Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[montanaman]

So, I’m a swine, huh? I read where someone on this forum said that when someone resorts to insults, it is because they are losing the argument. Calling me a swine sure resembles an insult to me.

Further, swine may not value or appreciate pearls, but I have not seen them pray to Mary either. Maybe I am in good company with the swine after all.

It’s just an expression, but like you always do, take it however you like. You’ve shown zero interest in discussion here, and the way you twist out of arguments, ignore others, change the subject, and serially misstate Catholic beliefs after correction shows that you just don’t care. And, now it seems that you don’t believe the Bible is inerrant, so, what’s your point? Arguing just to argue? Why waste either your time or ours?

 

[montanaman]

Millenium,

Not that kind of forum, bud. Find a different place for juvenile sacrilege.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Pax:

The gospel of Luke is the inspired word of God and it contains no errors. It doesn’t matter that Mary, herself, said the words quoted above. She spoke the truth. Your line of reasoning simply doesn’t refute truth or the inspired word of God.

Not so. Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible never claims to be the Word of God. I have not seen where the Bible claims to be error free either.

Pax:

The Catholic church has always made the appropriate distinctions when it comes to such ideas as they apply to the saints, Mary, and to God. The Church uses the Latin terms dulia, hyper-dulia, and latria for this purpose. Dulia is the kind of respect and veneration shown to our parents and extended in a higher degree to the saints. Hyper-dulia is the level of respect and veneration for Mary, while latria is the worship reserved solely for God. I hope this helps.

Is Mary the only one who is venerated at the hyper-dulia level? If so, why have a separate level? When did Mary attain this level? I never said that you venerated Mary at the same level as God. But to venerate her above that which you would give any other righteous man still appears to be as a type of idolatry.

You keep trying to get me to understand where you are coming from with your beliefs. But you do not try to see this whole veneration of Mary business from where I am standing. You quote statements that Mary made about herself as if God made them Himself. You have not shown me that I can really obtain more mercy by asking Mary to pray for me than I could obtain on my own. I ask questions, and you do not answer them. Perhaps, you do not know how to answer my questions.

 

[jimmy]

rod of iron:

Again, these are things that Mary says about herself. If you or I were to say that God has blessed us and that all nations throughout all generations would call us blessed, could we expect that anyone who reads our claim would then pray to us and call us blessed? Mary made claims, and the Catholic church has done its best to fulfill her claims. This is similar to a self-fulfilling prophesy. Mary made a claim and the Catholic church has fulfilled it.

It doesn’t matter who said it. The fact that it is said in the bible makes it a significant statement. If it was not important then it would not have been included in the bible. Elizabeth also calls her blessed among women twice while speaking with the Holy Spirit. You fail to notice that. This is in the part where John the baptist jumps for joy in her womb when she hears Mary’s voice.

This type of fulfilling of a claim is seen also in the LDS church, where one of the early leaders of the LDS church after Joseph Smith’s death made the claim that LDS temples would dot the face of the earth. This leader made the claim, and the LDS church has fulfilled this claim by building over 100 LDS temples around the world. Was this leader any more of a prophet than Mary was when she claimed that all generations would call her blessed? Not as far as I’m concerned.

100 hundred, wow that is amazing, that completely covers the earth. The Catholic Church only has probably a million churches for its billion members.

Obviously, this is a matter of pragmatics. What I see as a form of worship is not seen as worship to you. I do not believe that anyone who has died is worth more than anyone on Earth, including you and me. I do not believe in exaltation. The Catholic church seems to believe that through their works, members can be exalted unto a level called Sainthood, which everyone on Earth looks up to. The Mormons go a step farther and believe that their members can be exalted unto a level of godhood. But I do not see where either of these levels exists. I see worship as holding up a person or thing as greater than yourself and showing devotion, veneration, or adoration toward that person or thing that you have lifted up. I classify all this under worship. If you do not, then that is your choice. I will not hold up another human being as greater than me except for Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh. I will not hold up anyone else in veneration, devotion, or adoration, including Joseph Smith.

OK, thanks for the definition Webster but the people in Heaven are greater than us. They have been made perfect by the Lord. You can not enter Heaven unless you are perfect. If you look at the following verse you can see that you are wrong.

11 Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11;11

In other words the least in Heaven is greater than the greatest on earth.

When I looked up venerate in the dictionary, one of the definitions is: “To regard with great awe and devotion.” One of the synonyms in the Thesaurus is: **“worship.” **I still believe that lifting anyone above yourself is a form of worship.

Honor is not worship. Do you worship the president? Do you worship the minister of your church? Both of these are probably placed higher than you.

 

[rod_of_iron]

montanaman:

It’s just an expression, but like you always do, take it however you like. You’ve shown zero interest in discussion here, and the way you twist out of arguments, ignore others, change the subject, and serially misstate Catholic beliefs after correction shows that you just don’t care. And, now it seems that you don’t believe the Bible is inerrant, so, what’s your point? Arguing just to argue? Why waste either your time or ours?

Is responding to you just a waste of time? The expression you used was much more than just an expression. It showed the lack of love you have within your being. Calling me a swine is just the easy way out. It also shows how arrogant you must be to suggest that I am not worthy of the pearls you think you are throwing out to me.

 

[jimmy]

rod of iron:

How do any of these scriptures answer my questions? I never said that we wouldn’t be rewarded after death if we went to heaven. But a reward is not necessarily the same thing as being exalted to a higher position or level than others. If you believe that the 12 apostles are lifted up, why don’t you pray to them? Your reference does not mention that Mary has a throne. Why didn’t she get one?

You do not understand what a saint is. A saint is any holy person in Heaven. They aren’t necisarily raised up. They are just holy and filled with Gods grace.

 

[jimmy]

MilleniumManY2J:

Why do people worship someone who got f***ed by god? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Watch your language boy. This is not the place for the critcism and all that.

 

[jimmy]

rod of iron:

Inerrant? God-breathed? You sound as if you are trying to deify the Bible. You put it beyond reproach. How could corruptible mankind write a book that couldn’t possibly have any errors in it? You act as if God dropped the books of the Bible from the sky already written. Not everything in the Bible is revelatory. The history of the Jews as found in the Bible was not given by revelation. That history was recorded by men as they witnessed events or as it was handed down to them by oral tradition. There is no guarantee that these men got every detail perfectly correct, especially when passing down history by oral tradition. I believe that the Bible is reliable, but not inerrant. The Bible does not even claim to be inerrant.

So the bible is falible but we are are only allowed to teach from the bible and have no oral tradition according to you. That makes a ton of sense.

 

[rod_of_iron]

jimmy:

It doesn’t matter who said it. The fact that it is said in the bible makes it a significant statement. If it was not important then it would not have been included in the bible. Elizabeth also calls her blessed among women twice while speaking with the Holy Spirit. You fail to notice that. This is in the part where John the baptist jumps for joy in her womb when she hears Mary’s voice.

You believe that anything in the Bible is automatically significant because your church decided it was significant. But how did the Catholic church know what was significant and what wasn’t? Did the pope at that time receive revelation from God to tell him what was significant? I thought that the pope was not a prophet. It doesn’t matter if Mary made the claim or Elizabeth did, neither were God or an angel sent by God. Jesus never calls Mary blessed as far as I have seen in the Bible.

jimmy:

100 hundred, wow that is amazing, that completely covers the earth. The Catholic Church only has probably a million churches for its billion members.

You missed my point. I was not trying to impress you with how many temples the LDS church has built. Instead, I was showing how people can fulfill the claim of someone in the past, just as the Catholic church has fulfilled the claim of Mary. Neither case is a prophecy being fulfilled, because in both cases the ones fulfilling the claim had a selfish interest in having it fulfilled.

jimmy:

Honor is not worship. Do you worship the president? Do you worship the minister of your church? Both of these are probably placed higher than you.

Maybe honor is not worship in the beginning, but if you continue to hold a person us as greater than you, honor becomes worship. Neither the president or a minister is higher than me. All of us put our pants on one leg at a time. The president votes just like I do. He is an elected official. But he is just human.

 

[rod_of_iron]

jimmy:

You do not understand what a saint is. A saint is any holy person in Heaven. They aren’t necisarily raised up. They are just holy and filled with Gods grace.

I question whether you know what a saint is. A saint is a believer in Jesus Christ who has entered into a covenant relationship with Him. It does not matter whether that person is in heaven or on Earth. I am a saint. Are you?