Distinct Characteristics of Latria

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Tommy999 said:
Welcome back to the forum after seven years! If it’s not too personal, just curious what brought you back after all this time away.
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Thank you! To be honest it was this one unresolved question that has periodically bugged me… the one Catholic apologetic topic that I never found a satisfying answer to 😉 It pops into my head every now and then and I thought I might as well go to the experts and get it sorted out 😉
 
They say that because people put all these things ahead of God. They pursue money or fame or power or whatever at the expense of God — they sacrifice everything in pursuit of these false gods—family, friends, health, and even the True God. You can say they know these things aren’t God, but their actions say differently. What do you call something that is pursued with your whole heart, mind, and soul?
 
Yes. Worship involves knowing and purpose. You simply aren’t hearing what I’m saying because you seem determined to argue what you think I am saying based on your own preconceived notions. Also you have this whole kind of Biblical early Christian martyr scenario and you are basing your answers on my response with the idea that somehow I am addressing ‘early Christian martyrs’ and not ‘present day people living in Japan (unknown to 1st century Rome) and modern people in London, not Caesar’s ‘isle’.

And why are you asking ‘how far can we go?” Why would we ‘go’ in the direction of idolatry at all?

I’ll repeat. Christians, and Catholics in particular, worship GOD and we HONOR the saints.

We are not going to veer into worship of saints by giving them honor. It’s not a continuum going from “Honor’ on one end to ‘worship’ at the other and we mince along to that ‘point’ where we jump over from ‘honor’ to ‘worship’ and vice versa.

We live in AD 2020 not 2nd century “Rome”. We don’t get asked to stand up and burn sacrifices or crown a statue of the emperor, so extrapolating from that to implying that a person bowing to the Queen of England is ‘the same” as the person asked to bow to a statue of Augustus Caesar is frankly puerile. It is the attitude, knowledge, purpose that matter, not the gesture.

A person who bowed to Augustus Caesar is making the same physical gesture that a person makes to the Queen of England, but the knowledge and intention behind the gesture is completely different.

Until you can understand that it is what is ‘inside’ and not ‘outside’ which ‘defile the person, I fear you’re doomed to tilt at strawmen.
 
Genesis315 said:
Latria as adoration of God is an act of religion offered to God in acknowledgment of His supreme perfection and dominion, and of the creature’s dependence upon Him. Other than hearing certain words, it would be difficult to determine simply by looking at it. Generally, though, there are culturally understood forms. Sacrifice is the most consistent act reserved exclusively for adoration, as someone else mentioned above.
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Thank you, this is the kind of information I was looking for. If I understand what you are saying, some of the distinctive characteristics of latria are, then:
  • acknowledging supreme perfection
  • acknowledging supreme dominion
  • acknowledging dependence (but we are all dependent on many things, so does it have to be qualified somehow, like ultimate dependence?
So, if we kneel before a king, but with the unstated understanding that the king is subject to God, and that the King is not Perfect, then this isn’t worship, it is just showing respect for an earthly authority?

But when does dependence cross the line? For example if we put too much hope in money, I guess we are depending on money instead of God. But it’s normal to depend on money to some extent. Hmm…

Thanks so much!
 
MarkInOregon said:
They say that because people put all these things ahead of God. They pursue money or fame or power or whatever at the expense of God — they sacrifice everything in pursuit of these false gods—family, friends, health, and even the True God. You can say they know these things aren’t God, but their actions say differently. What do you call something that is pursued with your whole heart, mind, and soul?
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Yes I see what you mean.
So if it is possible to put money ahead of God in practice, then perhaps it is also possible to put an earthly person, or even a saint ahead of God in practice as well, if everything we do and say and think is focused around that other person.
 
stpurl said:
And why are you asking ‘how far can we go?” Why would we ‘go’ in the direction of idolatry at all?
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Oh my, this seems to be going off course. I will take the blame for it, I have a funny way of communicating and asking questions that often irks people and causes misunderstandings. It’s probably best if I just leave it at that!
God bless.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
then perhaps it is also possible to put an earthly person, or even a saint ahead of God in practice as well,
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Yes, it is. It’s also likely that this can happen on an subconscious level. Most people could think of a time when their priorities got out of balance for a certain amount of time. IDK if such instances would be labeled in general terms like a dulia or latria.

When circumstances get nuanced generalities tend to break down and I think that’s the kind of territory you’re getting into now with the demon foot kissing question. I don’t think the general terminology of dulia and latria are meant to answer such nuanced questions. Ultimately, I think that is why every answer comes down to - what is in your heart, what are your intentions. And the primacy of conscience.
 
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I’ve found that the Catholics I’ve met on this forum know and explain their faith very well and definitely have the proper perspective on latria and dulia, and hyper dulia and all that stuff. 😀. I’ve learned a lot from them and assume they know their faith well. I definitely know they know it a lot better than I do.

However, in real life, amongst some Catholics that I know (poorly catechized, I assume) some tell me they plan to pray for certain prayer requests of mine by going to Virgin Mary and ask her to grant the request. They are from Latin America, if that makes any difference.

While I appreciate their concern for me and don’t argue with them, my Protestant upbringing wonders if they are attributing powers to her that belong to God alone by saying they will pray for her to grant the request. I would’ve felt more comfortable if they had said they would ask for Mary to pray for me to God or Jesus. I have no problem with this approach.
 
Tommy, my son-in-law and family are Hispanic. If it helps, the majority of people who are Latin American do not believe that Mary is superior to God, acting like God, to be preferred to God, etc. any more than any “Anglo’ Catholic etc.

The Catholic heritage is so strong and the understanding is so clear that (and I know this from my Protestant best friend) that the real difficulty is not with Tia Maria or Tio Jose going to the Virgin, or San Antonio, or whomever.

The understanding is so clear that God is working through His saints (kind of like your ultimate CEO working through his managers) that there is a sort of “Catholic shorthand understanding”. It is so basic to our understanding that all graces, all actions come from God as the ultimate ‘source’ and go through our ‘neighbors’ and ourselves that we don’t even have to articulate it. God is all, but in His infinite goodness He allows us to help assist Him.

Here on earth there are thousands of saint who are God’s arms and legs, if you will, bringing Him to each other. My own prayers come from me but only because God has called me into being, given me my body and soul to use for Him.

Similarly His saints, who once on earth brought Him to others, because He willed them into being and gave them the opportunity to do HIS will, can do the same in heaven. Again, all originates in GOD, no one can do anything without him.

It is understood that praying to St. Anthony to help find something is not expecting that St. Anthony, sitting around in heaven with nothing much to do, is going to, of his volition, go around and get his own little posse of people worshipping Him and getting things from him instead of God, or that we are bypassing God. We aren’t.
 
I appreciate the explanation, @stpurl It was helpful and helps clarify things. I hope you understand that this shorthand method used by Catholics that you speak of is not as clear or understood among non-Catholics without the good explanation you provided, which can lead to misunderstandings - even among people of good will like I aspire to be.
 
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It would be impossible to think of a saint as if he or she were God, since being a saint means they followed God’s will and depend entirely on His grace for their sanctity. Saints could do nothing without God. But in union witj God, their prayers can be very powerful.
 
JimG said:
It would be impossible to think of a saint as if he or she were God, since being a saint means they followed God’s will and depend entirely on His grace for their sanctity. Saints could do nothing without God. But in union witj God, their prayers can be very powerful.
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Wow, Impossible! It’s nice that things are so clear! Sadly, when we think everything seems to clear, we may be suffering from black-and-white thinking, which might be good for defending the faith against attacks from outside I suppose. If that’s what apologetics is supposed to do. On the other hand if we’re trying to build bridges with people who don’t understand, I’m not so sure it helps.

Anyway, do you mean it is logically impossible or just not reasonably possible?

How about a person who really dislikes Jesus in their heart. The stories of Jesus judging them have made them angry. But they have developed a great love for Mary in their heart. She will protect them from the evil Jesus who is going to judge them. She will plead with Him to be merciful on them. Because she is so loving and Jesus is so mean. Far-fetched? These people are all over. Does this perhaps start to cross a boundary of some kind?
 
That doesn’t make sense to me. Mary and every other saint became saints by loving Jesus and following his commandments. Why would someone reject Jesus but love all his friends?
 
Neil_Anthony said:
This is helpful but partly a circular definition in that “prayer or asking for divine help” is part of what constitutes divine worship… what exactly distinguishes asking for divine help vs asking for other forms of help?

E.g. if I kneel down before a statue of an eagle and ask the eagle spirit for help, is this latria or dulia?
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No reply to my last post to you, so I am providing more here. You wrote: “what exactly distinguishes asking for divine help vs asking for other forms of help?”

Asking for divine help is directly from God.
Angels and saints are asked to intercede before the divine Majesty.

Idolatry is “is giving divine honors to a creature”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary) So there are two questions to consider to test for idolatry:
  • Does the person give divine honors?
  • Who or what is the subject of the honors?
A statue is a creature, but if it is a symbol of another subject then it is not the statue, but what the statue symbolizes that is subject. Some people worship a statue itself that is not a symbol.

If the subject is an angel or saint then the creature can be venerated. If the subject is the true God, then there can be adoration.
 
Good to hear from you again. Hope you are well.

Latria, fully and properly expressed > worship > offering sacrifice.

Clearer?
 
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Neil_Anthony said:
If we encounter a demon, and he demands that we just perform dulia on him, not worship, is it okay to bow down and kiss the demon’s feet?
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My advice: don’t bow down and kiss a demon’s feet, whatever you want to call that act.
 
Vico said:
Asking for divine help is directly from God.
Angels and saints are asked to intercede before the divine Majesty.

Idolatry is “is giving divine honors to a creature”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary) So there are two questions to consider to test for idolatry:
  • Does the person give divine honors?
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It seems that the distinction you are describing keeps coming back to whether the person giving the honour believes that the entity being honoured is God. If he doesn’t believe that the entity is God, then its not worship, by definition. Would you say that is a fair summary?
 
Canvas said:
My advice: don’t bow down and kiss a demon’s feet, whatever you want to call that act.
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Yes! It’s a very clear example of something we shouldn’t do. And yet some people would insist that this is not an act of idolatry, because if they admit it would be idolatry, then their definition of idolatry would have to change.
 
We recognize that God is Creator. All knowing, all good, all just.
All power comes from Him ultimately.

Latria acknowledges and proclaims this.

If we attributed this to , for instance, St John, that would be wrong
 
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