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petra22
Guest
He really looks in PAIN in the top picture…!
Disgruntled Pope Francis slaps hand of woman who grabs him; later apologizes
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I am 67 and broke my right ankle in 3 places almost 9 years ago. I wear an ankle brace. I am unsteady on my feet and I think if you have arthritic knees, like I do, you would be unsteady. If I were beginning to walk one direction and someone grabbed my
hand and yanked me towards them, I would probably fall. Falling is a great fear for a senior person. I think Pope Francis reacted because he had a fright and he was perturbed with this woman that her actions could have resulted in him being hurt.
hand and yanked me towards them, I would probably fall. Falling is a great fear for a senior person. I think Pope Francis reacted because he had a fright and he was perturbed with this woman that her actions could have resulted in him being hurt.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Agreed. And if you watch it slowly, he doesn’t react to the first woman apparently holding his arm, until quite suddenly there is pain from both the tight grip of the first woman, and the extension of his arm and loss of balance from the pull of the second. His cheerful demeanour changes too rapidly to be anything but a reflex.
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Feanor2
Guest
There seems to be a Catholic culture of getting physical and zealous around religiosity in the Philippines.
You see this in the rambunctious parades of the Black Jesus where people push and shove to get in the position to touch it.
You see this in the rambunctious parades of the Black Jesus where people push and shove to get in the position to touch it.
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BigRon
Guest
After watching that video it looks like two women grabbed him.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
That’s my impression of the first six seconds, but if you then look at the first woman’s expression in the following seconds she seems surprised and even angry at the Asian woman, hence my interpretation that it was only the Asian woman pulling Francis, and the first, when she felt it, was actually resisting the sudden tug from the Asian woman.
The indentations in Francis’ forearm (thanks again for the observation, @Minks) could be telling here.
Here is my freeze of the moment just as Francis is pulled:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
See my inset (RHS) for a close-up of the scoring in Francis arm. It’s clearly the result of two fingers firmly pressed. The direction of the scoring will tell us whether she is pulling away from the Asian woman, or towards her.
It’s not decisive (of course), but I think it’s just visible.
I’ll leave it with others.
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BigRon
Guest
Quality editing!
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Edmundus1581
Guest
@BigRon. Thanks so much! Yes, it was a lot of work and I didn’t really expect an acknowledgement. 
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BigRon
Guest
I wanted to do it but I knew it would look awful with oversized wonky arrows all over the place.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Peer recognition is the sweetest!
, and thanks for thinking about doing this work yourself.I’m no artist, but I’ve had to do a lot of graphics for work as a computer programmer over the years, hence I’ve aquired some competance with technical graphics.
I use Paint.Net (free, and better than the standard Paint for Windows). Curiously, it’s weak on arrows, hence minimal use of arrows in my freeze.
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Minks
Guest
@Edmundus1581
Thank you for these angles to better explain what I was pointing out.
Lol! Can you imagine how long the security guard’s arm would’ve had to have been for it to have been the guard’s hand that was hurting Pope Francis? And, can you even imagine a guard trying to hurt him?
I wish that someone could capture the creases in Pope Francis’ skin, above where the person’s fingers are curled into his flesh. That could only result from application of heavy pressure.
Look at the abject pain etched on the Pope’s face! People who think he could’ve reacted differently, if he merely chose to, have never experienced the pain resulting from that type of grip.
Also, when the picture is in focus, you can see the reddish/lavender fingers and yellowish/whitish knuckles—because strength is being applied by those fingers. Once the Pope’s forward momentum was stopped and he was close enough for people in the front row, behind the wall, to touch him as others had, there was no need for the grabber to continue to hold his arm—let alone to curl his/her fingers so painfully into the Pope’s flesh.
Watch the initial jerk of the Pope’s arm. Look at the angle. It is likely that his shoulder socket was also damaged.
This short film should be proof to all who read here how terribly difficult it sometimes is for eye witnesses (in this case, film witnesses) to accurately describe what they’ve just seen occur—yet men and women have received the death penalty for similar faulty evidence.
Thank you for these angles to better explain what I was pointing out.
Lol! Can you imagine how long the security guard’s arm would’ve had to have been for it to have been the guard’s hand that was hurting Pope Francis? And, can you even imagine a guard trying to hurt him?
I wish that someone could capture the creases in Pope Francis’ skin, above where the person’s fingers are curled into his flesh. That could only result from application of heavy pressure.
Look at the abject pain etched on the Pope’s face! People who think he could’ve reacted differently, if he merely chose to, have never experienced the pain resulting from that type of grip.
Also, when the picture is in focus, you can see the reddish/lavender fingers and yellowish/whitish knuckles—because strength is being applied by those fingers. Once the Pope’s forward momentum was stopped and he was close enough for people in the front row, behind the wall, to touch him as others had, there was no need for the grabber to continue to hold his arm—let alone to curl his/her fingers so painfully into the Pope’s flesh.
Watch the initial jerk of the Pope’s arm. Look at the angle. It is likely that his shoulder socket was also damaged.
This short film should be proof to all who read here how terribly difficult it sometimes is for eye witnesses (in this case, film witnesses) to accurately describe what they’ve just seen occur—yet men and women have received the death penalty for similar faulty evidence.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Thanks @Minks. I’ve watched it many times now in slow-mo, and seen the creases in Francis’ flesh, and still can’t be sure whether the first woman was pulling him (in a planned maneuvre), or resisting the pull of the Asian woman (reflexively). After her hand initially reached out, that is, and followed Francis’ arm down in his movement away from the crowd.
As for Francis’ pain and shock, that is undoubtable, especially when seen in slow-mo. Again, it is unclear how much the first woman’s tight grip contributed, although in ordinary circumstances it would be a painful grip.
We could add that even the “victim”, Pope Francis himself, seems unaware of that there are two people holding him, with his reaction focused entirely on just one! His memory, if it were to come to a court case (which obviously it wont), would likely be that he felt “that woman” pulling his arm and holding him painfully.
As for Francis’ pain and shock, that is undoubtable, especially when seen in slow-mo. Again, it is unclear how much the first woman’s tight grip contributed, although in ordinary circumstances it would be a painful grip.
Well said! Great observation.
We could add that even the “victim”, Pope Francis himself, seems unaware of that there are two people holding him, with his reaction focused entirely on just one! His memory, if it were to come to a court case (which obviously it wont), would likely be that he felt “that woman” pulling his arm and holding him painfully.
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Cathoholic
Guest
Thanks Edmundus1581.
I have changed my mind.
I thought the hand coming underneath was from the guard.
It looks like that is “scarf-lady’s” hand.
“Filipino-lady” (who nobody disputes is also grabbing) was also grabbing, but I see the hand underneath the wrist is not from “Filipino-lady”.
Thanks again for your expertise.
I have changed my mind.
I thought the hand coming underneath was from the guard.
It looks like that is “scarf-lady’s” hand.
“Filipino-lady” (who nobody disputes is also grabbing) was also grabbing, but I see the hand underneath the wrist is not from “Filipino-lady”.
Thanks again for your expertise.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
And thankyou also @Cathoholic for the gracious acknowledgement. It means a lot to me.
“Scarf-lady”. Much better than my “first woman”.
“Scarf-lady”. Much better than my “first woman”.
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BlueMaxx
Guest
Having been around a lot of elderly patients it looks as if he genuinely is wincing in pain…
I the it was just a little too much exuberance and an unfortunate grasp that genuinely hurt him…
Neither party is to be blamed too harshly.
In one sense it is humbling to see how a Pope is a real person…
I the it was just a little too much exuberance and an unfortunate grasp that genuinely hurt him…
Neither party is to be blamed too harshly.
In one sense it is humbling to see how a Pope is a real person…
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Feanor2
Guest
So when is this story going to die?
The Pope apologized. Isn’t it done?
The Pope apologized. Isn’t it done?
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Joe_5859
Guest
That’s very implausible to me.
I’ve been in this situation before. Getting a spot by the railing is impossible to plan. It’s the luck of where you are in the crowd. Getting a spot by the railing where the pope actually walks past you is doubly impossible to predict. He could have just as easily been shaking the hands of the people on the other side of the aisle for that stretch of the crowd.
There is no way for someone to “plan” this. We have here two women who were super excited and super lucky to have a spot staked out by the railing. And they saw Pope Francis coming so close and were expecting to shake hands with him only to have him turn away just before he would have got to them. Reaching for his hand at that point was more instinctual than calculated.
Not that pulling him towards you is the right thing to do. It’s definitely not. But I can understand how a pilgrim would be swept up in the moment.
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Minks
Guest
@Joe_5859
If I’m understanding you correctly, you think it was entirely accidental and unintentional that Scarf Person didn’t grab the lower arm of St Francis by wrapping his/her hand around the whole wrist? Scarf Person only accidentally and unintentionally crimped his/her fingers around the bottom portion of St Francis’s wrist so tightly that
I don’t buy it.
Only a conscious decision to do so results in fingers curling deeply enough to cause sustained pain into that particular wrist area of fleshy soft tissue, nerves and tendons.
Here’s a little experiment: with several friends together, do that same exercise. How much pressure must be exerted in order to cause creases to appear in the area above the pressure contact? What kind of pressure must occur before the knuckles lighten in color? How long must the pressure be sustained before they lighten? Does the victim complain before that occurs? Does he/she think that type of pressure could be accidental or unintentional?
After the first demonstration, how many of the remaining friends in the gathering will agree to play Pope Francis?
If I’m understanding you correctly, you think it was entirely accidental and unintentional that Scarf Person didn’t grab the lower arm of St Francis by wrapping his/her hand around the whole wrist? Scarf Person only accidentally and unintentionally crimped his/her fingers around the bottom portion of St Francis’s wrist so tightly that
- his/her knuckles turned yellowish/whitish from the pressure being applied, and
- a deep impression (from the pressure being applied) into St Francis’s wrist is shown—so deep that
- creases appear in St Francis’ wrist above the grasp?
I don’t buy it.
Only a conscious decision to do so results in fingers curling deeply enough to cause sustained pain into that particular wrist area of fleshy soft tissue, nerves and tendons.
Here’s a little experiment: with several friends together, do that same exercise. How much pressure must be exerted in order to cause creases to appear in the area above the pressure contact? What kind of pressure must occur before the knuckles lighten in color? How long must the pressure be sustained before they lighten? Does the victim complain before that occurs? Does he/she think that type of pressure could be accidental or unintentional?
After the first demonstration, how many of the remaining friends in the gathering will agree to play Pope Francis?
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Joe_5859
Guest
What seems more likely? That the women were so excited about being so close to the pope, and then zealously grasped onto him as they saw him drifting away from them. Or that the women thought, “Wow! Now’s my chance to inflict some pain on the pope! I’m just going to dig my fingers in, hah!”
It just doesn’t seem plausible to me that this was in any way premeditated or anything other than an unfortunate accident.
It just doesn’t seem plausible to me that this was in any way premeditated or anything other than an unfortunate accident.
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