Disrespect of the Holy Mother

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Rod of Iron

Take a look at these passages.
And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the** voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy**. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. Luke 1 *

Notice that when the infant hears Marys voice he jumps with joy. You don’t find that a little amazing? How about when Elizabeth, speaking while filled with the Holy Spirit, calls her the mother of her Lord. Yet you still are basically denying that she is the mother of God and has a place of honor. Elizabeth also calls her blessed among Women while speaking with the Holy Spirit. Again it mentions the voice of Mary making John jump for joy in the Womb of Elizabeth. Again Elizabeth calls her blessed. This is all while speaking with the Holy Spirit.
And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. Luke 1
*

All generations shall call her blessed yet you refuse her any honor. Right there in verse 49 it mentions the honor that God has given to Mary.
I find this all pretty amazing, yet you will ignore it.
 
Unfortunately, Rod will once again grasp at straws as we prove that the Blessed Mother of our Lord is worthy of the honour we bestow onto her. He will come back with questions and accusations because his heart is closed.

He is here to defame us, not to learn, and whatever answers we give, he twists them all around to suit him and his own agenda.

I truly admire you guys for the excellent Christian patience you have shown him … it goes to show that I truly need to ask the Blessed Mother to intercede for me in my prayers in the area of patience and tolerance.

Well at least this whole affair has made me look unto my own shortcomings (impatient frustration)

The Peace of Christ be with you.
 
I do Believe Rod of Iron, although here to show us the errors of our ways, has begun to see where we are coming from. Not agree. But he can at least see that we do base it on Scripture. He can disagree, and has, on interpretation, but the Scripture is still there.

I think where you are still confused Rod, is that you feel Catholics think they MUST go through Mary to get to Jesus, like the Jewish people had to go through the priests to get to God. You still believe we think we use Mary as a middleman.

This is simply not true. As a Catholic Christian I should and do take my prayers straight to God. All my worship, goes only and straight to God. And sometimes I ask Mary to go WITH me. For when two or more are gathered together in my name… I don’t have to physically go somewhere to gather together with the body of Christ. And sometimes I can even ask her to go for me. For those times that even though I know God can understand even the groans and utterings when words fail me, I can have a friend, a mother go and ask for help for me also. All glory goes to God for any answered prayer for He is the one who did it. But having your mother prayer for you is one of the most powerful prayers in the world.

It bears repeating. Catholic Christians do not think, find or in any way mean God is unapproachable. He is my God and Savior. He is my friend, my Father, my comforter, He is everything. We pray with Mary, to (as in entreat) Mary, and ask her to pray to God with us and for us just as we ask anyone else who is part of the body of Christ to pray with, and for us.

Mary is not a middleman. Mary is a mother.
God Bless
 
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truthseeker1:
If I know that you have been lied to, and that you believe the lie, and I try to point that out to you to save you from deception, am I being mean? No, I am doing it because I love you!
There is difference between explaining “the deception” and being called names, such as idiot, dummy, stupid, and others I will not mention here. If you want to explain the deception, then explain, but it does no good to revert to name calling, which is what I find what happens when people have lost the argument.

Personally I feel that it is protestants in general that do not understand the deception of the reformation. I grew up a protestant and thru many years of reading and studing, found the Catholic Church is THE one church extablished by Christ.
 
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Pax:
Again, you are putting words in the mouths of others and the teachings of their church. After all of the posts made in this thread, you should know better.
It is not my intention to put words in the mouths of others. I am trying to understand what you people are saying, because it does not make any sense. I am trying to make sense out of what you have told me. But instead of you trying to explain your doctrines and beliefs in a way that I can understand, you instead accuse me of trying to misrepresent the Catholic church.
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Pax:
No one has in any way suggested that Jesus is unapproachable without going through Mary. Therefore, you should stop making such shallow remarks.
As I said, I am trying to understand what you believe. If Jesus is indeed approachable without Mary, does this mean that Jesus will grant you the same mercy without Mary asking for you as He will if she does ask for you? Or do you believe that you have an added advantage asking Mary to join you in prayer, because she will be able to obtain more mercy for you than you can obtain on your own?
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Pax:
Even your last remark that “…her honor would have ceased after giving birth to Jesus” has been answered in another individual’s post, yet you persist.
It may have been responded to, but the response did not make sense to me, or else I would stop asking about it. Why would this honor extend onward forever? How does this honor benefit Mary? Is she more saved than everyone else is or can be? It has been claimed that Mary was born without original sin. How could she have been born without it when her parents would have both been born with it? Were Mary’s parents relieved of this original sin before Mary was conceived? If so, when and how did this happen?
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Pax:
Rod, what you seem to be missing is a grander and more beautiful view of the economy of scripture.
What I am missing is the legitimacy of your reasoning. Most of the responses to me have been examples of human reasoning, rather than scripturally based. One example of reasoning is: “if you would ask your own mother to pray for you, why wouldn’t you ask the mother of Jesus to pray for you?” This is human reasoning. Another example is: “if your own mother would be with you during your torture and execution, why wouldn’t Mary have been with Jesus through all His torture and His execution.” Again, this is human reasoning. I am not interested in human reasoning. I am interested in the truth. If your claims cannot be found in the Bible without having to wrest scriptures to support your claims, where else could we look for support for your claims?

(continued …)
 
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Pax:
Mary says in Luke 1:46-49, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
Again, these are things that Mary says about herself. If you or I were to say that God has blessed us and that all nations throughout all generations would call us blessed, could we expect that anyone who reads our claim would then pray to us and call us blessed? Mary made claims, and the Catholic church has done its best to fulfill her claims. This is similar to a self-fulfilling prophesy. Mary made a claim and the Catholic church has fulfilled it.

This type of fulfilling of a claim is seen also in the LDS church, where one of the early leaders of the LDS church after Joseph Smith’s death made the claim that LDS temples would dot the face of the earth. This leader made the claim, and the LDS church has fulfilled this claim by building over 100 LDS temples around the world. Was this leader any more of a prophet than Mary was when she claimed that all generations would call her blessed? Not as far as I’m concerned.
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Pax:
You accuse us wrongly, of essentially worshipping Mary. To even suggest something along this line is to not understand Catholic teaching at all.
Obviously, this is a matter of pragmatics. What I see as a form of worship is not seen as worship to you. I do not believe that anyone who has died is worth more than anyone on Earth, including you and me. I do not believe in exaltation. The Catholic church seems to believe that through their works, members can be exalted unto a level called Sainthood, which everyone on Earth looks up to. The Mormons go a step farther and believe that their members can be exalted unto a level of godhood. But I do not see where either of these levels exists. I see worship as holding up a person or thing as greater than yourself and showing devotion, veneration, or adoration toward that person or thing that you have lifted up. I classify all this under worship. If you do not, then that is your choice. I will not hold up another human being as greater than me except for Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh. I will not hold up anyone else in veneration, devotion, or adoration, including Joseph Smith.

When I looked up venerate in the dictionary, one of the definitions is: “To regard with great awe and devotion.” One of the synonyms in the Thesaurus is: **“worship.” **I still believe that lifting anyone above yourself is a form of worship.
 
rod of iron:
God, who was not created and is everlasting, has an everlasting mother name Mary, who He created??? It does not make sense.

Do you believe that Jesus existed before He came to Earth in the flesh? If you do, then did Jesus have a mother before Mary was created in the flesh?

Do you believe that Mary, along with all other humans, was created spiritually in the beginning, before she was created spiritually? If not, when was she created?

I still don’t think that Catholics feel they can approach God and obtain mercy from Him without Mary being the middleman.
Rod,

Why are you bothering to ask these questions. Everything stated in prior posts demonstrates what we do believe. Your questions are pointed in a direction that deviates from everything stated to you. You have also been told, in no uncertain terms, the view we have of the Blessed Virgin, yet you still don’t think that “Catholics feel they can approach God and obtain mercy from Him without Mary.” My questions for you are as follows:

How many times do Catholics have to tell you otherwise, before you will believe us?

Why do you enthusiastically embrace a view of Catholic teaching that is not stated anywhere in the Church’s catechism, official documents, or its traditions?

Why do you willing embrace anti-Catholic views that are contrary to what the church really teaches?

Is it fair, reasonable, respectable, and honest to denigrate another church’s teachings by reiterating, over and over, untrue cliches that have been repeatedly refuted?
 
rod of iron:
Again, these are things that Mary says about herself. If you or I were to say that God has blessed us and that all nations throughout all generations would call us blessed, could we expect that anyone who reads our claim would then pray to us and call us blessed? Mary made claims, and the Catholic church has done its best to fulfill her claims. This is similar to a self-fulfilling prophesy. Mary made a claim and the Catholic church has fulfilled it.

When I looked up venerate in the dictionary, one of the definitions is: “To regard with great awe and devotion.” One of the synonyms in the Thesaurus is: **“worship.” **I still believe that lifting anyone above yourself is a form of worship.
Rod,

The gospel of Luke is the inspired word of God and it contains no errors. It doesn’t matter that Mary, herself, said the words quoted above. She spoke the truth. Your line of reasoning simply doesn’t refute truth or the inspired word of God.

Your peak at the Thesaurus is at least a step in the right direction. An interest in language will go far in helping you understand the meaning and use of the word, “worship.” The term is much more generic than you might believe. The term worship comes from “worth ship.” We commonly see expressions like, “he loves his wife, and worships the ground she walks on.” There have been many uses like this over the years, and these are expressions based on this idea of “worth” and being worthy of respect, admiration, etc. When we use the term “worship” as it applies to God, we obviously mean something that far transcends all other forms of veneration, respect, and admiration.

The Catholic church has always made the appropriate distinctions when it comes to such ideas as they apply to the saints, Mary, and to God. The Church uses the Latin terms dulia, hyper-dulia, and latria for this purpose. Dulia is the kind of respect and veneration shown to our parents and extended in a higher degree to the saints. Hyper-dulia is the level of respect and veneration for Mary, while latria is the worship reserved solely for God. I hope this helps.
 
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Anglo-catholic:
The Gospel messages deal with salvation (What must I do to be saved) and there is no mention of Mary in this plan except to fulfil prophesy.
“except to fulfill prophecy”? What greater prophecy is there!? What greater fulfillment!? You breeze past our Salvation history as though it were not the Ruah of God.
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Anglo-catholic:
Much is made of Mary’s contribution of Jesus’ humanity but yet His conception is miraculous, His birth is miraculous. God can create from nothing - He needs no help or building blocks.
What God did is more substantive than what we think He could have done. God’s plan which is perfect included and depended upon the “Fiat” of this lowly daughter.
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Anglo-catholic:
Alternatively, God sets aside Divine intervention and (as He did His whole life) plays by the “rules” of human existance. He is the Incarnation, True God - True Man. He suffers and dies like a man…
“God sets aside Divine intervention”???

It is precisely by Divine intervention that Jesus became Man. What God did not beech was human free will and Mary’s virginity. God’s will was to wait upon Mary’s “Fiat” and cooperation. Then God waited another nine months while Jesus grew in Mary’s virginal womb. All the while, Mary pondered these things in her heart and the Son of God in her womb. What truer contemplative?
 
rod of iron:


I do not believe that anyone who has died is worth more than anyone on Earth, including you and me. I do not believe in exaltation. The Catholic church seems to believe that through their works, members can be exalted unto a level called Sainthood, which everyone on Earth looks up to…
Your disagreement on this extends beyond a disagreement with the Catholic church. Your disagreement extends to scripture as well. The following verses should dispel any disagreement you have about one’s heavenly status.

Mat 10: 41-42
Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward; and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous; and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple-truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward."

Matt 19: 27-29
Then Peter said in reply, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 6: 23
Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven;

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High;

1 Cor 3: 13-15
the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Jn 1:8
Be on your guard, so that you do not lose what we have worked for, but may receive a full reward.

Rev 22: 12
"See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.

It is pretty clear from the above that there is a system of rewards in heaven. Matt 19: 27-29 is particularly telling in that it points out that apostles will sit on twelve thrones etc. Now if you do not understand this, then you have no understanding or sense of God’s justice nor do you have any idea of how God views heroic virture. Perhaps, reading the Book of Job would also be helpful in this regard.
 
Rod,

Your expressions concerning Catholics and Mormons in the same breath shows a lack of understanding of both churches. Mormons and Catholics disagree on just about everything concerning heaven. If we were in a discussion with an LDS believer this would become immediately clear. We also disagree with the LDS on what is the totality of scripture, and do not accept any other books beyond the bible as the inspired word of God. With all due respect to both churches, I hope you will not repeat this kind of thing in the future.
 
rod of iron:
Again, these are things that Mary says about herself. If you or I were to say that God has blessed us and that all nations throughout all generations would call us blessed, could we expect that anyone who reads our claim would then pray to us and call us blessed?
With all due respect Rod, this is a seriously flawed arguement. Why? Because these statements Mary has made are in the inspired and inerrant Scriptures. Which means they are God breathed revelation. What you or I say is not God breathed revelation.
 
Pax said:
Rod,

Your expressions concerning Catholics and Mormons in the same breath shows a lack of understanding of both churches. Mormons and Catholics disagree on just about everything concerning heaven. If we were in a discussion with an LDS believer this would become immediately clear. We also disagree with the LDS on what is the totality of scripture, and do not accept any other books beyond the bible as the inspired word of God. With all due respect to both churches, I hope you will not repeat this kind of thing in the future.

From what I’ve heard and experienced (my father’s family is involved in LDS) there are a lot of ex-catholics in the LDS. Not too surprising given the level of adult catechesis in the Catholic Church unfortunately. The LDS Church, IMHO and sorry if this offends 😦 , rely on people with limited knowledge of the gospel message for conversion. This example may also show how/why they can grab so many Catholics.
Sorry off-topic but I thought I’d address it. BTW - my box just turned green, took a while but maybe now I can be taken more seriously!! 😛 Unless I’ve ruined it by my potentially offensive comment… 😦
 
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Jennifer123:
From what I’ve heard and experienced (my father’s family is involved in LDS) there are a lot of ex-catholics in the LDS. Not too surprising given the level of adult catechesis in the Catholic Church unfortunately. The LDS Church, IMHO and sorry if this offends 😦 , rely on people with limited knowledge of the gospel message for conversion. This example may also show how/why they can grab so many Catholics.
Sorry off-topic but I thought I’d address it. BTW - my box just turned green, took a while but maybe now I can be taken more seriously!! 😛 Unless I’ve ruined it by my potentially offensive comment… 😦
Jennifer,

Your observations are in no way offensive. It should be pointed out, however, that many more Catholics that have left the church have gone to fundamentalist and evangelical circles than to LDS. LDS has converts from all faiths as do Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and still others.
 
Pax said:
Rod,

Your expressions concerning Catholics and Mormons in the same breath shows a lack of understanding of both churches. Mormons and Catholics disagree on just about everything concerning heaven. If we were in a discussion with an LDS believer this would become immediately clear. We also disagree with the LDS on what is the totality of scripture, and do not accept any other books beyond the bible as the inspired word of God. With all due respect to both churches, I hope you will not repeat this kind of thing in the future.

But the simililarity is so clear, even if you refuse to see it. Both Catholics and Mormons believe in a type of exaltation. Catholics believe that people can be exalted to sainthood, while Mormons believe that people can be exalted to godhood. I never said that sainthood and godhood are the same. Nor did I ever say that the two churches are exactly alike on any given doctrine. But if you want to keep your eyes shut so as to not see this similarity I pointed out, it is your choice to pretend it does not exist.
 
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ccav:
With all due respect Rod, this is a seriously flawed arguement. Why? Because these statements Mary has made are in the inspired and inerrant Scriptures. Which means they are God breathed revelation. What you or I say is not God breathed revelation.
Inerrant? God-breathed? You sound as if you are trying to deify the Bible. You put it beyond reproach. How could corruptible mankind write a book that couldn’t possibly have any errors in it? You act as if God dropped the books of the Bible from the sky already written. Not everything in the Bible is revelatory. The history of the Jews as found in the Bible was not given by revelation. That history was recorded by men as they witnessed events or as it was handed down to them by oral tradition. There is no guarantee that these men got every detail perfectly correct, especially when passing down history by oral tradition. I believe that the Bible is reliable, but not inerrant. The Bible does not even claim to be inerrant.
 
This thread is dead and a waste of time.

Catholics: “This is what we believe.”

Rod: “No you don’t, THIS is what you REALLY believe.”

Catholics: “No, you’re mistaken, we believe THIS.”

Rod: “No, the long-understood definition of THAT is mistaken, I believe it means THIS.”

Catholics: “No, you shouldn’t be putting words in our mouths.”

Rod: “I’m not putting words in your mouth–you refuse to see the truth.”

Me: Pearls before swine, guys. Pearls before swine…
 
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Pax:
Your disagreement on this extends beyond a disagreement with the Catholic church. Your disagreement extends to scripture as well. The following verses should dispel any disagreement you have about one’s heavenly status.

Mat 10: 41-42
Matt 19: 27-29
Luke 6: 23
Luke 6:35
1 Cor 3: 13-15
2 Jn 1:8
Rev 22: 12

It is pretty clear from the above that there is a system of rewards in heaven. Matt 19: 27-29 is particularly telling in that it points out that apostles will sit on twelve thrones etc. Now if you do not understand this, then you have no understanding or sense of God’s justice nor do you have any idea of how God views heroic virture. Perhaps, reading the Book of Job would also be helpful in this regard.
How do any of these scriptures answer my questions? I never said that we wouldn’t be rewarded after death if we went to heaven. But a reward is not necessarily the same thing as being exalted to a higher position or level than others. If you believe that the 12 apostles are lifted up, why don’t you pray to them? Your reference does not mention that Mary has a throne. Why didn’t she get one?
 
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montanaman:
This thread is dead and a waste of time.

Catholics: “This is what we believe.”

Rod: “No you don’t, THIS is what you REALLY believe.”

Catholics: “No, you’re mistaken, we believe THIS.”

Rod: “No, the long-understood definition of THAT is mistaken, I believe it means THIS.”

Catholics: “No, you shouldn’t be putting words in our mouths.”

Rod: “I’m not putting words in your mouth–you refuse to see the truth.”

Me: Pearls before swine, guys. Pearls before swine…
So, I’m a swine, huh? I read where someone on this forum said that when someone resorts to insults, it is because they are losing the argument. Calling me a swine sure resembles an insult to me.

Further, swine may not value or appreciate pearls, but I have not seen them pray to Mary either. Maybe I am in good company with the swine after all.
 
Why do people worship someone who got f***ed by god? It doesn’t make any sense to me.
 
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