Discussing Mary

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If you think i’m wrong about this, then show me in scripture another “mediator” like Jesus Who is no longer physically present with us that we are to pray to?
Even Paul when he was about to die did not exhort believers to pary to him after he had died. Nor did Peter, James or John. If anyone would be qualified to pray to it would be them and yet they never teach such a thing.

Moses was dead already and God says that even Moses’s prayer would not moved him to not send them away…meaning GOD CAN HEAR THE PRAYERS OF THE DEAD!!!

Jer 15:1
Quote:
The LORD said to me: Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me, my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them away from me.

The problem with this passage in Jer is that its not about prayer but that God Himself would not be persuaded by Moses or Samuel were to petition Him.

---

 

[HailMary]

The problem with this passage in Jer is that its not about prayer but that God Himself would not be persuaded by Moses or Samuel were to petition Him.

---

The problem is not with the passage, its with your theology, my friend. God bless you and may you come to the truth’s fullness in the Catholic Church one day.

All I can leave you with the idea to really delve into history, see what the earliest Christians believed, what the root of Sola Scriptura REALLY is, and how the Christians determined the Canon of the Bible.

 

[justasking4]

HailMary;2608211]Do you know how to read the that passage?
Who are the saints?

Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Therefore the Angel is praying for the saints.

Where do you see an angel in this passage?

I think you need to read the text for what is it, not trying to fit it into a religion framework that you believe to be there.

Thanks for the advice. Now, can you do the same?

 

[justasking4]

HailMary;2608230]The problem is not with the passage, its with your theology, my friend. God bless you and may you come to the truth’s fullness in the Catholic Church one day.

Why don’t you deal with the understanding of the passage instead of this kind of response. Study the scriptures.

All I can leave you with the idea to really delve into history, see what the earliest Christians believed, what the root of Sola Scriptura REALLY is, and how the Christians determined the Canon of the Bible.

I know a lot about this. As good as these topics are they have no direct bearing on this thread.

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;2608196]No you don’t - if one member of ONE SINGLE body can’t communicate with the other members (via the brain and the nervous and circulatory systems) it’s no longer a member of the body. It’s either a dead appendage or belongs to a different body. Remember we’re not separate entities in spiritual terms - we’re all members of the ONE SINGLE BODY. Surely then we can all communicate on a spiritual level.

If a person is deaf or unconscious does that mean they are no longer part of the human race or the church?
If a person does not have the means to communicate via technology does that mean they are no longer part of the human race?

Yes it does - we’re part of one (single) body, very scriptural. Not a community, a BODY - Christ’s body.

Your hand, foot, eyes, heart and lungs all tell each other what to do - sometimes via the brain, but not necessarily ALWAYS having to go to it.

That’s the reason you have a spine - it’s a shortcut in the nervous system so that in certain situations body parts can DIRECTLY communicate with each other since it’s quicker.

So does Christ allow all earthly and heavenly members of his body to communicate on a spiritual level -with each other as well as Him.

This does not follow on a spiritual level. Taking your example of the human body we know when a person dies we can no longer communicate with them.

And common sense certainly does tell us too. We’re not one body if we can’t communicate on a spiritual level with each other.

All because something may be “common sense” that does not mean its true. It certainly not scriptural.

Remember as spiritual beings Christ and the saints don’t suffer the physical barriers to communication that occur in regard to physical bodies. Communication is absolutely possible betwen all members through Christ.

How do you know this? What evidence do you have from the scriptures? What apostle ever taught this?

Hence Christ telling both Paul and Ananias what to do. Hence Phillip being relocated after baptising the Ethiopian. Hence the angel opening the jail doors for Peter. There are no barriers between the earthly and heavenly in Christ - his power bridges that gap.

The Lord Jesus has the power to do this because He is God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Lord Jesus has the power to do this because He is God.

And Jesus tells His followers–the apostles and those who come after them–us–that we will do greater deeds than He. Right in Scripture. Are you limiting God’s power because it makes you uncomfortable to think that “mere” men have a ‘share’ in the Body of Christ? That they might have ‘power’? Even if they have a ‘share’ and can do miraculous deeds, they still aren’t God. They don’t diminish Jesus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking:

Where do you see an angel in this passage?

Just clear any confusion about the passage in Ephesians. The Cloud of Witness refers to saints, not Angels. In fact the word, Martyr originated from the Greek word μάρτυς which means “witness.” Since Christian martyrs are saints. This passage clearly indict men and women who died in Christ.

 

[justasking4]

Tantum ergo;2608396]And Jesus tells His followers–the apostles and those who come after them–us–that we will do greater deeds than He. Right in Scripture.

What do you think He meant? I would think you would agree that to this present day no man or woman has done greater things than what is recorded in the gospels by Christ.

Are you limiting God’s power because it makes you uncomfortable to think that “mere” men have a ‘share’ in the Body of Christ? That they might have ‘power’? Even if they have a ‘share’ and can do miraculous deeds, they still aren’t God. They don’t diminish Jesus.

What i’m concerned about is the truth. All kinds of claims are made but that doesn’t mean they are true. That’s why i think the claims the catholic church makes about Mary are absolutely important to discuss since these doctrines are so central to the catholic faith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

What do you think He meant? I would think you would agree that to this present day no man or woman has done greater things than what is recorded in the gospels by Christ.

What i’m concerned about is the truth. All kinds of claims are made but that doesn’t mean they are true. That’s why i think the claims the catholic church makes about Mary are absolutely important to discuss since these doctrines are so central to the catholic faith.

The doctrine of Mary from the dogma of the Immaculate Conception to her Assumptions is connected to her close relationship with Jesus Christ.

Even in her Magnificat, Mary’s song points to the Glory of God not herself.

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

God made her immaculate because Mary was destined to bear the Son of God. There are numerous times, in the Bible where God’s presence is to be taken seriously.

Moses for example during his encounter with God was told to take off his sandal for the very ground he was on is Holy. Another account is the Ark of the Covenant. No one is to touch the Ark, if they did, they would surely die.

When Mary accepted to be part of salvation history, the Word (who is God) became flesh. She in symbolic sense became a living Ark of the New Covenant. Jesus was conceived within Mary’s womb.

There is a deep sacredness in this. Since the first 9 months of Jesus life was in the womb in 14 yrs old Jewish girl. Like I said, what God touches becomes holy.

In the Gospel of Luke 1:28 The angel visited Mary

28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, * the Lord is with you!” * 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.

She is addressed as full of grace in Greek it iss kecharitomene. In fact, a strict translation of kecharitomene is “thou who hast been graced.” Of the two options, “full of grace” is a more clear and definite rendering of the angel’s words than “favour.” For this conclusion there exists the authority of the Latin Fathers; the Codices of Alexandrinus and Ephrem; the Syriac and Arabic versions of the Bible; and even the writings of Protestants such as Wycliffe, Tyndale, and Beza.

The Church, furthermore, asserts that God, immediately after Adam’s fall, cursed Satan and said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head” (Gen. 3, 15). It was by the Virgin Mary’s seed, that is, Jesus Christ, that the kingdom of Satan was demolished. It was not fitting that She, who was to co-operate in the defeat of Satan, should ever be infected by his breath or a slave to his kingdom of sin. The enmity between the Virgin Mary and the serpent placed by God was Her triumph over sin, Her Immaculate Conception.

To the contrary, however, it is asserted that the Virgin Mary again admitted that She was a sinner when She presented herself in the Temple for purification in accordance with the Law of Moses: “she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement on her behalf, and she shall be clean’” (Lev. 12, 8). The Virgin Mary observed this Law not because She believed Herself to be defiled by giving birth to Christ, but to give an example of humility and obedience by fulfilling all outward observances. For the Virgin Mary was not subject to this particular law by virtue of what God Himself had laid down in prefacing it: “If a woman having received seed shall bear a man child, she shall be unclean seven days…” (v. 2 [Douai]). The conception and birth of Christ was not due to the reception of male seed but rather to the power of the Holy Spirit. In no way can it be claimed that in conceiving, bearing and delivering Christ the Virgin Mary was made “unclean.” In fact, the opposite would have occurred, that is, She would have received an augmentation of grace.20

That God should have created the Virgin Mary in a state of holiness as He had formed Eve and the angels is also befitting the honour of God: of the Father, whose daughter She is; of the Son, whose mother She is; and of the Holy Spirit, who, in the incarnation, took the Virgin Mary to be His spouse. Further, as the “new Eve” and mother of the new Adam, the Virgin Mary cannot appropriately be anything less than the original Eve; on the contrary, as Christ excelled Adam, so the Virgin Mary (though to a lesser degree) should excel Eve. Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church has consistently and universally proclaimed the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary:

 

[NotWorthy]

My take on communication among the members of the body comes from 1 Corinthians, chapter 12:

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."

Now, their inability to say this comes not from their inability to communicate. It comes from their need for one another.

To further this point,

If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

Now, I ask you, how can one part of the Body “affect” another, but not communicate?

 

[stranger_1991]

Scripture doesn’t tell us. Keep in mind it doesn’t tell us the specific sins of others either. Should i assume they were sinless also?

Hi justasking4,

If you take the case to court - and you want to charge someone with an offense – then at least point out what the offense is. To say he/she generally broke the law is not a convincing argument.

Let us suppose that Mary is charged with Adam’s sin. . . for as in Adam all die. . . I can argue that she is not in Adam but in Christ. Now would you argue that Mary is *in Adam and in Christ *at the same time?

But as far as your comment goes take a look at Job. What is Job’s sin? If Mary is called: ‘a sinner like the rest of us’ you need to be able to prove it from scripture. I am saying that you cannot.

blessings

 

[NotWorthy]

Stranger?

I’m not sure that it is the role of the Bible to list the sins of all the sinners. I agree with you that Mary is sinless, but I don’t agree with the logic that you are using to show her sinlessness. If the Bible had previously cataloged other people’s sins, then I’d say, "You go, Stranger!!!’ But, alas, it doesn’t.

 

[JosefTan]

Well-Presented, Manyfit75!
JosefTan

 

[MariaG]

Do you have any scripture that shows an angel praying to God for someone?

Yes. Unfortunately it did not fit with Luther’s theology so he threw it out of the Protestant bible. You could probably say that bringing a reminder is different from praying, since it does not fit with your theology, but it is interesting that Luther felt the need to get rid of this book of God’s inspired word.

Tobit 12:12-15
And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you.
13] When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you.
14] So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
15] I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

The issue is not are there 2 bodies but is there communcation between the members that have died and the living here. Catholics must assume there is but the scriptures never teach such a thing.

Just because there may be 2 living beings does not mean they can communicate. We know this is true on an earthly level. Take the miners who are trapped in Utah. There may be a great desire to communciate with the miners but so far that has not happened. The reason are that we don’t have the ability to do so and the miners themselves are incapable of doing so. In fact it looks like we will never be able.

Actually, this is not true. There are documented miracles in the Catholic Church of something called bilocation. That is, there are people whom are known to be at one place on earth, yet appear in another location also. God can allow people on earth, even those like the miners, to be comforted by the presence of saints who are still on earth, to speak and communicate.

You see, nothing is impossible with God

tanbooks.com/doct/mysteries_marvels.htm

Does that mean that everyone can do this? Of course not. Does this mean we believe that everyone who has died can hear us? Of course not, but we can have faith and pray that it is true, because we do know that the communion of saints and the one body of Christ are not cut off from each other even with physical death.

One body.

Why not pray and meditate on this miraculous thing. We are ONE body. Think of what that truly means.

It is much deeper than just this, :grouphug: .

God Bless,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

stranger 1991;2610054]Hi justasking4,

If you take the case to court - and you want to charge someone with an offense – then at least point out what the offense is. To say he/she generally broke the law is not a convincing argument.

You are not going far enough with your example. If this was a court of law the prosecution would have interviewed the people who knew her and also bring her to the witness stand to answer questions to determine if she had.

Let us suppose that Mary is charged with Adam’s sin. . . for as in Adam all die. . . I can argue that she is not in Adam but in Christ.

How would you do this? Were both her parents human? If so, she is in Adam.

Now would you argue that Mary is *in Adam and in Christ *at the same time?

Yes. All Christians are.

But as far as your comment goes take a look at Job. What is Job’s sin?

He presumed to know things that he really didn’t. See Job 42:1-6

If Mary is called: ‘a sinner like the rest of us’ you need to be able to prove it from scripture. I am saying that you cannot.

blessings

Scripture does not mention any specific sin of Mary nor does it of most others either. The burden of proof is on those who claim she was without sin. What God could do is not an argument. What we need to see in scripture that she is somehow an exception to this. The fact of the matter there is none.
Romans 3:9-10 would be one place to look that identifies all men without exception are sinners.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2615120]Actually, this is not true. There are documented miracles in the Catholic Church of something called bilocation. That is, there are people whom are known to be at one place on earth, yet appear in another location also.

I would need to see the evidence for this.

God can allow people on earth, even those like the miners, to be comforted by the presence of saints who are still on earth, to speak and communicate.

You see, nothing is impossible with God

Just because you may believe something is possible doesn’t mean it happened. There really is no way to know with any certainty that a person is being comforted by the saints (whoever they may be) or something else. If anything, we know from scripture itself that it is Christ comforts us and not some departed saints. See 2 Corinthians 7:6 for example.

tanbooks.com/doct/mysteries_marvels.htm

Does that mean that everyone can do this? Of course not. Does this mean we believe that everyone who has died can hear us? Of course not, but we can have faith and pray that it is true, because we do know that the communion of saints and the one body of Christ are not cut off from each other even with physical death.

One body.

All you have here is speculation that does sound reasonable. The problem is that there is no evidence in scripture to support the idea that those who have died can hear your or be any help to you.

Why not pray and meditate on this miraculous thing. We are ONE body. Think of what that truly means.

You have not demonstrated this is true though. The scriptures don’t teach it. Going beyond the scriptures is dangerous and unnecessary for the fact that in Christ we have all our needs taken care of. There is no need for Mary’s or the saints intercession.

It is much deeper than just this, :grouphug: .

God Bless,
Maria

Study the scriptures that point us to Christ. In Him we have treasure beyond measure.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2613328]Yes. Unfortunately it did not fit with Luther’s theology so he threw it out of the Protestant bible. You could probably say that bringing a reminder is different from praying, since it does not fit with your theology, but it is interesting that Luther felt the need to get rid of this book of God’s inspired word.

What books did Luther throw out?

Tobit 12:12-15
And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you.
13] When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you.
14] So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah.
15] I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

God Bless,
Maria

Tobit is part of the apocphyra and is widely disputed. However, this last part reminds me of the passage in Revelation which essentially says the same thing. The key word here is “present”. Do you happen to know what that word means here in this context?
Does it mean someone praying to another creature?

 

[NotWorthy]

What books did Luther throw out?

Are Maccabees part of your Inspired Canon? Tobit? If not, then someone threw them out (among, of course, a total of 7 books), because they were considered Canon for 1100 years prior to the New New Testament (give or take 100 years).

Tobit is part of the apocphyra and is widely disputed. However, this last part reminds me of the passage in Revelation which essentially says the same thing. The key word here is “present”. Do you happen to know what that word means here in this context?
Does it mean someone praying to another creature?Define widely disputed.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

Mannyfit75;2608910]The doctrine of Mary from the dogma of the Immaculate Conception to her Assumptions is connected to her close relationship with Jesus Christ.

Even in her Magnificat, Mary’s song points to the Glory of God not herself.

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."God made her immaculate because Mary was destined to bear the Son of God.

There is no proof for this statement. In fact it goes against what the scriptures teach that all have sinned. This would include Mary.

There are numerous times, in the Bible where God’s presence is to be taken seriously.

Moses for example during his encounter with God was told to take off his sandal for the very ground he was on is Holy. Another account is the Ark of the Covenant. No one is to touch the Ark, if they did, they would surely die.

Good point. However, this has nothing to do with being sinless.

When Mary accepted to be part of salvation history, the Word (who is God) became flesh. She in symbolic sense became a living Ark of the New Covenant. Jesus was conceived within Mary’s womb.

There is a deep sacredness in this. Since the first 9 months of Jesus life was in the womb in 14 yrs old Jewish girl. Like I said, what God touches becomes holy.

This is a loaded statement that has major ramifications. For example, when Jesus touched people did they become holy and sinless?

In the Gospel of Luke 1:28 The angel visited Mary

28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, * the Lord is with you!” * 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.

She is addressed as full of grace in Greek it iss kecharitomene. In fact, a strict translation of kecharitomene is “thou who hast been graced.” Of the two options, “full of grace” is a more clear and definite rendering of the angel’s words than “favour.” For this conclusion there exists the authority of the Latin Fathers; the Codices of Alexandrinus and Ephrem; the Syriac and Arabic versions of the Bible; and even the writings of Protestants such as Wycliffe, Tyndale, and Beza.

The problem is that in these definitions there is no hint of being sinless. The other problem is the context in which this occurs in Luke. The context is being is being told that she will bear the Christ in her body. There is nothing in this passage that demands she be without sin. Its not there.

The Church, furthermore, asserts that God, immediately after Adam’s fall, cursed Satan and said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head” (Gen. 3, 15). It was by the Virgin Mary’s seed, that is, Jesus Christ, that the kingdom of Satan was demolished.

It was not fitting that She, who was to co-operate in the defeat of Satan, should ever be infected by his breath or a slave to his kingdom of sin.

Again the catholic church goes beyond what is written. There is no support in scripture for this claim that she was not “infected by his breath or a slave to his kingdom of sin.” Not even those who knew her best ever make such a claim about her. Jesus never says this about her.

The enmity between the Virgin Mary and the serpent placed by God was Her triumph over sin, Her Immaculate Conception.

To the contrary, however, it is asserted that the Virgin Mary again admitted that She was a sinner when She presented herself in the Temple for purification in accordance with the Law of Moses: “she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement on her behalf, and she shall be clean’” (Lev. 12, 8).

part 2 to follow