Disturbing News on TLM

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Eilish_Maura said:
Where has the church defined ‘pride of place’ by a certain amount of usage?
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It’s not that hard. “Pride of place” clearly meaning majority. Continuity would be the key word in understanding what is meant here. Gregorian Chant and other Sacred Music was used exclusively before Vatican II. Vatican II prescribes that Gregorian Chant continue to have a “pride of place.” Hardly having Gregorian Chant, or never having Gregorian Chant is obviously not what the Council or the Popes afterward have intended. This would be discontinuity. In understanding “pride of place,” common sense would be the other key factor here.
If a parish works within the legitimate structure given by the HMC and never uses Gregorian Chant then there is NO PROBLEM.
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According to whom?
 
bkovacs said:
Original Letter and follow up.
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Wow! Did it ever occur to you to actually attend these parishes, introduce yourself to the Pastor, see what the place is like, and then respectfully ask your questions in person?

I think you should be glad you got an answer at all to a note that brusk. 😦
 
“Prefering the Novus Ordo Mass, or not being particularly interested in Latin Mass, is not a sin.”

But you may incur the wrath of God as well as the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul for undermining the Mass of Trent.
 
ProVobis said:
“Prefering the Novus Ordo Mass, or not being particularly interested in Latin Mass, is not a sin.”

But you may incur the wrath of God as well as the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul for undermining the Mass of Trent.
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Huh?? 🤷
 
ProVobis said:
“Prefering the Novus Ordo Mass, or not being particularly interested in Latin Mass, is not a sin.”

But you may incur the wrath of God as well as the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul for undermining the Mass of Trent.
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I’m not sure I understand you. Why would it incur the wrath of God to prefer the Novus Ordo in the vernacular to a Tridentine Mass? In what way would a basic personal preference for one over the other undermine the Novus Ordo?
 
Brother_John said:
Huh?? 🤷
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HOPEFUL_IN_UK said:
I’m not sure I understand you. Why would it incur the wrath of God to prefer the Novus Ordo in the vernacular to a Tridentine Mass? In what way would a basic personal preference for one over the other undermine the Novus Ordo?
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I believe he is quoting the end of Pius V’s Quo Primum:

"Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."

James
 
bkovacs, I haven’t read all of the replies yet, but I used to live in Bucks County, and there are some very reverent churches out that way. Like the one poster pointed out, two TLM’s are offered in the city (which I know is about an hour away from you, but I drove 50 minutes to get to a church for a few years, so it’s certainly doable if there really are no other options). But another church you might want to look into visiting, while not offering the Extraordinary Form to my knowledge, is Our Lady of Good Counsel in Southampton. I’ve been there a couple of times and it is VERY reverent and beautiful. I grew up in lower Bucks County though, so I can’t think of any others that are particularly close to you. Although have you been to the shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa yet? That’s another place you could go.
 
bkovacs said:
“Dear Bob,
Very briefly…yes, I do speak with my parishioners. I check in with
them on a variety of topics. By the way, I know Latin fairly well. I was
of the generation in the Seminary that was not only taught Latin but was
taught in Latin. In speaking with them, the overwhelming majority find it a
curiosity, much like having a Mass in Spanish or German or Pennsylvania
Dutch. As far as attending Mass regularly in Latin, no, that is not for
them. They have no interest whatsoever.
Yes, we need all six Masses in English. In fact, we preparing for a time
in the not so distant future when there will be even fewer priests available
for Mass and that may mandate a reduction in the number of Masses here. Our
church was built for that contingency. I doubt very much that there is any
interest in any other parish around here. As far as young seminarians,
there are less than 40 studying for Philadelphia. Not exactly overwhelming
numbers. They do not have much interest in any foreign language, let alone
Latin. They do learn conversational Spanish.
If there was a major need for a Tridentine Mass, yes, I would be
interested. But there has been none and I think I know my parishioners
fairly well. Take care and God bless.
Father Riegler”
QUOTE]

Sounds very sensible to me. That is what I wouldve said.

Your Abbott
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God bless all here!
(No, I’m not Irish, but St. Pat’s Day is near.)
The following question would perhaps be better directed towards the moderators of this forum, although I welcome any comments or advice from any member:
Would it be possible to headline the Traditional Catholic section of this forum with some kind of a notice asking those who are actively opposed to the EF and/or to the practice of traditional Catholicism to please refer to the numerous other threads in the archive which deal with exactly the same topics that they obsessively keep bringing up? I ask this in the interest of those of us who consider ourselves to be traditionalists of one kind or another, in order that we may have a space in which to communicate with each other, without having to get constantly bogged down in these battles with people who don’t understand our affection for the EF and don’t want to understand.
I am lucky enough to be a member of a parish with an EF mass on Sunday morning and reverent OF masses during the other times. Actually, I’ve attended OF masses at three other churches in this area and all were dignified and spiritual. I simply fell in love with the TLM the first time I attended one, maybe because I am a great respecter of tradition and history or maybe because I played too much Dungeons and Dragons as a teenager. In whichever case, I came to this forum because I want to discuss topics particular to those of us who revere the EF and other aspects of our faith which seem to have fallen by the wayside over the years. As much as I appreciate the valiant defenses that posters like Brotherhrolf, the Duke of Mantua, and Rolltide have presented here, I resent that we constantly have to be presenting these same arguments and counter-arguments to those who apparently bear us no good will. I welcome sincere inquiries from the curious and confused, but these same attacks by those opposed to our views have become tiring. (I know I am a new member but I have been reading this forum for over six months.)
Please, if you really, really hate the idea of the use of Latin, altar rails, Gregorian chant, etc., go vent on another forum where you can be among the like-minded. Leave us nutty trads alone!
 
Well, since I don’t know anyone that wants the TLM, but** I** do and I’ve asked my parish priest (he said he didn’t like it, didn’t think the Pope was right in having it again, knew that none of the other priests of the archdiocese wanted to do it - I really think the Archbishop did a “survey” of priests letting them know his wishes - said that even retired priests who know it in this archdiocese didn’t want to do it), there is only 1 indult low mass in this huge archdiocese and it’s difficult (especially with gas prices and parking!) to get there. We are supposed to have the most “unchurched” people in this archdiocese and I wouldn’t doubt it. I would doubt that many of them know about the MP (other than the ones that post here at CAF). The Archbishop has said on radio that he is “very hesitant” and I also know from listening to him that he is terribly concerned about “ecuminism” (read-false ecuminism), especially of the SE Asian peoples in this archdiocese (I think that is a big reason that kneeling is not big here).

So what do I do? Write Ecclesia Dei (but I’m certainly not a group)? Writing the Archbishop is certainly a fruitless thing to do.🤷

Too bad the MP didn’t include the Sarum Use or Anglican Use Masses. I’d love to be able to attend those and although the call for them may not be very big, I think the Archbishop would like it better. He’s likes the Anglicans he’s said/written and thinks we should join them (or have them join us - I don’t know if he thinks there is a difference).
 
Eilish_Maura said:
A parish can be orthodox and have no interest in offering the TLM.
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I’ll bite. Why would an orthodox parish have no interest in offering one? I can understand how a progressive parish wouldn’t want to but why wouldn’t an orthodox one?
 
SemperFidelis said:
Oh, it’ll be worth it. I promise you that. 👍
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What I don’t understand. There should be hundreds of priests available in larger dioceses, who grew up with the Latin Mass, and they were trained to celebrate the Mass in Latin.

They studied basic latin, then the 2nd year, Caesar, then the 3rd year Cicero. In their final year in H.S., they studied Homer. They studied more latin in the Seminary.

With that basis in classical languages, and I include the bishops here who underwent the same training, why isn’t there an overwhelming movement back to the Latin Mass.

To me there is an aversion to it in the American Catholic Church. And in the next 10 to 20 years it will be further downhill.

If you don’t like the NO, then push to revive it; but, you won’t get the Church to go back to a more difficult Mass for the faithful.

But of course, this is just my opinion. What do I know? I’m just the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Your Abbott
 
palmas85 said:
I’ll bite. Why would an orthodox parish have no interest in offering one? I can understand how a progressive parish wouldn’t want to but why wouldn’t an orthodox one?
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True, doesn’t make much sense.
 
Your_Abbott said:
What I don’t understand. There should be hundreds of priests available in larger dioceses, who grew up with the Latin Mass, and they were trained to celebrate the Mass in Latin.

They studied basic latin, then the 2nd year, Caesar, then the 3rd year Cicero. In their final year in H.S., they studied Homer. They studied more latin in the Seminary.
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It’s true what are these priests doing. My diocese is 2 million, yet only two TLM services.
With that basis in classical languages, and I include the bishops here who underwent the same training, why isn’t there an overwhelming movement back to the Latin Mass.
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To me there is an aversion to it in the American Catholic Church. And in the next 10 to 20 years it will be further downhill.
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I think there will be.
 
Your_Abbott said:
What I don’t understand. There should be hundreds of priests available in larger dioceses, who grew up with the Latin Mass, and they were trained to celebrate the Mass in Latin.
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The majority of the priests who were ordained right around Vatican II tend to be more liberal than the priests who’ve been ordained this last decade or two. Liberal theology does not mix with the TLM. That’s plain and simple the reason most won’t say it.
With that basis in classical languages, and I include the bishops here who underwent the same training, why isn’t there an overwhelming movement back to the Latin Mass.
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Uh, there kinda has been. It’s been only six months since SP went into effect. Check out the parishes that have added it here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=177324

Things don’t change overnight my friend. The bishops in America (and the rest of the world for that matter) have spent decades doing everything in their power to curtail the TLM being said in their Dioceses. Even now, after the pope has given the freedom to the priests, the bishops are still trying to stop it. Do you think this has had no effect? Liberal bishops can still make life hard for those who want to offer the TLM, even post-SP.
To me there is an aversion to it in the American Catholic Church.
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Once again, this is due to the bishops. Things have turned around dramatically in only a couple of years.
And in the next 10 to 20 years it will be further downhill.
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Considering that SP just came out, and that compared to 25 years ago the TLM has grown dramatically and consistently year after year, I think you’ll be surprised. What pray tell, do you think will buck this trend?
If you don’t like the NO, then push to revive it; but, you won’t get the Church to go back to a more difficult Mass for the faithful.
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Is this what your crystal ball has told you? We wouldn’t want anything to be difficult in this world of fast-food drive-thrus, pleasure on demand, and cell phones would we? Perhaps, a simple Mass is really just giving in to the demands of the world. Now I can’t quite remember where that was condemned…
I’m just the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
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Sheesh, for someone that’s 800 pounds, you’d think I’d be able to see you. I guess 20/20 vision just isn’t good enough…either that or the gorilla just isn’t really there. BTW, I thought it was supposed to be an elephant anyway.
 
palmas85 said:
I’ll bite. Why would an orthodox parish have no interest in offering one? I can understand how a progressive parish wouldn’t want to but why wouldn’t an orthodox one?
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Orthodoxy does not require interest in the TLM.

If there is no interest in it there is no reason to offer it per the MP.
 
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