Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[CD4]

**Just want to say that one of the best talks about Mary, and study of the Magnificat was given by the Sunday School teacher of a class my husband and I attend at his Evangelical church (Church of Christ). It was wonderful! **

 

[mrS4ntA]

rod of iron:

The way this reads, it would seem that Mary has changed into God. This idea is foreign to the Bible.

This is just the concept of the “deification of man” – where when man dies and enters Heaven, he is unified with God and lifted so high that he is like the Creator.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Hans A.:

John was not Jesus’ brother, Mary was ever virgin. Concerning John 19:26-27:

I guess I was mistaken. John was not Jesus’ biological brother. But in Mark 6:3, it says, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.” According to this verse, Jesus had 4 brothers. I am sure that you will try to explain that these were just cousins, because supposedly the same Hebrew word can mean “brother” and “cousin”, but you must look at the context of the verse. The mention of Jesus’ brothers immediately follows the mention of His mother. If these four brothers mentioned in this verse were Jesus’ cousins, why were they mentioned right after His mother, without the parents of these brothers mentioned? Who were their parents? Also in this verse, Jesus has sisters, although we do not know how many or what their names were. But if you disagree, can you prove that Mary is **always **a virgin? I have not found that stated anywhere in the Bible.

Further, in Matthew 27:56, Mary is identified as the mother of James and Joses. The verse reads: “Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.” James and Joses were mentioned in the other verse I quoted. Now this would seem to prove that Jesus’ mother was also the mother of James and Joses at the very least. She is said to be also the mother of Juda and Simon in the first verse I quoted. I don’t see where there can be any doubt that Mary bore children after she bore Jesus. In Mark 15:40,47, Mary is spoken of being the mother of James and Joses, too. Luke 24:10 further mentions Mary as being the mother of James. What doubt can there be?
Hans A.:

The only other time where Jesus used “Woman” in the bible when talking to his mother was at the wedding at Cana. Jesus gives his mother to us while she weeps at the foot of the cross along with St. John.

John 19 is the only chapter in the gospels that speaks of Mary being at the cross. Jesus, when He said, “Behold your son!” and “Behold your mother!”, He was just telling John that John was now responsible for taking care of Jesus’ mother. Any more than that is just speculation. To say that Jesus at that time gave His mother to all of humanity is just wishful thinking. Such a concept is not stated in any way in John 19.

(continued …)

 

[rod_of_iron]

Hans A.:

Would you not ask your own mother to pray for you to the Lord our God?

Sure, if I had health concerns or other problems.
Hans A.:

Is she able to pray to the Lord 24hrs a day, 7 days a week? Are you able to? Then wouldn’t it benefit you even more to ask Jesus’ own mother to pray for you?

Praying all the time does not guarantee that God will do something any more than if you only prayed once. It would seem that if you feel you must pray continually, you do not trust God to hear you or answer you with a “yes”. How long do you believe you must pray before God will respond? God’s answering of your prayers does not depend upon how long you continue to pray to Him. Instead, God answers prayers based on your level of faith. If your faith is great, you will only have to pray once and God will respond if it is His will that you have what you are praying for. But if you lack faith, you can have everyone you know and all the saints in heaven praying for you, and it will avail you nothing, because you lack faith. God responds to faith, not to how long you pray to Him.
Hans A.:

Jesus is our King; therefore, Mary is the King’s mother. In the OT, the king does not deny his mother’s requests. Henceforth, Jesus will not deny Mary her requests.

But Jesus is more than just physical. Mary is just the mother of Jesus in the flesh. She is not the spiritual mother of God. God did not procreate with Mary to have Jesus. There is no evidence that after you die, there will be the same type of relationship between people that there was on Earth. There is no guarantee that your mother and your father will be your mother and father in heaven. There is no evidence that you will have a mother and father or brothers or sisters in heaven. Just because Mary was Jesus’ mother while upon the Earth, it does not mean that she is His mother in heaven. That is wishful thinking without any Biblical support for such a concept.

 

[rod_of_iron]

mrS4ntA:

This is just the concept of the “deification of man” – where when man dies and enters Heaven, he is unified with God and lifted so high that he is like the Creator.

But it is unbiblical.

 

[Pax]

rod of iron,

You question the reasons for intercessory pray by Mary and the Saints. Please note that in Eph 6:18-19 we read, “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me,” and in 1 Tim 2:1 we read, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,” In James 5:16 we are also told to “pray for one another.”

Now, it is clear from scripture that we are to engage in intercessory prayer. Moreover, the apostle James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” In the book of Hebrews 12:22-23 it says that, “…you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” If the prayers of a just man availeth much, surely the prayers of “just men made perfect” will be of even greater effect.

You refer to all these people as “dead.” This is contrary to scripture. Jesus, himself, says in Matt 22:32 “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are more alive than we are. We also read in the Gospels that Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor. At the transfiguration Jesus is seen and heard speaking with Moses and Elijah.

Catholic understandings in this area are the most compatible with scripture, and are fully patterned on what we know of the heavenly members of the body of Christ.

 

[mrS4ntA]

rod of iron:

But it is unbiblical.

Man is created in the image of God; this is biblical.

Because of Original Sin, man’s nature is fallen and his mind and intellect is darkened, by the Salvation purchased for us by the Blood of Christ, we are restored to man’s former state, if not more – since we will be in an eternal state of Beatific Vision – this is the “deification” of man; totally biblical.

 

[Aris]

It is said that you can not judge a man until you have walked in his shoes.

It will be really hard for you to understand the beauty of praying to and with Mary.

I suggest you look up the Hail Mary and see if there is anything unbiblical there.

Also the mysteries of the rosary. I suggest to you my favorite mysteries, the Sorrowful mysteries.

Agony in the Garden
Scourging at the pillar
Crowning of Thorns
Carrying of the Cross
Crucifixion and death.

Are they unbiblical? Do they not help you focus on Christ’s life?

Try it. Go through our Faith with an open eye and an open heart.

 

[MariaG]

Mary is JUST the mother of Jesus in the flesh? That is a pretty big just as only one person in the creation of man has ever been given the honor of being the mother of Jesus in the flesh and carrying the very being of God.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Pax:

You question the reasons for intercessory pray by Mary and the Saints. Please note that in Eph 6:18-19 we read, “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me,” and in 1 Tim 2:1 we read, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,” In James 5:16 we are also told to “pray for one another.”

I am not against other people who are physically alive praying for me. These scriptures you quoted are referring to physically alive saints. The idea of physically dead saints praying for you was totally foreign to the Bible. In Ephesians, Paul is speaking about “making supplication for all the (physically alive) saints”. Just because the Catholic church declares certain physically dead people to be saints, it does not change what Paul meant when he wrote that part of the epistle to the Ephesians. Paul was referring to physically living saints. Physically dead saints have no need of our prayers because they are already in the presence of God. The Bible does not support the idea that these physically dead saints pray for us.

Pax:

Now, it is clear from scripture that we are to engage in intercessory prayer. Moreover, the apostle James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” In the book of Hebrews 12:22-23 it says that, “…you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,” If the prayers of a just man availeth much, surely the prayers of “just men made perfect” will be of even greater effect.

Do you honestly believe that your saints in heaven just sit around waiting for someone to pray for? Do you believe that there is nothing of interest in heaven to stimulate the spiritual minds of those who are in heaven? After living on Earth, heaven would seem like hell if there are no heavenly activities occurring in heaven so that you must wait around for someone to pray for you. Do you believe that your saints are just sitting around on clouds playing harps? I believe that those who have gone to heaven may be too busy worshipping and praising God to have any time to be concerned with what is happening on the Earth.

Pax:

You refer to all these people as “dead.” This is contrary to scripture. Jesus, himself, says in Matt 22:32 “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are more alive than we are. We also read in the Gospels that Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor. At the transfiguration Jesus is seen and heard speaking with Moses and Elijah.

More alive than we are? Are you saying that the flesh makes us partially dead? Are we just walking around partially dead?

Pax:

Catholic understandings in this area are the most compatible with scripture, and are fully patterned on what we know of the heavenly members of the body of Christ.

Not as far as I’m concerned. The Catholic understandings seem to be built upon speculations and wishful thinking. The verses you quoted do not adequately support your argument.

 

[rod_of_iron]

mrS4ntA:

Man is created in the image of God; this is biblical.

Because of Original Sin, man’s nature is fallen and his mind and intellect is darkened, by the Salvation purchased for us by the Blood of Christ, we are restored to man’s former state, if not more – since we will be in an eternal state of Beatific Vision – this is the “deification” of man; totally biblical.

Deify means: “To make a god of; raise to the condition of a god.” You must be using the wrong word here, because I don’t believe you are saying that man can become a god, or that the Bible supports such an idea.

 

[jimmy]

rod of iron:

This still seems to be too much focus upon Mary.

Honor and worship are two different things. Major League Baseball honors good players by putting them into the Hall of Fame but they do not worship them.
rod of iron:

Why don’t you pray to God while focusing on the mysteries of Christ? Why not go straight to the top? Don’t you believe that you can directly approach God without Mary?

We do pray to God directly. We pray to the father with the our father and other prayers. We pray to the son and the holy spirit with other prayers.

If you look in Genesis 5 and Genesis 8 you can see that prayers to the saints are good. Since Mary is the greatest of all saints then there is no reason that you should not pray to her.

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: Rev 5;8

. 3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. Rev 8;3-4

Mary’s position is to tell Jesus what He should do??? Can Jesus not see the need and decide how to meet that need without being counseled by Mary? It would seem that you take one event recorded in the Bible and create a doctrine around it. Where was Mary when Jesus healed the lepers? Where was she when He put the demons into the swine? Where was she when He healed the blind man or raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead? If Jesus needed Mary to tell Him to turn water in wine, why wouldn’t He need her to make these other decisions and many more?

You clearly missread what I said and what the bible said. I did not say anything about her telling Jesus what to do. I said that She was telling the servants to do what ever Jesus told them to do. Those other passages you mention have nothing to do with the fact. No where does the Catholic Church or I say that Jesus needed Mary in order to do anything. My point was that if Mary would not have taken the servants to Jesus, they never would have found him. She told them to do what ever Jesus said. She can bring you closer to God.

But why would I need dead people to pray for me?

They are not dead. There bodies may be dead(except Marys’ and some others) but that does not mean there souls are. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Well that is similar to what praying to the saints is. They can help you to obtain the grace you need to follow God.

 

[jimmy]

Only perfect creation? Where is that found in the Bible? So, you are saying that a perfect God only managed to create a perfect creation once? Once He figured out how to create a perfect creation, wouldn’t He then create perfect creations after that? Or was it just a fluke? What about Adam and Eve? Didn’t God create them perfect? Didn’t He create the heaven and earth perfect? Didn’t he create the animals and plant life perfect? I can see in the first chapter of Genesis where God saw that everything He had created was good. Where is it written that Mary was the only good thing when God created her? Where is it written in scripture that God created Mary perfect and without sin? This also seems like an instance where the Catholic church takes a verse and forms a doctrine from it.

I may have said that wrong. It should have said the only perfect human creation of God. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. If they were perfect then they would not have sinned. They sinned making them not perfect.

Read and compare these two verses.

“And I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN YOU AND THE WOMAN(Note: This is singular, meaning* one and only one special woman*, Mary), and BETWEEN YOUR OFFSPRING AND HERS(I.E. Christ); IT (THE SEED) SHALL BRUISE THY (SATAN) head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

"And the GOD OF PEACE SHALL BRUISE SATAN…: (Romans 16:20)

The woman represents Mary in order for there to be true enmity betwee then she must have been without sin and perfect.

In Luke 1;28 the angel calls Mary “Full of Grace”. To be full of Gods grace implies that she is perfect. You can not be full of grace and have any sin.

Here is a couple links to an a couple articles that explain this better than me.
catholicapologetics.net/apolo_93.htm
catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm

Not to me it doesn’t.

If you stay long enough maybe you will understand.

This alleged event seems ironic. Since it cannot be proven either way at this time whether Mary was taken into heaven, it must be assumed that she was taken, yet the event is called the Assumption of Mary. How ironic!

It is called the Assumption because she was Assumed into heaven by God. She could not do it by herself. Jesus Ascended to Heaven of his own will, Mary was assumed to Heaven. It has nothing to do with not knowing so you assume.

If it is a sign of my love for God’s creations, shouldn’t I give every person the same honor as I would for Mary? Wouldn’t I also give every animal and every plant the same honor as Mary? Mary is just one of God’s creations. Why not honor all of His creations equally?

You do not give honor to plants and animals like you would give to any human let alone the mother of God. Plants and animals were created below humans. You should honor every person but Mary has a special honor for bearing Jesus and for following God in every way.

 

[MariaG]

Why not honor all God’s creations equally? Because Jesus did not honor Elizabeth as His mother, Honor john the Baptist, etc. There was one of God’s creations that Jesus honored as His mother, that creation is Mary. I prefer to imitate Christ in ALL things, including honoring Mary.

 

[Hans_A]

Brother/Sister Rod Of Iron, you must subscribe to the misconceived notion that “once saved, always saved”. The prayers that I am asking Mary and the Saints are for Almighty God to have mercy on me, a sinner. For having a fallen nature, I tend to hold onto some love of self, which leads me to sin. I ask that they continually beseech the Lord to give me his grace to strengthen me, so I will avoid temptation.

I do not see that I lack in faith. I understand that I, like everyone, am a sinner. I have faith that the Word became incarnate and entered the world through Mary’s sinless womb, as Jesus Christ. I have unfathomable faith that Jesus redeemed us all through his suffering and dying on the cross. I have faith that even though I commit mortal sins, through my own free will, which casts away God’s freely given sanctifying grace; I can reconcile myself to God through the sacrament of reconciliation. I have faith that if I die in the state of sanctifying grace, and it is God’s will, I will be reunited with God in heaven and partake in the Beatific Vision after being purged of all my love for self.

Due to this fact that I am working out my salvation “with fear and trembling”, I ask for all the help I can get.

In Christ,
Hans

 

[Pax]

rod of iron:

. …Paul was referring to physically living saints. Physically dead saints have no need of our prayers because they are already in the presence of God. The Bible does not support the idea that these physically dead saints pray for us.
…

Do you honestly believe that your saints in heaven just sit around waiting for someone to pray for? Do you believe that there is nothing of interest in heaven to stimulate the spiritual minds of those who are in heaven?..

More alive than we are? Are you saying that the flesh makes us partially dead? Are we just walking around partially dead?..

The Catholic understandings seem to be built upon speculations and wishful thinking. The verses you quoted do not adequately support your argument.

rod of iron,

No offense, but I think you have done a major league hatchet job and distortion of my post. I know full well what Paul said, and that he is telling us to pray for one another. I also in no way suggested that the saints in heaven are in need of our prayers.

Do I believe that the saints in heaven would be interested in praying on our behalf? Of course I do and with good reason. Jesus tells us in Luke 20:36 " for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Now then, what does scripture tell us about angels?

Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.”

Luke 15:10 “Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Okay, I’ll stop there, but there are many more verses that show us that the heavenly existence does not take away the love and concerns that the saints in heaven have for the saints on earth.
Reconsider the transfiguration and the glorified figures of Moses and Elijah.

In Rev 6:9-10 it says, " When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” And in Luke 16:27-31, we are told that the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers, “…so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

It’s pretty clear that those who have died have some awareness of what’s going on here on earth and that they care about it. And when I said that those in heaven are more alive than we are, I simply meant that they are more alive in Christ. They are face to face with God, and just as it is written, “…no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

 

[flick427]

Tell the protestants that cause this the following:

You, a protestant, probably love Jesus pretty much correct?
You, a protestant, respect the feelings of those you love correct?
If you really loved Jesus, you would show His mother respect, because He loves you and would not go around making usless phrases up about her and trying to put her down.
And when they say: “Yeah, but God was just working through Mary to accomplish his mission, she is not to be respected so much like the Catholics do because we are suppose to concentrate on Jesus.”
Tell them: "Really, so by your logic, God isn’t powerful enough to bring Himself into the world as His Divine Son through some other means than a humble handmaid?..If He wanted to, He could have Jesus appear gloriously from the Heavens all of the sudden like the second coming is supposed to be.
They will probably argue this too, saying that God did it that way so Jesus was just “one of us” and we would have to have faith to believe…that is true, but not totally.
So here is the deal: He wants us to be humble like Him also. God Almighty chose to make Himself lower than the angels to save mankind, and He accomplished this through a humble woman named Mary. When we run to Jesus without going through His mother, that is arrogant…we are so far below the Greatness of Our Lord that we may as well be regarded as cow dung. If it was the way God chose than how dare we say it isn’t necessary for us!?
I learned all that last part from what I read by St. Louis de Montfort…he is an excellent source of this stuff.
To Jesus, through Mary!

 

[mrS4ntA]

Consecrating ourselves in this way to Jesus through Mary implies placing our good deeds in Mary’s hands. Now, although these deeds may appear good to us, they are often defective, and not worthy to be considered and accepted by God, before whom even the stars lack brightness. Let us pray, then, to our dear Mother and Queen that having accepted our poor present, she may purify it, sanctify it, beautify it, and so make it worthy of God. Any good our soul could produce is of less value to God our Father, in winning his friendship and favour, than a worm-eaten apple would be in the sight of a king, when presented by a poor peasant to his royal master as payment for the rent of his farm. But what would the peasant do if he were wise and if he enjoyed the esteem of the queen? Would he not present his apple first to her, and would she not, out of kindness to the poor man and out of respect for the king, remove from the apple all that was maggoty and spoilt, place it on a golden dish, and surround it with flowers? Could the king then refuse the apple? Would he not accept it most willingly from the hands of his queen who showed such loving concern for that poor man? “If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”

 

[kurt]

rod of iron:

But Mary did not die so I can be forgiven of my sins. I can’t receive my atonement from the shedding of her blood. Why then should I give her any more respect or vereration than I would to any other human that God has created?

Jesus saves me, not Mary.

Perhaps because God gave Mary more respect than any other human He ever created, by choosing her to carry and give birth to his son.

 

[rod_of_iron]

MariaG:

Why not honor all God’s creations equally? Because Jesus did not honor Elizabeth as His mother, Honor john the Baptist, etc. There was one of God’s creations that Jesus honored as His mother, that creation is Mary. I prefer to imitate Christ in ALL things, including honoring Mary.

When did Jesus honor Mary? When did He tell anyone to pray to Mary so that Mary could get them grace more easily? I don’t see it in scripture. It appears that the Catholic church just made this all up.