Dismissed From Deacon Formation Program

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"If my superiors ordered me to jump out of the window, I would not argue" -St. Pio
This is one thing I will disagree with this saint on.

We are not bound to orders from our superiors when they are to sin. An order to jump out of a window is an order to either cause serious bodily harm or death (suicide) unless you are on the first floor.
 
it seems odd that heretics like Hans Kung are given a slap on the wrist (he is still a Catholic priest in good standing; only his license to teach theology has been revoked).
The reason Fr Kung has not faced further sanctions is because unlike you (and no doubt many others) the church does not believe him to be a heretic. Not to be trusted as a teacher, yes. Heretic, no.

This is another aspect of the obedience to higher authority that we’re discussing here: accepting judgements different to the ones that we would make ourselves. Kung will be a heretic when the proper forum says he is, YT, not when you say so. 😉
 
Jumping out of the window would be a sin, Shoshana. It would be an act of deliberate self-harm, as surely as if the superior gave him a gun and asked him to shoot himself.

Staying in a cell when one would rather be out and about, however, is ‘merely’ a penance.

I think the saint was using hyperbole, and nothing wrong with that. Jesus often did the same in his preaching, too, so St Pio is in good company. 🙂
Code:
Unfortunately, this is the thinking of today. I stand by my statement. There have been many examples where our beloved saints were asked to do something that could easily have caused bodily damage, and they obeyed. and many times, no bodiliy harm happened because there was such obedience. Sometimes we surely are tested in our obeidence.

And sometimes God asks us to do something STUPID (apparently anyway) when Our Lady asked St Bernadette to scratch the mud and eat the grass in front of all the people. Ask me if that is not humiliating? She could have easily have gotten sick because she had bad asthma.

There are so many examples…read the lives of the saints and you will understand what I am trying to say.🙂
 
This is one thing I will disagree with this saint on.

We are not bound to orders from our superiors when they are to sin. An order to jump out of a window is an order to either cause serious bodily harm or death (suicide) unless you are on the first floor.
Code:
But you do not know that though…many saints have obeyed orders that defied any common sense but were blessed by God because of their obedience.
 
“This has been the practice since before the middle ages.”

This says it all. Brother JR summarizes some of the best reasons for not entering religious life. There is no process established in canon law for dismissal, of the type that is well established across the working world. No recourse, no trail, no feedback, no explanations. You enter, giving up many things, quitting a good job, selling a well-running car, giving up your cherished apartment, and enter religious life–in any form, then find out weeks/months/years and in the case of the Carthusian monk I described, decades later–are told to leave. You don’t have a vocation. You have issues–what issues? Issues. This sort of treatment has no parallel in the modern working world in the western hemisphere. Women’s religious communities, and I suspect many men’s communities also, appear to have well-established guidelines for formation, with a lot of supervision and feedback, which, however, appear to be optional, something that they have developed over the years, but which were not required.

The door swings both ways. Candidates can apparently go through formation with insufficient supervision and feedback such as what the OP may have received. I was appalled at the recent post by a religious who stated that it isn’t unusual for religious to leave after final profession. Apparently the superiors didn’t know their younger religious very well. They discovered that it is possible to walk away.

“Why are you leaving?”

“I changed my mind.”
Yes but you missed the caveat - unless they have vows. The Carthusians are a vowed Religious order. This is a major difference between someone in formation and someone who is vowed. There is also a difference between Secular Clergy and Religious Clergy.
 
It is the thinking of today that self-harm is a sin, yes. And the thinking of yesterday too. 🤷
Code:
Bro…you should know this. Saints do not worry about self-harm at all…and it is too bad that it is the thinking of yesterday. But then of course we see that kind of thinking all around us…the thinking of me, myself and I. Saints were so self-effacing and would do ANYTHING that was asked of them. And that is the problem today…obedience is only superficial and not enmeshed within us…like that obedience of St John of the Cross or Theresa of Avila practised…
 
Do you think he’d jump out the window?
He probably would.
  1. He could assume that his superior knows of a fire or poison gas that is about to enter the room, and for his safety, he has to jump out the window - and there is no time for his superior to give an explanation about the danger that is about to occur.
  2. There is a child on the ground below who is in need of immediate assistance, and again, there is no time for his superior to give a lengthy explanation of the situation.
So, out of obedience, and out of trust that his superior knows of a good reason for him to do so, and that God will not allow any harm to come to him as long as he is obedient to his superior, he would jump out the window.
 
He probably would.
  1. He could assume that his superior knows of a fire or poison gas that is about to enter the room, and for his safety, he has to jump out the window - and there is no time for his superior to give an explanation about the danger that is about to occur.
  2. There is a child on the ground below who is in need of immediate assistance, and again, there is no time for his superior to give a lengthy explanation of the situation.
So, out of obedience, and out of trust that his superior knows of a good reason for him to do so, and that God will not allow any harm to come to him as long as he is obedient to his superior, he would jump out the window.
I’ve seen that kind of discipline.
 
It seems to me that if ONE person not agreeing with him 100% is enough to make him leave the Church, they made the right decision. What would have happened if a parishioner didn’t like his homily? If a pastor corrected something he said or did?
And with that painful, insensitive, dismissive statement, ByzCath, you have pushed me away once and for all from the Roman Catholic Church. I may not have the right to ordination, but I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE REAL REASON WHY AND I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HEARD!

I am no longer a Roman Catholic.
 
It seems to me that if ONE person not agreeing with him 100% is enough to make him leave the Church, they made the right decision. What would have happened if a parishioner didn’t like his homily? If a pastor corrected something he said or did?
Excellent point. I was going to post something along those lines. Evidently, he wasn’t very far along in formation, that he could so easily leave the Church, and the Eucharist (Jesus!), and all the other Sacraments. They evidently saw through him to his real self. Pride goes before a fall, or so they say. Now, it is up to him to get back right with Christ and His Mystical Body, the Church. Rather than getting so upset, he should be relieved that he no longer has the obligation to follow what he “thought” was his vocation as a deacon. Now, he can be a normal, garden-variety lay person, and still serve Christ and His Church in that way.

We must always, always come as a servant. A servant does hard and dirty things. (Scrubs floors, cleans toilets, etc.) That is the essence of our earthly calling. To serve one another. If we are rejected in one area, then we should consider that the Lord doesn’t need us in that area and just move to another. But through it all, we continue to serve, and offer ourselves up.

We should pray, “Speak Lord, Your servant listens.” Not, “Listen Lord, Your servant speaks.”

🙂
 
The reason Fr Kung has not faced further sanctions is because unlike you (and no doubt many others) the church does not believe him to be a heretic. Not to be trusted as a teacher, yes. Heretic, no.

This is another aspect of the obedience to higher authority that we’re discussing here: accepting judgements different to the ones that we would make ourselves. Kung will be a heretic when the proper forum says he is, YT, not when you say so. 😉
I see.
 
“This has been the practice since before the middle ages.”

This says it all. Brother JR summarizes some of the best reasons for not entering religious life. There is no process established in canon law for dismissal, of the type that is well established across the working world. No recourse, no trail, no feedback, no explanations. You enter, giving up many things, quitting a good job, selling a well-running car, giving up your cherished apartment, and enter religious life–in any form, then find out weeks/months/years and in the case of the Carthusian monk I described, decades later–are told to leave. You don’t have a vocation. You have issues–what issues? Issues. This sort of treatment has no parallel in the modern working world in the western hemisphere. Women’s religious communities, and I suspect many men’s communities also, appear to have well-established guidelines for formation, with a lot of supervision and feedback, which, however, appear to be optional, something that they have developed over the years, but which were not required.

The door swings both ways. Candidates can apparently go through formation with insufficient supervision and feedback such as what the OP may have received. I was appalled at the recent post by a religious who stated that it isn’t unusual for religious to leave after final profession. Apparently the superiors didn’t know their younger religious very well. They discovered that it is possible to walk away.

“Why are you leaving?”

“I changed my mind.”
Thank you for the response, strgzr99. I realize all the above and that rules and regulations are important as guides and that applicants need to be fully aware of what they are doing when they enter religious life and if they are dismissed not of their own volition (which can occur at any point) what they may well be returning to on leaving the life and that may be well nigh nil having possibly sold everything needed for survival prior to entering. To my mind, rules and regulations are never ends in themselves which is the letter of the law, but rather enshrine or point towards as it were a spirit, or ideally so.
With all our rules and regulations there is also that commandment that Jesus left us with which overrides all “a new commandment I give to you, that you love one another” and that care and concern for a person who has left all for Christ perhaps in a special way needs to be present if a person is dismissed for some reason and by that I mean concern for their physical, emotional, mental and spiritual wellbeing. The rule of Charity stands prime above all to my mind. By the very same, a person who decides to leave the life for some reason especially after some years living the life, ideally needs to have care and concern for her fellow sisters and the community and the leadership of the community. This does not always occur, I realize, which does not make the situation rightful.

Undoubtedly those who dismiss and those who decide to leave may not have any concern for Charity and mutual care and concern for each other, but this does not, again, make the situation rightful. Because someone leaves without any concern whatsoever for anyone but herself, does not thereby give the community permission and make it rightful to act likewise towards those they dismiss.
Mark Chapter12 : [28] And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all. [29] And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. [30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
TS
 
Thank you for the response, strgzr99. I realize all the above and that rules and regulations are important as guides and that applicants need to be fully aware of what they are doing when they enter religious life and if they are dismissed not of their own volition (which can occur at any point) what they may well be returning to on leaving the life and that may be well nigh nil having possibly sold everything needed for survival prior to entering. To my mind, rules and regulations are never ends in themselves which is the letter of the law, but rather enshrine or point towards as it were a spirit, or ideally so.
With all our rules and regulations there is also that commandment that Jesus left us with which overrides all “a new commandment I give to you, that you love one another” and that care and concern for a person who has left all for Christ perhaps in a special way needs to be present if a person is dismissed for some reason and by that I mean concern for their physical, emotional, mental and spiritual wellbeing. The rule of Charity stands prime above all to my mind. By the very same, a person who decides to leave the life for some reason especially after some years living the life, ideally needs to have care and concern for her fellow sisters and the community and the leadership of the community. This does not always occur, I realize, which does not make the situation rightful.

Undoubtedly those who dismiss and those who decide to leave may not have any concern for Charity and mutual care and concern for each other, but this does not, again, make the situation rightful. Because someone leaves without any concern whatsoever for anyone but herself, does not thereby give the community permission and make it rightful to act likewise towards those they dismiss.

TS
Good show, Tigger.
 
“This has been the practice since before the middle ages.”

This says it all. Brother JR summarizes some of the best reasons for not entering religious life. There is no process established in canon law for dismissal, of the type that is well established across the working world.
Wait a minute. I believe that you’re taking my statement out of context. There is a difference between a person in formation and a professed religious or an ordained diocesan cleric. I made it clear in my post that there are appeals for professed religious and for the ordained.

As Brother (O’Carm) has said, Canon Law has very specific regulations for dismissal of all religious in perpetual vows and for the secular cleric.

What Canon Law does not provide for is the person in formation. It lists impediments to making vows or being ordained. The impediments themselves are reasons for dismissal. Aside from the impediments there is the discretion of either the major superior or the bishop, whichever is applicable. As to what information is shared and how it is shared, that’s going to vary from one diocese to another or from one religious institute to another. But we know this going in, provided that we have done our research.

When I entered, I signed a contract that said that if I were asked to leave, while in formation, the community would owe me nothing and I would owe it nothing. Having done formation work I have often found myself at a scrutinium where I have felt that a person is not called to our way of life, but I can’t put my finger on what it is that tells me this. I have to vote with my conscience in favor of the person. Therefore, I vote for dismissal. It is a greater act of charity to dismiss someone while in formation than to allow them to proceed to final vows or Holy Orders and then say, “Oops!” The soul of the person and of those around him are at stake here. A person can always reapply later. But once you have either made final vows or have been ordained, there is not easy solution for an “oops”.

As to a good reason for not entering religious life, I strongly disagree. I did not go to work for Microsoft. I embraced a way of life. I took it on its terms, not mine. It is very much like a marriage. The people entering into the bond must accept each other as they are. If either one places demands on the other as a condition for marriage, the validity of the bond is highly questionable. The bond of religious vows or the bond of Holy Orders can also be highly questionable if the person entering comes with conditions that if they are not met, he or she leaves.

Whether it is the consecrated life or the ordained ministry, it is what it is and it will always have an element of surprise. Some surprises are unpleasant. But the validity of the bond, in part rests, on the willingness to step into the Dark Night. One is willing to walk in faith, even when challenges happen.
“Why are you leaving?”
“I changed my mind.”
That’s fine if the person is in formation. If the person is ordained for a diocese or has made perpetual vows in a religious community, this may not fly and usually does not. The Holy See is very quick to refuse a dispensation on such trivial grounds. The person can still leave. In that case, he or she is a renegade and may even be excommunicated, if the conditions are right, such as attempting marriage. What usually happens with a renegade cleric or religious is that the Holy See will issue a decree of dismissal. This is usually after attempts are made to bring the person back into the fold and have failed. Canon Law describes the steps that must be taken and so do most constitutions.

While a decree of dismissal has the same effects as a dispensation, the person returns to life among the laity, there is a big difference. It’s the same difference between an honorable and dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces. The Church dismisses a renegade as an act of mercy. She has no moral obligation to do so. But she does it so that the person can return to the sacraments and not lose his or her soul. While you’re a renegade, you may not receive the sacraments. You’ve excommunicated yourself.

Leaving after perpetual vows or after ordination is not as easy as changing one’s mind. The petitioner has to convince the Church that there is a moral reason for leaving. In other words, you must convince the Church that either the vows or the ordination were invalid or that your soul is in great danger, because you cannot fulfill your obligations.

I will say this, it is easier to leave if you belong to a congregation than if you belong to an order. The vows of religious orders can only be dispensed for very grave reasons.

Regarding what one gives up, the Church is very clear that those who enter a religious community retain ownership of their assets until either a) they make solemn vows or b) the community requires that they assign ownership to someone else. Here again there is a difference between an order and a congregation, which we will not go into, because it’s off-topic. The point is that no one is asked to give up their assets or what they may inherit in the future until the last moment before you make perpetual vows.

While you’re in temporary vows, you’re asked to assign the administration of your assets to someone. It may never be the religious institute to which you belong. That creates a conflict of interest.
 
Do you think he’d jump out the window?
I don’t doubt you, but why?
I believe that I can answer this, since Padre Pio and I both profess obedience to the same Rule. St. Francis was very clear on the requirements of obedience. I believe that Padre Pio is referring to this. St. Francis demanded several things:

The friars are to obey him, without questioning him, even after his death, under pain of grave sin.

The friars may never disobey a canonical superior, even if the superior is mistaken, unless the superior asks the friar to commit a sin. Superiors do not have the authority to order a person to sin.

The friars are never free to decide what is or is not a sin. We must guide ourselves by what the Church identifies as a sin. Therefore, the friars must have a well-formed conscience. A well-formed conscience is one that is in harmony with the Church.

The friars may never question the judgment of the hierarchy, except in those matters that the law allows them to do so. That’s going to be defined by Canon Law.

The friars must also obey each other when the community speaks as one voice through the chapter. This includes the superior as well. He must obey the chapter. However, the chapter can never demand anything that is contrary to the Gospel, Church Law, the mind of the pope, and finally, the mind of Francis.

What we are seeing here is Padre Pio stressing the significance that the Franciscan rule places on obedience. Rather than explain everything that I just explained, he says it in simple words. If you have no reason to disobey, then you jump. Disagreeing or having a better idea is not a good enough reason. Francis would not tolerate this. In Franciscan theology, the obedience of Christ to the Father was withour murmurring, without judgment, and without reservations. This is what Padre Pio is trying to drive home. True obedience has no reservations. It is also common sense, that the window was for the sake of emphasis, because Padre Pio knew that no sane superior would ask him to jump out of a window, unless there’s a fire. 😃

I have been a superior and I have asked people to do things that they find very unpleasant. I’ve also asked them to do things that they thought could be done better or differently. That’s not the question or the point on the table. When we ask someone to do something or to stop, we are not asking them, “What do you think?” We are saying, “Jump,” as Padre Pio is saying. There have been times when I have had doubts about either A or B and have asked friars, would you rather do A or B. Have I always been right? No. Did I have the right to ask? Yes. I acted on the knowledge that I had at the time.

The good or bad part about being a superior is that most superiors have term limits. Superiors also have superiors. Superiors general have the chapter and constitution. You also have to obey. It’s not a monarchy. It’s a family.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe that I can answer this, since Padre Pio and I both profess obedience to the same Rule. St. Francis was very clear on the requirements of obedience. I believe that Padre Pio is referring to this. St. Francis demanded several things:

The friars are to obey him, without questioning him, even after his death, under pain of grave sin.

The friars may never disobey a canonical superior, even if the superior is mistaken, unless the superior asks the friar to commit a sin. Superiors do not have the authority to order a person to sin.

The friars are never free to decide what is or is not a sin. We must guide ourselves by what the Church identifies as a sin. Therefore, the friars must have a well-formed conscience. A well-formed conscience is one that is in harmony with the Church.

The friars may never question the judgment of the hierarchy, except in those matters that the law allows them to do so. That’s going to be defined by Canon Law.

The friars must also obey each other when the community speaks as one voice through the chapter. This includes the superior as well. He must obey the chapter. However, the chapter can never demand anything that is contrary to the Gospel, Church Law, the mind of the pope, and finally, the mind of Francis.

What we are seeing here is Padre Pio stressing the significance that the Franciscan rule places on obedience. Rather than explain everything that I just explained, he says it in simple words. If you have no reason to disobey, then you jump. Disagreeing or having a better idea is not a good enough reason. Francis would not tolerate this. In Franciscan theology, the obedience of Christ to the Father was withour murmurring, without judgment, and without reservations. This is what Padre Pio is trying to drive home. True obedience has no reservations. It is also common sense, that the window was for the sake of emphasis, because Padre Pio knew that no sane superior would ask him to jump out of a window, unless there’s a fire. 😃

I have been a superior and I have asked people to do things that they find very unpleasant. I’ve also asked them to do things that they thought could be done better or differently. That’s not the question or the point on the table. When we ask someone to do something or to stop, we are not asking them, “What do you think?” We are saying, “Jump,” as Padre Pio is saying. There have been times when I have had doubts about either A or B and have asked friars, would you rather do A or B. Have I always been right? No. Did I have the right to ask? Yes. I acted on the knowledge that I had at the time.

The good or bad part about being a superior is that most superiors have term limits. Superiors also have superiors. Superiors general have the chapter and constitution. You also have to obey. It’s not a monarchy. It’s a family.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother, I remember one story of St Francis sending one Brother out to teach without his robes (leaving him practically if not fully nude - I would appreciate clarification here) as penance for an action. The Brother went off and did it out of Obedience. St Francis realizing what harsh penance he had just dealt out went after the Brother and preached with him the same way so that the Brother would not look crazy or alone. The story came to mind as an example of how far the obedience goes.
 
I am glad that there appear to be processes place for dismissal of candidates from formation. I hope that these processes include close supervision and feedback, especially if there are recurring problems, which, if not corrected, could lead to dismissal. I agree that dismissal sooner is (a lot) better than later. agree that no one has the* right *to become a religious of any kind in any institute. I also agree that we don’t know what happened in this particular instance.

Modern women’s communitites do not encourage blind obedience. I remember reading some years ago about the Maryknoll missionary sisters’ response to questions about encouraging blind obedience in the novitiate by commanding novices to do silly pointless things, that Maryknoll was teaching its candidates to be responsible thinking missioners, not unthinking automatons.

I was under the impression that once one was baptized one is a member of the Catholic church. Ie Anglican baptized converts don’t have to be re-baptized. Benedictine said that he was leaving the "Roman" Catholic church.

JR, you say that ''You also have to obey. It’s not a monarchy. It’s a family."

It sounds like a monarchy.
 
I am glad that there appear to be processes place for dismissal of candidates from formation.
That is not what I said. I said there are processes to dismiss those who have made perpetual vows. If they are diocesan clergy, there are processes for them too.

As far as those who are in formation, there are no prescribed processes. There are impediments. These are not the same as processes. An impediment can be: you’re divorced, mental health, physical health, have not been living a celibate life long enough, age.

Processes are left up to each diocese and each religious institute to decide that for themselves. There is a scrutinium when the person is up for renewing vows, if he or she is a religious. The community meets, discusses the person’s fitness, votes and the result is sent to the major superior. The major superior then decides what to do. The decision is his alone, unless he delegates it to someone else. If you belong to a diocese, the result of the scrutinium is sent to the bishop. He alone decides or can delegate it.
Modern women’s communitites do not encourage blind obedience. I remember reading some years ago about the Maryknoll missionary sisters’ response to questions about encouraging blind obedience in the novitiate by commanding novices to do silly pointless things, that Maryknoll was teaching its candidates to be responsible thinking missioners, not unthinking automatons.
That’s not quite true. This depends on the religious community and the rule they follow. If the rule demands blind obedience, then it is so.

The Maryknoll Sisters and many other communities of siters are in a very unique position. They DO NOT HAVE A RULE OF LIFE. They are governed by constitutions that they write, they vote on and they can change at any time, with the approval of the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

Orders, HAVE A RULE OF LIFE. They cannot change the rule. They must obey it as it is. They can only write statutes or constitutions to address points that are not addressed in the rule. If the rule says that they must obey blindly, they are bound, under pain of very grave sin, to do so. It’s up to what the founder put into the rule.

For example, Benedict and Francis both put into their rules that obedience is absolute, unquestioning and without regrets. There is no room for negotiating once an order is given, no matter how silly it may sound.

This does not make us “unthinking automatons”. We are very cognizant of what we’re doing. In my case (as a member of the Franciscan family), I am aware that I am obeying Francis, because he is the master on the Gospel Life. When I obey, even the silliest command, I do think about Christ’s obedience, because this is what the rule commands me to think about. This is what I promised to do until death. If I find myself in an internal conflict, I know that the problem is not with the order that the superior has given me, the problem is within me. I have not become detached from my own point of view, my deisres, my opinions, my goals, my sense of self-importance. You may want to read what Fr. Vincent wrote in Ask An Apologist about obedience.
I was under the impression that once one was baptized one is a member of the Catholic church. Ie Anglican baptized converts don’t have to be re-baptized. Benedictine said that he was leaving the "Roman" Catholic church.
There is only one baptism. Everyone who is validly baptized is a member of the Church. However, not every baptized person is a member of the physical Church.
JR, you say that ''You also have to obey. It’s not a monarchy. It’s a family."
It sounds like a monarchy.
In a monarchy, the monarch has no one over him. In religious life, the superior has a superior. The Superior General has the brothers or sisters who decide in a chapter what he must do and how he must do it. He also has Church law that he must obey. In addition, he is in office for a few years and then returns to the rank and file. A monarch does not become a peasant.

In the diocesan priesthood, the bishop is under the authority of the pope. Eventually, he must retire. Also, the pope can transfer him to another diocese or to the Roman Curia. You don’t retire monarchs or reasign them to different posts. Again, they have no one above them.

It is very much a family, where everyone has a role, rights and duties. Because most sisters DO NOT belong to religious orders, they do not have a rule. This does not make them modern. It makes them a congregation, which means that Church law allows them more flexibility. But the Church still has to approve their constitutions. If the constitutions say that the superior can ask you to stand on your head and the Holy See approves it, then you must stand on your head when asked to do so. If the constitution says that the superior must ask your opinion on things, then he or she must do that. But there is always someone who is bound to absolute obedience.

What has happened in some communities of women is that they have deviated to the point where they have become democracies instead of families with an authority figure. This is why they are under investigation. That’s not allowed. There must always be an authority figure. The founder decides who that is to be.

I call these, well organized families where there are clear lines of authority and clear limits

The only monarch is the pope himself.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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