Disillusioned by the world

  • Thread starter Thread starter NewsTheMan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good idea, Irishman!

👍

Chev, for many generations, women had that same behavior thrown at them… the man dates all the bad girls and then when he’s done sowing his “wild oats” she should be happy he has consented to let her be his incubator and produce his children. It’s her reward for not having any fun and for being virtuous…

Well, that’s how it feels from the other end, whether that’s the intent…

Don’t be anyone’s parking lot, doormat or anything like that. And no, life is way too short for head games, so don’t begin to get pulled into that.
 
Liberanos, I don’t mind being the person who has to deal with someone’s issues from the past–I probably bring enough of my own to the table. What I mind is basically what you say, the “finally consenting”. It comes down to whether we’re dealing with an honest change, or a design in which settling down with a nice guy comes after having fun with all the bad guys. A “design” to have fun first and “grace” a nice guy later, abandoned and regretted afterwards, is fine too. A *current *“smart” choice is not fine, as in, “now that I’ve had my fun, I can have some rest, you still interested?” I will need to know that I wasn’t being put off for after the fun. “I” or a generic “nice guy”. It has to do with the, “good for husband, bad for boyfriend,” conundrum. If I wouldn’t be good enough (there’s a reason why I’m not saying, “wouldn’t have been”) for a boyfriend, then I don’t want to be the husband. And I definitely don’t even want any attention from someone who sees me as “not cool enough” or some such, but tolerable because what? Because I will work my hands off as opposite to cooler types that don’t give the guarantee? Because I won’t throw my fists around like some of the cooler types might be inclined to? Because I won’t disappear overnight and I’m still better than a cold bed? Because I have a couple of postnominals that give a nice illusion of social standing? Because I might be coaxed, after all, into that foot massage and breakfast brought to bed with a large smile in gratitude for finally being consented to? Not gonna happen. Even if I’m going to die single. As much as I won’t say a word (or think much–to the extent I’m able) about anything which is regretted.
 
Chev, you’re a gentleman and a scholar indeed! 😃

I know what you mean about the whole playing games thing. And I too have never really understood it or wanted to participate in it. My best friend has been in a relationship with a girl for 3 years. And he constantly tells me how he has to put her in her place so she “knows”. And at the same time, she dresses provocatively etc etc so that he “knows”. Nevermind the fact that he says there isn’t a chance he is going to marry her :eek: I dont get involved. But that whole attitude forms part of the problem.

Not only is there this culture where you date and think ya but we never getting married, but there is a push and pull relationship power struggle. You can’t be a nice guy because women will exploit you - and I know how emasculated that makes me and others feel haha. But in a sense its true.

And at the same time I know what you mean about sowing wild oats. It shocks me and gives me absolutely no hope at all that the women here most definately won’t carry on like this… and yet, 10 years down the line they will be wanting husbands. Little will he know that she has slept with, at the very least, 5 guys in college, got drunk 3 times a week and behaved like a pig, etc etc. And yes, I don’t want to be that nice guy someone settles down with.

And look I don’t have a problem if someone has a past. (providing its not enough to question morals, judgement, and the claim it was a mistake). My ex for example, and this was a huge problem in the relationship, had slept with a few guys. And at first I was shocked but after 2 minutes I was like whatever as long as you regret it and what not. And the response I got was that I am the worst boyfriend in the world, and she started crying. When I tried consoling her she went on about how she would never regret it and she would still do the exact same things. I couldnt, and cant, understand that. To me it screamed the kind of thing that saddens my heart - young women giving themselves away to feel something emotional and holding onto the pieces of their heart they can’t get back. I hope that makes sense. In any case…

I don’t mind about getting drunk, I don’t mind about going out, in fact I like those things. But in college, here especially, there is a culture of extremes. You go out not to have a good time, no. Go out to get hammered and hook up. and that makes a “good time”. My own father tells me how much he says things have changed. He was telling me how yeah in his day people got drunk. But that wasnt the focus of going out. You go out to have a beer and to socialise, and you end up drinking a bit and then going home. Yeah some took it too far but thats life.

Chev, its going to be hard to avoid the games. I fell into the games with my ex. And I regret that relationship, but I am thankful too because God showed me the way. I don’t want games. Love isn’t a game. God is Love. and God doesn’t play games (only, im sure, the fun ones like monopoly). 😛

👍
 
NewsTheMan said:
And at the same time I know what you mean about sowing wild oats. It shocks me and gives me absolutely no hope at all that the women here most definately won’t carry on like this… and yet, 10 years down the line they will be wanting husbands. Little will he know that she has slept with, at the very least, 5 guys in college, got drunk 3 times a week and behaved like a pig, etc etc. And yes, I don’t want to be that nice guy someone settles down with.
Click to expand...
Why do you think you feel this way? Is it that you don’t want a “used” wife?
 
I’m 25, recently finished up my college career at a Catholic school in the city. Early on, I felt disillusioned, even after participating with the on-campus Catholic youth group (I’m very extroverted and spontaneous, they were very introverted [some were even depressed killjoys] and saw me as a nuisance - oh well.)

I felt lost and alone, too. Monotony set in. I visited the chapel every day on campus, praying for someone to be out there that I could depend on.

During my junior year, I found friends where I least expected to find them. In my classes, in my workplace, etc. I also did study abroad for a semester during my junior year to Rome and made many more friends (and saw a lot of boorish, drunken behavior by everyone else, too).
Different faiths and different cultures, but we all got along great. Don’t even think about finding dates; it’ll just stresses you out even more.

Find a great group of friends first. They’ll lead you to living a fun and full life. And these should be people who respect or even share your values and beliefs, even if they aren’t strictly Catholic. Be proud of your religion and values; it makes you very interesting to talk to! You’d be surprised how many students just want to find out more about the Catholic faith than the gossip they hear about it from the media.

Don’t let the goons get you down. Just wait till you see the working world…
 
Thank you, News. :tiphat:

In turn, I precisely know what you’re talking about in terms of that power struggle. I’m totally against any relationships which are already known to be closed to marriage. I don’t want to judge people, I just reject the attitude.

As for the “counter”, I could get over the fact she slept with 5 guys in college, got drunk twice a week and behaved like a pig, if she regretted that, as you did. On the other hand, if she merely saw that as a stage in life, part of growing up, which were now over, then I’m sorry but that wouldn’t be enough for me (maybe with the unlikely exception of a very, very loving but maladjusted person, basically the “savage” scenario where someone’s just waiting to be shown the light).

As for the other thing, well, people don’t want to regret their pasts. Sexual adventures tend to be highly pleasurable to people and if they don’t get the concept of regret, they think it’s the pleasure which is being somehow torn away from their pasts and they don’t want to give it away… say, imagine you or I have a hardcore vegetarian wife, it’s not fine if you stop eating meat, you also have to regret every ham sandwich in your life. Come on, someone is telling you to give up the delicious ham sandwiches mum made for us for school. W-h-a-t? I guess people operate the same way with regard to sex. Besides, people generally want to be unjudged and free from morality. Questioning their sexual behaviours prevents that wish from coming true.

I fell into games too not longer than two weeks ago, while I shouldn’t have cared for being tough and should have consistently been nice, nice, nice. I just didn’t have the energy to, and I allowed myself to exhibit my displeasure (probably not more than any normal human would, anyway), which led to lots of flak coming my way. Then again, I’m not a robot, I have my feelings too. Lesson for the future, however: don’t let it show again, talk about it like an adult. The girl herself, however, wonder if she ever was not playing a game when talking to me. In fact, I don’t mind games that come down to “try harder”, “don’t assume”, “keep it up” etc., but false communication is a line not to be crossed, as is manipulation, inducing uncertainty and insecurity, playing people’s jealousy etc. There’s long been a social approval of that kind of thing, which is bad.
 
flyingfish said:
Why do you think you feel this way? Is it that you don’t want a “used” wife?
Click to expand...
I probably shouldn’t be chiming in like this, but it shows from later in News’s post that he doesn’t think like that. Remember when he said, “whatever, as long as you regret it?” This part is about regretting mistakes from the past versus basically planning a life of first having the fun with the bad boy types and then landing a nice guy as a parking lot. Same if I, say, from age 18 had planned to have fun with all the party girls I could get until I were 35 and then settle down and start having my dinners made and socks repaired by a “nice girl”, in which case I doubt you’d be very tolerant of my attitude (and you’d be perfectly right).
 
Chev thanks for chiming in, you said exactly what I would’ve 🙂 a part of this is also remembering I think the Church’s teaching on abstaining before marriage. It has nothing to do with “used” wife, that is your term not mine. It is showing your future partner the respect and love to abstain and to conduct yourself accordingly. Which is the ideal set out by the Church on chastity and abstaining from pre-maritial sex. There is a borderline moral relativism kind of thinking that seems to over hang.

So while I would be forgiving, again, let me say I can’t forgive if there is a clear moral, judgemental, selfish (etc) lack in that person. I’m sorry but sleeping with 50 guys isn’t “used”, it just shows character, and the type of character. And in the same way that you wont be spared from jail if you tell the judge you have changed and no longer want to kill people, that isn’t the point. in my opinion. But each person is different, which is something to remember, and each individual is different.

anyway, chev I enjoyed your ham and vegetarian analogy and it certainly puts things into perspective! Although, and im sure you see the difference, eating meat and vegetarianism is a choice (moral relativism realm - whats good for you isnt good for me). But yeah, still, there should be an element of regret. I believe. And I get that belief not only from myself but from Catholic resources.

TurboVW your advice is sound 🙂 Ya, i’m also pretty outgoing and fun, so I wouldnt wanna meet any killjoys :rolleyes:

👍
 
Okay, now is the time for legal hairsplitting because Chev likes that. 👍

There are various reasons why people should or shouldn’t regret something. So be careful when they say it you’re both talking about the same thing.

There is the “I don’t regret what I did in the past” because they see it as they lived life to the fullest in their own way and had fun and aren’t sorry for their sins. Nothing has changed. They are happy with who they were then and you should be happy with who they are now. This augurs for someone who has not realized the serious implications of a life of drunkeness and promiscuity and what it says about their character.

There is the “I don’t regret what I did in the past” because they see it as stepping stones in a life chain and harbor the oft-mistaken belief that had they missed a particular stone, however pleasant or unpleasant, they would not now be at the point they are of happiness or contentment or having found the partner they are with now. They believe there is only one path to the present and to have missed any step would have altered their course irrevocably. It isn’t that they aren’t sorry for bad choices in the past, or wish they had been better people, but they are looking at the present and what is good about it and they value it enough that the past to them becomes what made them who they are today. And it shouldn’t be regretted on those terms. This is a more positive way of looking at it. Many people take this view and it isn’t as morally toxic as the first one. But it also shows a lack of faith in the damage sin does to them and to Christ and a lack of faith that God could have brought them to their present point in other ways. They are relying too much on a false sense of unalterable fate.

What one NEEDS for regret is a faith mature enough to look back and realize the seriousness of sin. And to be sorry for having sinned. And a decision to avoid it in the future. That is the positive approach that shows the person has grown up and is mature.

Be sure when your date says she doesn’t regret the past, that she is speaking more from #2 than #1. Because from #2 she might get to the point of true regret for her sins and a true change in her approach to life.
 
Thanks for clearing that up 👍

I agree. And most people, I assume in any case, and my ex included, go for option number one. As I said in my story about her, she was deeply offended because of the whole “I am living my life to the fullest in my own way and why should I be sorry for my life God needs to forgive me not me regret a thing I do etc etc”. Your right, that is morally toxic.

I think option number two is something I am slowly weening off of, and getting to option number 3 (which I see as the point in your post where you say “What one NEEDS for regret is a faith mature enough to look back and realize the seriousness of sin. And to be sorry for having sinned. And a decision to avoid it in the future. That is the positive approach that shows the person has grown up and is mature.” Faith is important. Living in Christ is important. And recognising the sin and regretting it, along with confession, leads us to live in Christ in a better way.

For any interested, there is a bit under Chastity.com, where it goes into this. Think its under FAQ and then something like, I have already been unchaste.
 
News, thanks for appreciating my ham analogy (and not to ignore what you said before that, of course). Part of it is precisely that we don’t see the moral dimension of the ham sandwich. A vegetarian might, if his reasons are moral. So we will think it enough if we don’t eat meat in his presence, but what if he told us he wanted us to regret all our past ham sandwiches? Even if he managed to convince us to stop eating meat (for his sake, or by tales of how meat is obtained or processed), it would still be extremely difficult for him to obtain from us actual regret of our past ham sandwiches. At the same time, the matter could be very obvious to him, he might even be an absolutist in his views, why not! At the same time, a relativist may see sexual ethics the same way we see the choice to eat meat or not.

For the record, 50 guys wouldn’t be a deal-breaker for me in itself, although naturally, it would be difficult to come to terms with (the more difficult, the less evidence of solid, permanent, far-gone change). But a current attitude that fun was fun and now a boring nice guy will do as a sort of retirement plan, that would be a deal-breaker.

Liberanos, I always welcome some good hairsplitting. It helps me stay fit and all. 😉

Yes, I see the difference between the two, although I wasn’t thinking in those terms when last posting. I was basically looking for a short way of saying that one should acknowledge the moral wrongness of those actions from the past, that being connected with some change. My focus was not on the meaning of what someone could say about not regretting his past (although your point is well noted and helpful), but the difference between, “It was wrong to did what I did, I am a different person now,” and, “I’ve had my fun, now I can settle down,” especially with #2 being the result of a previous “smart” plan (“I will have some fun with the bad guys/girls now, but I will look for a nice one to settle down with later”).

On a final note, I don’t want to scrutinise someone’s behaviour. I just don’t want to be a convenient parking lot, while I wouldn’t mind being the finally-found harbour, so to say.
 
chevalier said:
Same if I, say, from age 18 had planned to have fun with all the party girls I could get until I were 35 and then settle down and start having my dinners made and socks repaired by a “nice girl”, in which case I doubt you’d be very tolerant of my attitude (and you’d be perfectly right).
Click to expand...
Eh, I used to have very high standards for people’s behavior, and was somewhat of a perfectionist. But after being disappointed by people I pretty much expect everyone to be selfish, hypocritical, and at the same time have the opinion that they’re a great person.
 
Gentlemen, some advice from a mom.

😉

I know many women who had their fun. But God is a God of vivid imagination and ingenuity. And He has his ways of drawing out repentance. Many a woman has entered marriage with a flippant idea of sexuality and her own past. And then God’s bouncing baby life lesson arrives. After months of discomfort, pain and sacrifice on the woman’s part. And suddenly she is responsible for this child’s life. And she views everything in the world with a different set of eyes. Including her own past. Holding innocence in her arms… I’ve seen it turn many a young woman into a devout mother who is truly ashamed of her past sins and wants better for that child.

Do hold out the possibility that God’s chances for grace await many out there.

Your challenge is to find someone who is open to it now. Daily Mass, Saturday morning Mass, holy hours, the teaching staff at your local Catholic school… work, friends… someone out there knows someone and when they meet you… everyone loves to play matchmaker. Allow them. Sometimes they see things we don’t see. I have a friend who knows me and other people well enough that if she said “I found someone you need to meet” I wouldn’t ask any questions.

Hang out with men serious about their faith and their wives. Married couples LOVE to have dinner parties and complete the matched set with a friend. The better someone knows YOU, the better they can find someone who will be compatible. And you let them know you’re looking “for someone who loves God enough to be able to put up with me.” Then everyone will laugh, laugh laugh at your wittiness and charm and go find a nice girl. Yes, it does work that way. So the more friends you have, the better your chance that someone will help you network your way to the altar.
 
chevalier said:
On a final note, I don’t want to scrutinise someone’s behaviour. I just don’t want to be a convenient parking lot, while I wouldn’t mind being the finally-found harbour, so to say.
Click to expand...
Or you can simply get back to that rum and coke/action movie.:cool:

I wish I could agree with Liberanosamalo about single mothers or divorcees reforming/regretting or finding real grace. I can’t think of a single one (and I guess that applies to single fathers/divorced fathers too) that has made any real changes. Instead, they rationalize that behavior or blame every one else. Few people really change; after all it wasn’t the child or even the sex act that created the problem. It was that person’s ideology and mindset, which inevitably stretches back to their upbringing. The divorce, sleeping around, etc. are just symptoms of a major morality issue.

If it sounds like I’m focusing only on women, well that’s to be expected.

In truth, the men that have done these things are no better.
 
Liberanos, I incalculate the factor whereof you speak beyond what’s considered reasonable by my own parents and best friends, who want the best for me while wanting me to do the best at the same time. I am very willing to give a person a chance, particularly in light of a generally good character that should not all be shaded out by one or two even obvious flaws, including even in the area of sexual ethics (and especially when you consider that you can view people’s external behaviours and hear their words but can’t look into their hearts), we’re all people, I was myself in not so great a place a couple of years ago, engaging in a number of my own current “dealbreakers”, so darn do I refuse to cross people out on morality points.

Still, there are some things where it basically hurts. Without giving specific examples, while disordered sexual behaviours are things I can get over if at least as much as an attempt to reject them as a past thing is being made (speaking of some form of internal combat right now), they are basically not things I could count on my psychic stamina to get over them if they were to occur in a relationship with me. Before marrying anyone, I want the person to be free if not of inclination, then at least of acceptance of the possibility of choosing to engage in them. Not to mention I’m very strict in my view of the principle of monogamy. While I understand that people are tempted (and some guys may be more attractive than I am) and I’m not going to give anyone flak over it, I’m not into sharing. Someone with a well-adjusted attitude and a Catholic view of things will understand. Someone imbued with secular ideas of freedom (which includes some practicing Catholics too) will likely object and call me controlling, intolerant etc.
 
Well, those who think marriage involves “sharing” can’t contract a valid marriage anyway.

So that lets you off the hook. 👍
 
Liberanosamalo said:
Well, those who think marriage involves “sharing” can’t contract a valid marriage anyway.

So that lets you off the hook. 👍
Click to expand...
They can. 😉 As long as they don’t positively exclude the consent to making you the beneficiary of a pledge of fidelity, they contract validly. If they think flirting around and doing a couple of more explicit things too is okay, it doesn’t preclude valid consent. Maybe, just maybe fraud if they hide it, but it’d have to qualify as a grave quality anyway, plus, they’d need to hide it consciously with the mind to obtaining consent. Very hard to prove.
 
Whomsoever you find and marry better not try to get into a debate with you. 😃 You are such a lawyer!
 
My last attempt was a lawyer too and wasn’t very logical in debate initiated by self.
 
Nec5 hit the nail on the head for me!

Ideology and mindset is what the problem is for me. And although these things CAN change, they never really do, do they? The burden of being a human being! I have changed aspects of my behaviour, yes, but I have mainained by beliefs throughout- just strengthened what I already knew and thought! Hard to explain.

Chev, I know what you mean about the sharing stuff too. People have some funny views on monogamy and stuff.

FlyingFish, its sad you view people that way, although I do understand where you are coming from! But I don’t want to get to that point just yet, I am holding out!

Peace!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top