Discussing Mary

[justasking4]

This is another aspect of the marian doctrines that I have not seen discussed. Since there are so many statutes of her in churches and people’s homes, how is this not a violation of the commandment below?

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Exodus 20

 

[runandsew]

Do we have any prayers before the end of the 1st century of people praying to these 2?

Well, I am not sure about prayers to these 2 saints, but Hermas wrote before the end of the 1st century.

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

 

[zemi]

This is another aspect of the marian doctrines that I have not seen discussed. Since there are so many statutes of her in churches and people’s homes, how is this not a violation of the commandment below?

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Exodus 20

Thank you. Now the discussion is moving forward.

Yes, we know of that passage very well. It may be thought without the context that Exodus 20:4 forbids the making of statues for religious purposes. Were we to read a little further in that book, we would find that the Lord later commands the making of statues for religious purposes. In Exodus 25:18 he orders that the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with two statues of cherubim. Later still, Solomon, following the will of the Lord, installs giant statues of cherubim in the sanctuary of the Temple in Jerusalem (1 Kgs. 6:23-35). In Exodus 20:4 God isn’t saying that we shouldn’t make statues. He’s saying that we shouldn’t worship them or the false gods they may represent. He is forbidding idolatry. He is not forbidding artwork that draws our hearts and minds closer to him.

A more thorough answer is HERE in the CA library.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

runandsew;2598800]Again, why do you assume that everything that a Christian believes is only found in scripture?

At this point in the discussion i’m trying to demonstrate that many of the aspects of the marian doctrines are not in scripture. I’m aware that catholics believe all kinds of things. So do protestants. The issue is: on what are these beliefs grounded on? Is Mary’s assumption grounded in scripture? Even Karl Keating has admitted its not. Is Mary queen of heaven? Again the scriptures don’t support that conclusion.

Most Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic worship on Sunday. This is a clear violation of the 4th commandment.
No where is it directly taught in scripture to change the day of worshiping God from Saturday to Sunday, this is a practice that the Church decided on because the Church was given the authority to bind and loose by Jesus himself (Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18-20), and also the fact that Jesus had authority over the sabbath (Matthew 12:8), and Jesus gave his authority to the Church.

No doubt the apostles themselves had the authority of Christ to do so. It does not follow that later generations of leaders would have such authority to do so.

 

[justasking4]

Part2

OK, now with that said, I think that I have shown that there is at least one Christian practice which is not directly taught in scripture.

Now for the passages that the Catholics use for prayer to Mary and the Saints.

First - Why we honor the Saints:
Romans 2:9-11
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
**
1 Corinthians 11:1**
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:24-27
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Second - God hears the prayers of the righteous:
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects

Third - Those in Heaven pray with us and present our prayers to God:
Psalm 103:20-21
Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!
Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!

Psalm 148:1-2
Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens, praise him in the heights!
Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with **the prayers of the saints **from the hand of the angel before God.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and **the twenty-four elders **fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Fourth - The Saints surround us, and the dead have concerns for the living
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

Luke 16:22-31
The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will

The main problem here with all these passages that are used is the context. None of these in context teaches anything about praying to those who have died.

 

[zemi]

Justasking,

where is Lazarus in Lk 16?

 

[zemi]

Part2

The main problem here with all these passages that are used is the context. None of these in context teaches anything about praying to those who have died.

Sure. It seems you always know what the context is. It is not enough to say that. Give us your reason why not.

 

[savedsinner]

Those are very, very, far fetched dates… I’ve never in my life saw Matthew in 35 AD… That’s absolutelly no scholarly dating…

Can you give a source? I would like to look at that.

My point was to show that there were many books written after 1 Corinthians. But there are references in the ECF’s that Matthew was originally written in Aramaic/Hebrew, so that could be why this site shows such an early date.

As to the link, here it is.

 

[runandsew]

No doubt the apostles themselves had the authority of Christ to do so. It does not follow that later generations of leaders would have such authority to do so.

Show me where it was the Apostles who changed the date from Saturday to Sunday for Christian worship

It is written in the Didache, but most scholars have chosen to accept 100 to 120, as the date that it was written, which would be after the death of the last apostle.

 

[runandsew]

This is another aspect of the marian doctrines that I have not seen discussed. Since there are so many statutes of her in churches and people’s homes, how is this not a violation of the commandment below?

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exodus 20

Oh, it has been discussed many times in different threads here on the forums.

I think God forgot what he said there, because just 5 chapters later he says:

Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. (Exodus 25:18-20)

God is telling us that he is the only true God, and not to have other gods before him.

Statues of Mary are not idols, and we don’t worship them, or serve them as if they were a god.

In case you didn’t know, Catholics don’t believe Mary to be divine.
She is a created being just like you and me.

If you don’t want a statue of Mary in your home, then don’t place one there.

 

[jabelltulsa]

I would like to ask a serious question, I am really curious why does everyone so patiently and kindly continue to answer this person?

I am at a loss, I keep following this thread, he quite obviously has no intention of hearing anything anyone has to say. It appears that he does not even read anything anyone says, He just continues to redundantly repeat the same thing. “It is unbiblical”. even when proven otherwise.

His whole issue comes down to that he quite simply does not like Our interpretation of The Bible V his Interpretation. So because of that HE has decided Our interpretation is unbiblical.
This thread could go on forever because he will just continue to say :it is unbiblical: no matter what anyone says or what evidence anyone shows to the contrary.

I understand your frustration, but at the same time, I am finding such good information coming from the responses. Thanks to all from me for answering, and thanks to all from me for asking.

 

[savedsinner]

You know, I almost feel that if there was a scripture passage that said “Ye shall pray to Mary and the Saints” this person would tell catholics they were taking it out of context.

 

[NotWorthy]

You know, I almost feel that if there was a scripture passage that said “Ye shall pray to Mary and the Saints” this person would tell catholics they were taking it out of context.

Be nice, now! Blessed are the meek…

 

[savedsinner]

Be nice, now! Blessed are the meek…

Well, I have to be mean, because if I am not mean, then I am afraid that I will convert to… to… to… well what ever church he belongs to, because it must have the truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, I have to be mean, because if I am not mean, then I am afraid that I will convert to… to… to… well what ever church he belongs to, because it must have the truth.

BTW, the weather in Cleveland was great this week!!! I hated coming back to Texas where the weather and the humidity are in the upper 90’s for about 4 months straight.

 

[savedsinner]

BTW, the weather in Cleveland was great this week!!! I hated coming back to Texas where the weather and the humidity are in the upper 90’s for about 4 months straight.

I feel your pain, up here around Portland Oregon, we have had 6 days this summer that has hit 90 degrees or more, with one day hitting 100. whew !!!
Of course today it only got up into the 60’s.

I really don’t miss the heat and humidity combination of the east coast.

 

[savedsinner]

justasking4
If you haven’t read it already, you might want to read the wikipedia article on Idolatry
And then go on with the discussion you wanted to start.
(so we are all on the same page to start with)

 

[resting]

If it is claimed that Mary was not sinless what exactly is the sin accredited to her account?

 

[stranger_1991]

If it is claimed that Mary was not sinless what exactly is the sin accredited to her account?

 

[justasking4]

Justasking,

where is Lazarus in Lk 16?

In this parable a place of torment. Where is Abraham and beggar in this parable?

What is the point of this story?