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jimmy
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rod of iron:
He honored her when he made her his mother. He honored her when he changed the water to wine.
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rod_of_iron
Guest
Hans A.:
Hans A.:
Hans A.:
No, I don’t subscribe to “once saved, always saved”. If a Christian blasphemes against the Holy Spirit once it has place in him, he will fall, and there will be no more forgiveness for that person. If there was, Christ would have to be crucified again. A second crucifixion would be such a tremendous mockery of God. But I do not believe that certain people in heaven have any special avenue with God and can persuade God in any way. God is perfect, and He has no need of counsel from anyone or anything He has created. I don’t need Mary or any of these other saints to ask God to have mercy upon me. They cannot obtain mercy for me. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone can obtain mercy for me, except me. I must humble myself and ask God myself for mercy, and so do you. I believe that I have a direct line of communication open to God. My salvation is between me and my Savior. God created all people equal in His sight. Why would I pray to someone who was not created any better than myself?
Hans A.:
Sinless womb? If Mary was sinless, how could Jesus be tempted by sin and overcome it, if He couldn’t have fallen to temptation? If Mary was sinless, she had no need of salvation or the saving grace of Jesus Christ. This would make her equal to Jesus and would not make her human. Do you want to suggest that Mary’s sinful parents could have had a sinless baby? If you believe that Mary could not have had the sinless Jesus without being sinless herself, then she could not have been sinless without her parents being sinless. This sinlessness would have to go back to the beginning with Eve giving birth to Mary’s ancestor before Eve ate from the tree of good and evil. How can a sinless baby come from sinful parents unless that baby is a god, rather than human? Jesus was able to remain sinless because He was God in the flesh. Mary would have to be a god in the flesh in order to also remain sinless.
Hans A.:
Mortal sins? Where does such a category exist with sins? I cannot find such a category in the Bible. Did Jesus not know about these particular type of sins?
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jimmy
Guest
rod of iron:
So you believe that if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit then you are going to Hell no matter what.
Jesus had free will therefore he could be tempted. Adam and Eve were made without sin but they still sinned. As long as man has free will they will be temped.
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rod_of_iron
Guest
But how would this be an everlasting honor? Jesus was born of Mary (past tense). Mary is not still bearing Jesus as a baby every day of our lives. How did Jesus show that honor? Did He give her a medal or a trophy? When I think of honor, I think of something that is done at that moment. When a sports figure is honored, he or she is honored by receiving a trophy. When an Olympian is honored, he or she receives a medal. When other people are honored, they might appear on the headline news on television, or have an article written about them in the newspaper. But after they are honored, they move on with their life, and so do all those who witnessed this honor given to that person. Yet, you want me to believe that Mary’s honor is continual and ongoing. When you honor someone in this fashion, you are now worshipping them. You may claim that you do not worship Mary, yet if you continue to praise her and lift her up for something she did 2000 years ago, this honor has turned into worship, plain and simple.
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Pax
Guest
rod of iron:
I will address, however, the point about mortal sin. You contend that nowhere in scripture is there a reference to mortal sins. If you check 1 John 5:16 you will read, “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” This is from the RSV (non-Catholic bible).
The Kings James version reads this way, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” Other translations use the word “deadly” in the place of the term “mortal.” In any event, the term and concept is clearly expressed in scripture. Besides, everyone know that there is a difference in degree of sin. Obviously, no one’s going to hell for insulting someone’s haircut, but scripture tells us numerous times that fornicators, adulterers, and murderers have no place in the kingdom of God.
I believe that all of your points concerning Mary’s need of salvation and her sinlessness were answered in earlier posts or in another thread. I see no point in revisiting this for purposes of simply repeating what has already been said.
I will address, however, the point about mortal sin. You contend that nowhere in scripture is there a reference to mortal sins. If you check 1 John 5:16 you will read, “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” This is from the RSV (non-Catholic bible).
The Kings James version reads this way, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” Other translations use the word “deadly” in the place of the term “mortal.” In any event, the term and concept is clearly expressed in scripture. Besides, everyone know that there is a difference in degree of sin. Obviously, no one’s going to hell for insulting someone’s haircut, but scripture tells us numerous times that fornicators, adulterers, and murderers have no place in the kingdom of God.
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rod_of_iron
Guest
Yes. That is the only unforgiveable sin. This is clearly stated in Matthew 12:31-32 – **“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
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Could Mary be tempted? If she could never give in to temptation, the devil would not have bothered with her or tempt her. According to the Bible, the only one mentioned who was “without sin” was Jesus. Mary is not mentioned as being “without sin”. Neither does the Bible equate being “full of grace” with being “without sin”. This is just an interpretation that the Catholic church has fathomed.
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Pax
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rod of iron:
No one has suggested that Mary could not be tempted. Mary was simply free from original sin, and therefore would not have the same inclination to sin that we have. Like Adam and Eve, and even Jesus, she could have external temptations. You contend that being full of grace does not mean being “without sin.” You contend that this is merely an interpretation of the Catholic church. It is an interpretation of the ancient and historical church which is considerably more dependable than any other modern exegetical suggestion to the contrary. As I have stated before, even Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli held to the Catholic understandings of Mary. Only later Protestants, empowered by Sola Scriptura, decided on differing interpretations. Today, scriptural interpretation in Protestant circles is almost completely up for grabs on nearly every issue. We have here, a detiorating devolving of scriptural truth and tradition.
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rod_of_iron
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Are you saying that insulting someone’s haircut is a sin? It appears that Catholics like to create all kinds of sins that its members can try to avoid. It would seem that the Catholic church is very much like the Pharisees of old.
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Pax
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rod of iron:
Jesus told us to love one another as ourselves. Yes, it is sinful in some way, however mildly, to insult another person. Insults hurt people’s feelings, and to do so breaks the second great commandment. If you do not believe this then you are simply being unreasonable.
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jimmy
Guest
rod of iron:
Athletes are honored for longer than just one year or ten years. What do you think the Hall of Fame for each sport does. It honors them. It does not worship them. The athletes in the hall of fame will always be there.
This whole post is incorrect. Mary is still the mother of Jesus(God) and she will always be the mother of Jesus (God). That honor will never end. And as the mother of our lord whe is also the mother of us we honor her.
Athletes are honored for longer than just one year or ten years. What do you think the Hall of Fame for each sport does. It honors them. It does not worship them. The athletes in the hall of fame will always be there.
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jimmy
Guest
rod of iron:
catholicapologetics.net/apolo_92.htm
catholicapologetics.net/apolo_93.htm
Do you know what a sin against the Holy Spirit is? It is the refusal to ask for forgiveness or to think you can not be forgiven. What if you refuse to ask forgiveness or you don’t think you can be forgiven for the fist 20 years of your life but then you change and now you believe you can be forgiven and you ask forgiveness?
Gods grace is what keeps you from sin and makes you want to do Gods will. She could have been tempted but she was given the grace of God to decide not to sin and to stay in Gods grace. You can not be full of Gods grace and have sin on your soul. You can not have more grace than being full of it.
catholicapologetics.net/apolo_92.htm
catholicapologetics.net/apolo_93.htm
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SPH1
Guest
With this type of Protestant - ex-Catholic, vehemetly anti-Catholic - you can’t. However, we may be able to positively influence the remainder of the audience.
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jimmy
Guest
rod of iron:
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this. 1 John 5:16
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:17
No that is not what he said. He just says there are degrees of sin. You probably won’t go to Hell for telling your wife she looks good when really she looks bad(any lie is a sin). It even says in the bible that there is sin not unto death.
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this. 1 John 5:16
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:17
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mark_a
Guest
You guys have no business insulting anyone’s mother. I don’t know about y’all, but in the south the ultimate insult is one hurled at your mother. Them’s fightin’ words!!! I bet Jesus feels the same way. Shame on you.
Mary’s job was harder than any of the Apostles and Martyrs. She, like any Mother, would have given her own life for her Son. Instead she had to stand by and watch the most painful, disgusting, humiliating public death imaginable.
Mary’s job was harder than any of the Apostles and Martyrs. She, like any Mother, would have given her own life for her Son. Instead she had to stand by and watch the most painful, disgusting, humiliating public death imaginable.
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Hans_A
Guest
rod of iron:
Mary like all of us needed the redemption purchased by Christ. The best analogy I have seen that other’s have presented (I’m sorry that I am not able to reference them properly) is the following:
If you fall into a pit and someone comes by and gets you out, they have saved you.
If as you are about to fall into the pit, someone grabs you and prevents your fall, they have saved you.
In Christ,
Hans
rod of iron, yes we do have a direct communication between us and God; however, our prayers are nowhere close to perfect due to our refusal to let go of “love of self”. Those that have gone to heaven are full of love for God, to the extent that they have the capacity for. Mary and the Saints possess the greatest capacity so theirs are the most perfect of any human, outside of Jesus. Tell me how their prayers for us **cannot ** benefit! We are all members of the Mystical Body of Christ. What harmful thing happens to one, happens to all. Likewise what good happens to one, happens to all.
Mary like all of us needed the redemption purchased by Christ. The best analogy I have seen that other’s have presented (I’m sorry that I am not able to reference them properly) is the following:
If you fall into a pit and someone comes by and gets you out, they have saved you.
If as you are about to fall into the pit, someone grabs you and prevents your fall, they have saved you.
In Christ,
Hans
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rod_of_iron
Guest
Perhaps all my points were responded to, but they were not legitimately answered to my satisfaction. I am seeing why Catholics believe as they do, but I do not see why a true disciple of Christ would need to follow all these doctrines and beliefs that the Catholic church espouses.
How do you see Jesus? Is He unreachable or unapproachable without going through Mary? Does Mary act as a similitude of the high priests of the Old Testaments when they would enter the Holy of Holies to commune with God? Do you believe that the veil was not rent in twain, and you must approach God through Mary? I don’t understand the indispensibility of Mary, despite the fact that she carried Jesus in her womb and gave birth to Him. It would seem that her honor would have ceased after giving birth to Jesus.
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rod_of_iron
Guest
God, who was not created and is everlasting, has an everlasting mother name Mary, who He created??? It does not make sense.
Do you believe that Jesus existed before He came to Earth in the flesh? If you do, then did Jesus have a mother before Mary was created in the flesh?
Do you believe that Mary, along with all other humans, was created spiritually in the beginning, before she was created spiritually? If not, when was she created?
Athletes do not get into the Hall of Fame for just one great event or action. The athletes that get into the Hall of Fame have spent a considerable time improving their sport and making spectacular plays. They get into the Hall of Fame because of numerous great achievements that they have brought to the sport.
But you would have us believe that just because Mary gave birth to Jesus, we should hold her up above all other humans and honor her over and over for this one event? Yes, I believe that event was significant and needed to happen in order for the much greater events to occur, namely the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You still have not shown me where Jesus pointed back in time, and said, “Look at my birth! Wasn’t that something?” Instead, Jesus pointed at the cross and His resurrection, and spoke of it as the greatest event that would occur. Only one of the gospels speak of Mary being at the foot of the cross. That gospel is John’s.
Although Catholics believe that Mary walked along with Jesus at least part of the way to His crucifixion, the Bible does not support it. I have seen the movie, “The Passion of the Christ”, and at least half of the movie is not Biblical or supported by scripture, especially all the added actions of Mary found in the movie.
I still don’t think that Catholics feel they can approach God and obtain mercy from Him without Mary being the middleman.
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Jennifer123
Guest
rod of iron:
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Pax
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rod of iron:
Rod, what you seem to be missing is a grander and more beautiful view of the economy of scripture. Mary says in Luke 1:46-49, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” This is what Mary is all about as the mother of Jesus, and it is truly beautiful to behold.
You accuse us wrongly, of essentially worshipping Mary. To even suggest something along this line is to not understand Catholic teaching at all. You ask how we view Jesus. Well, He is our God, He is our Lord and Savior. Jesus is the perfect offering refered to in the prophecy of Malachi 1:11where it says, " For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts."
If you understand Catholic teaching and worship at all, then you know that Catholics believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest possible form of worship given to God. This is because we are able through the power of the Holy Spirit to represent the once for all eternal offering of Jesus to the Father. Now if we offered the Mass to Mary that would be idolatry and that would be putting her equal to God. That would be completely against everything we understand about God and the worship due Him alone. Make no mistake about it. We give everything of ourselves in union with Jesus when we celebrate Mass. It is from East to West the perfect offering.
Again, you are putting words in the mouths of others and the teachings of their church. After all of the posts made in this thread, you should know better. No one has in any way suggested that Jesus is unapproachable without going through Mary. Therefore, you should stop making such shallow remarks. Even your last remark that “…her honor would have ceased after giving birth to Jesus” has been answered in another individual’s post, yet you persist. I’ll give you credit for perseverence, but you have ignored the beautiful work of Christ in Mary. All is from God, and no one who has responded to you has said otherwise.
Rod, what you seem to be missing is a grander and more beautiful view of the economy of scripture. Mary says in Luke 1:46-49, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” This is what Mary is all about as the mother of Jesus, and it is truly beautiful to behold.
You accuse us wrongly, of essentially worshipping Mary. To even suggest something along this line is to not understand Catholic teaching at all. You ask how we view Jesus. Well, He is our God, He is our Lord and Savior. Jesus is the perfect offering refered to in the prophecy of Malachi 1:11where it says, " For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts."
If you understand Catholic teaching and worship at all, then you know that Catholics believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest possible form of worship given to God. This is because we are able through the power of the Holy Spirit to represent the once for all eternal offering of Jesus to the Father. Now if we offered the Mass to Mary that would be idolatry and that would be putting her equal to God. That would be completely against everything we understand about God and the worship due Him alone. Make no mistake about it. We give everything of ourselves in union with Jesus when we celebrate Mass. It is from East to West the perfect offering.
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jimmy
Guest
rod of iron:
I don’t know what your second question is supposed to mean.
Read the Gospels, Mary was at the foot of the cross with the disciple Jesus loved.
What was Mel Gibson Suposed to do, make a five minute movie that shows almost nothing? The movie did not go against scripture at all. It seems that you would prefer Mary not to be with Jesus when he is being tortured because that would make it alot easier for you not to honor her. Any mother would have been there to be with her son, let alone Mary “Full of Grace”…
It doesn’t matter if he existed before the earth was made. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. He created her to be his mother and that is how it is going to stay. You can’t change that.
I don’t know what your second question is supposed to mean.
Mary spent a whole lifetime being Jesus’s mother and she will spend eternity being his mother. Giving birth to Jesus was the greatest thing any human has done, other than what Jesus has done. That is alot more than any athlete has ever done.
Read the Gospels, Mary was at the foot of the cross with the disciple Jesus loved.
What was Mel Gibson Suposed to do, make a five minute movie that shows almost nothing? The movie did not go against scripture at all. It seems that you would prefer Mary not to be with Jesus when he is being tortured because that would make it alot easier for you not to honor her. Any mother would have been there to be with her son, let alone Mary “Full of Grace”…
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