Even the sower in the parable was planting the seeds everywhere. Even among the rocksI would like to ask a serious question, I am really curious why does everyone so patiently and kindly continue to answer this person?
I am at a loss, I keep following this thread, he quite obviously has no intention of hearing anything anyone has to say. It appears that he does not even read anything anyone says, He just continues to redundantly repeat the same thing. “It is unbiblical”. even when proven otherwise.
His whole issue comes down to that he quite simply does not like Our interpretation of The Bible V his Interpretation. So because of that HE has decided Our interpretation is unbiblical.
This thread could go on forever because he will just continue to say :it is unbiblical: no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone shows to the contrary.
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NotWorthy
Guest
*Love one another, as I have loved you.I would like to ask a serious question, I am really curious why does everyone so patiently and kindly continue to answer this person?
I am at a loss, I keep following this thread, he quite obviously has no intention of hearing anything anyone has to say. It appears that he does not even read anything anyone says, He just continues to redundantly repeat the same thing. “It is unbiblical”. even when proven otherwise.
His whole issue comes down to that he quite simply does not like Our interpretation of The Bible V his Interpretation. So because of that HE has decided Our interpretation is unbiblical.
This thread could go on forever because he will just continue to say :it is unbiblical: no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone shows to the contrary.
Love your enemies. (not implying anything, here)
They will no you for your love for each other.*
Besides, justasking does have a love for the Lord. We have a love for the Lord. Why can’t we all share that love with one another even if we don’t agree?
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runandsew
Guest
Again, why do you assume that everything that a Christian believes is only found in scripture?
Most Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic worship on Sunday. This is a clear violation of the 4th commandment.
No where is it directly taught in scripture to change the day of worshiping God from Saturday to Sunday, this is a practice that the Church decided on because the Church was given the authority to bind and loose by Jesus himself (Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18-20), and also the fact that Jesus had authority over the sabbath (Matthew 12:8), and Jesus gave his authority to the Church.
OK, now with that said, I think that I have shown that there is at least one Christian practice which is not directly taught in scripture.
Now for the passages that the Catholics use for prayer to Mary and the Saints.
First - Why we honor the Saints:
Romans 2:9-11
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
**
1 Corinthians 11:1**
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:24-27
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
Second - God hears the prayers of the righteous:
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects
Third - Those in Heaven pray with us and present our prayers to God:
Psalm 103:20-21
Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!
Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!
Psalm 148:1-2
Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens, praise him in the heights!
Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!
Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with **the prayers of the saints **from the hand of the angel before God.
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and **the twenty-four elders **fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Fourth - The Saints surround us, and the dead have concerns for the living
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
Luke 16:22-31
The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will
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runandsew
Guest
Also look to Acts 15:
We see that the Church acts on doctrine apart from scripture.
And we see that this decision is guarded from error by the Holy Spirit. (As promised to the Apostles by Jesus)
The church dispensed the Gentiles from being circumcised.
No where in the Bible at that time (Old Testament), or what is recorded in the Gospels of Jesus’ teachings stated that Gentiles didn’t have to be circumcised.
The teaching at the time was that to become a Jew, one needed to be circumcised.
We see in Acts 15 that it was the Apostles and the Elders (Bishops) who met and came to this decision. (Not just the Apostles)
“When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them”
We also see that in the letter that was written by them to be circulated in the Church that the decision was made by them and the Holy Spirit.
“For it has seemed good to **the Holy Spirit and to us **to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”
So when the Church comes to a decision that we honor and pray to the Saints and Mary, even if the practice itself is not directly taught is scripture, the church’s authority to declare this is clearly taught is scripture.
We see that the Church acts on doctrine apart from scripture.
And we see that this decision is guarded from error by the Holy Spirit. (As promised to the Apostles by Jesus)
The church dispensed the Gentiles from being circumcised.
No where in the Bible at that time (Old Testament), or what is recorded in the Gospels of Jesus’ teachings stated that Gentiles didn’t have to be circumcised.
The teaching at the time was that to become a Jew, one needed to be circumcised.
We see in Acts 15 that it was the Apostles and the Elders (Bishops) who met and came to this decision. (Not just the Apostles)
“When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them”
We also see that in the letter that was written by them to be circulated in the Church that the decision was made by them and the Holy Spirit.
“For it has seemed good to **the Holy Spirit and to us **to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”
So when the Church comes to a decision that we honor and pray to the Saints and Mary, even if the practice itself is not directly taught is scripture, the church’s authority to declare this is clearly taught is scripture.
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kaycee
Guest
1 Cor 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. :tsktsk:
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zemi
Guest
- Without taking it into context I could argue that by writing that he (Paul) was also going already beyond what was written. The Apostles didn’t think at the time writing their letters that there will be something like NT Scripture.
- Using that argumentation also the Apostles writing after the letter of Colossians (57/62 AD) would not count as a Scripture as they would be adding to that! A case could be made there would be no Gospels then unless you would like to argue about very early dating of the Gospels! **You would have no Mt, Mk , Lk and John and all the other writings written after that!! **See where taking it out of context leads?!
- As Scott Hanh said: "Yes! We Catholics believe the Scripture really is enough - enough to show us that only the Scripture is not enough"
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kaycee
Guest
That is not logical. Peter already had recognized that what Paul was writing WAS scripture.
2Pe 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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zemi
Guest
- As far as I know we know for sure that 7 of 13 Pauline epistles are not pseudoepigrapha. The rest is not certain. So you could not argue at least for the rest of them.
- What about my second point then?
- You say it is not logical. Will you really accept my every argument that is sound and logical? Because I laid out a couple of those arguments here and however logical they were Justasking only replied “Where do you have X (concrete example) in the Bible?”. So by the very “sola scriptura” criterion your case would definitelly fall on my second argument (to which you didn’t object).
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Church_Militant
Guest
I’ve heard this argument before and it doesn’t hold water because the apostles had a different view in that they frequently quote from sources outside of scripture in places like Acts 20:35, but most especially in the letter of St. Jude, where he freely quotes non canonical traditional Jewish sources.
There is also St. Paul’s reference to a non canonical traditional Jewish source in 2nd Timothy 3:8.
It seems pretty obvious that “exceed what is written” meant something different to the apostles than it does to modern n-Cs.
There is also St. Paul’s reference to a non canonical traditional Jewish source in 2nd Timothy 3:8.
It seems pretty obvious that “exceed what is written” meant something different to the apostles than it does to modern n-Cs.
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savedsinner
Guest
30 A.D. - Jesus is Crucified, Dies and is Resurrected
35 A.D. - Gospel of Matthew
.
40 to 41 A.D. - Book of James
42 A.D. - Gospel of Mark
42 A.D. - Gospel of John (main body of Gospel)
(the prologue/epilogue to Gospel not completed until after 95 A.D.)
50 A.D. - Book of 1Thessalonians
51 A.D. - Book of 2Thessalonians
53 A.D. (Spring) - Book of Galatians
56 A.D. (Late Winter) - Book of 1Corinthians
57 A.D. (Late Summer)- Book of 2Corinthians
57 A.D. (Winter)- Book of Romans
59 A.D. - Book of Luke
61 to 63 A.D. - Books of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon and Hebrews
63 A.D. - Books of Acts, 1Timothy and Titus
63 to 64 A.D. - Books of 1John, 2John and 3John
64 to 65 A.D. - Book of 1Peter
65 to 66 A.D. - Book of 2Peter
66 to 67 A.D. - Book of Jude
67 A.D. - Book of 2Timothy
95 A.D. - Book of Revelation
And where can I find it written in scripture that all of these book I have listed are indeed inspired scripture, and not just the spirtual ramblings of early Christians. Because according to your logic, I should not go beyond what is written.
“Chapter and Verse”
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justasking4
Guest
I’m not just saying i disagree because i don’t like it but he has not shown one verse in scripture of a person living here praying to a saint in heaven for help.
Since this is thread is not specifically about original sin i want to address this briefly from what the scriptures teach. Its found Romans 5:12-17 which tells us how sin came into the world through Adam and because of it all men are sinners including Mary.
Was it not Augustine who formulated this doctrine? If so, i would think he must have used Romans 5:12-17 to support it with scripture.
Read Romans 5:12-17
HERE
You wanted history… there you have it.
Another topic for another time
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justasking4
Guest
Do we have any prayers before the end of the 1st century of people praying to these 2?
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runandsew
Guest
You seem to quote my post the same as you quote scripture.
Do you ever read the whole thing and then take it into context of what was written?
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zemi
Guest
30 A.D. - Jesus is Crucified, Dies and is Resurrected
35 A.D. - Gospel of Matthew
.
40 to 41 A.D. - Book of James
42 A.D. - Gospel of Mark
42 A.D. - Gospel of John (main body of Gospel)
(the prologue/epilogue to Gospel not completed until after 95 A.D.)
50 A.D. - Book of 1Thessalonians
51 A.D. - Book of 2Thessalonians
53 A.D. (Spring) - Book of Galatians
56 A.D. (Late Winter) - Book of 1Corinthians
57 A.D. (Late Summer)- Book of 2Corinthians
57 A.D. (Winter)- Book of Romans
59 A.D. - Book of Luke
61 to 63 A.D. - Books of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon and Hebrews
63 A.D. - Books of Acts, 1Timothy and Titus
63 to 64 A.D. - Books of 1John, 2John and 3John
64 to 65 A.D. - Book of 1Peter
65 to 66 A.D. - Book of 2Peter
66 to 67 A.D. - Book of Jude
67 A.D. - Book of 2Timothy
95 A.D. - Book of Revelation
And where can I find it written in scripture that all of these book I have listed are indeed inspired scripture, and not just the spirtual ramblings of early Christians. Because according to your logic, I should not go beyond what is written.
“Chapter and Verse”
Those are very, very, far fetched dates… I’ve never in my life saw Matthew in 35 AD… That’s absolutelly no scholarly dating…
Can you give a source? I would like to look at that.
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zemi
Guest
Don’t use Augustine for supporting “your” doctrine of Original sin if you reject his teaching on Purgatory. Did the Church establish the doctrine of Original Sin in Augustine’s times? No. And the Purgatory? No. So accept Augustine’s support for both or for none.
I ask you once more - if you talk about history and late developement, tell me, when was the doctrine of Sola Scriptura developed? Can you cite me some Church Fathers teaching it? Please do.
J
justasking4
Guest
I’ll check it out…Justasking4 -
I have started another thread unrelated to this, and I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2596695#post2596695
I wasn’t able to PM you or send an email.
If you have some time, please leave some feedback on the subject. Thanks!
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