Disturbing News on TLM

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brigid12 said:
Well, since I don’t know anyone that wants the TLM, but** I** do and I’ve asked my parish priest (he said he didn’t like it, didn’t think the Pope was right in having it again, knew that none of the other priests of the archdiocese wanted to do it - I really think the Archbishop did a “survey” of priests letting them know his wishes - said that even retired priests who know it in this archdiocese didn’t want to do it), there is only 1 indult low mass in this huge archdiocese and it’s difficult (especially with gas prices and parking!) to get there. We are supposed to have the most “unchurched” people in this archdiocese and I wouldn’t doubt it. I would doubt that many of them know about the MP (other than the ones that post here at CAF). The Archbishop has said on radio that he is “very hesitant” and I also know from listening to him that he is terribly concerned about “ecuminism” (read-false ecuminism), especially of the SE Asian peoples in this archdiocese (I think that is a big reason that kneeling is not big here).

So what do I do? Write Ecclesia Dei (but I’m certainly not a group)? Writing the Archbishop is certainly a fruitless thing to do.🤷

Too bad the MP didn’t include the Sarum Use or Anglican Use Masses. I’d love to be able to attend those and although the call for them may not be very big, I think the Archbishop would like it better. He’s likes the Anglicans he’s said/written and thinks we should join them (or have them join us - I don’t know if he thinks there is a difference).
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Hi Brigid,

Even though your profile says “Pacific Northwest” I’m going to guess you’re talking about the Portland, Oregon area as I know exactly what you mean. The only indult is an 8 am Sunday service at St. Birgitta’s, which is something like 20 miles outside of town past an industrial area in a church you would probably never run across on your own even if you’ve lived in Portland for years.

One thing I’d like to see is Holy Rosary Parish have the Dominican rite Mass (or TLM) at their 11 AM service. I mean it’s already an English/Latin NO hybrid so it seems as if it would be a fairly easy switch.
 
SemperFidelis said:
T

Sheesh, for someone that’s 800 pounds, you’d think I’d be able to see you. I guess 20/20 vision just isn’t good enough…either that or the gorilla just isn’t really there. BTW, I thought it was supposed to be an elephant anyway.
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The writers’ Strike must be still on.

Your Abbott

PS Time is not on your side. The Latin-praying priests are all dead or dying.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Orthodoxy does not require interest in the TLM.
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That’s kind of like saying hockey players don’t require a skating rink. While it may be technically true that you can play without one, the skating rink is kinda beneficial.

Where orthodoxy flourishes, so will forms of worship that are particularly expressive of it. The Traditional Latin Mass is not some fancy, unnecessary trapping - it is a source of Catholic orthodoxy. ***Lex orandi, lex credendi. ***As you pray, you will believe.
 
Your_Abbott said:
What I don’t understand. There should be hundreds of priests available in larger dioceses, who grew up with the Latin Mass, and they were trained to celebrate the Mass in Latin.

They studied basic latin, then the 2nd year, Caesar, then the 3rd year Cicero. In their final year in H.S., they studied Homer. They studied more latin in the Seminary.

With that basis in classical languages, and I include the bishops here who underwent the same training, why isn’t there an overwhelming movement back to the Latin Mass.

To me there is an aversion to it in the American Catholic Church. And in the next 10 to 20 years it will be further downhill.
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The MP requires a community of faithful. Even if hundreds of priests in each diocese were itching to pray the Latin Mass, they wouldn’t have any cause to without demand.

I really don’t see how the Traditional Latin Mass is fading… they’ve experienced a remarkable jump since the MP and traditional seminaries are filled to the brim. It seems that nothing short of an act of God can stop the Traditional Mass from growing.
 
Dauphin said:
That’s kind of like saying hockey players don’t require a skating rink. While it may be technically true that you can play without one, the skating rink is kinda beneficial.

Where orthodoxy flourishes, so will forms of worship that are particularly expressive of it. The Traditional Latin Mass is not some fancy, unnecessary trapping - it is a source of Catholic orthodoxy. ***Lex orandi, lex credendi. ***As you pray, you will believe.
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I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope designated a missal as the OF that is NOT a source of Catholic orthodoxy and makes a lie of Lex orandi, lex credendi.
 
Originally Posted by Dauphin forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
That’s kind of like saying hockey players don’t require a skating rink. While it may be technically true that you can play without one, the skating rink is kinda beneficial.

*Where orthodoxy flourishes, so will forms of worship that are particularly expressive of it. The Traditional Latin Mass is not some fancy, unnecessary trapping - it is a source of Catholic orthodoxy. ***Lex orandi, lex credendi. **As you pray, you will believe.
Eilish_Maura said:
I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope designated a missal as the OF that is NOT a source of Catholic orthodoxy and makes a lie of Lex orandi, lex credendi.
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What a great line of thinking… not

But you do reinforce the Lex orandi, lex credendi for sure.

Our parish anticipates the TLM. What a great and courageous pastor we have. And now we have a new bishop is will be very supportive of the EM. We are blessed.

.
 
MrS said:
Originally Posted by Dauphin forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
That’s kind of like saying hockey players don’t require a skating rink. While it may be technically true that you can play without one, the skating rink is kinda beneficial.

Where orthodoxy flourishes, so will forms of worship that are particularly expressive of it. The Traditional Latin Mass is not some fancy, unnecessary trapping - it is a source of Catholic orthodoxy. ***Lex orandi, lex credendi. ***As you pray, you will believe.

What a great line of thinking… not

But you do reinforce the Lex orandi, lex credendi for sure.

Our parish anticipates the TLM. What a great and courageous pastor we have. And now we have a new bishop is will be very supportive of the EM. We are blessed.

.
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Where does the HMC teach that the OF is less of a source of Catholic orthodoxy?
 
Eilish_Maura said:
No - I suggested that if there are things (outside the ability to sing Gregorian chant) that hinders doing so then just don’t do it.

Since it is a suggestion (term we both use) there is the implication the suggestion could be substituted with other valid options.
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Actually you “suggested” that if the people in the congregation don’t appreciate Gregorian Chant, then leave it out. While many parishes have done just that, it’s not intended to be this way. Vatican II reminds us that "Gregorian chant is specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services."

In my early adulthood, I remember going from the solemn and sacred, haunting tune of “Tantum Ergo Sacramentum” to the tom-tom beat of “They Will Know We are Christians by Our Love”, in a period of 6 months.

The pipe organ at our Church was silenced & the tones of the guitar took over. As far as I know, neither the organ or the Tantum Ergo have been resurrected. I am curious to know whether Churches in other areas still use their Pipe Organ??? Do you still have a choir??
 
CradleCath said:
Actually you “suggested” that if the people in the congregation don’t appreciate Gregorian Chant, then leave it out. While many parishes have done just that, it’s not intended to be this way. Vatican II reminds us that "Gregorian chant is specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services."

Please show where I said that.

I believe you are adding to my actual post.
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Eilish_Maura said:
[Please show where I said that.

I believe you are adding to my actual post.
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No she is merely quoting Vatican documents. But I do have a question for you. What precisely is so hard about singing Gregorian chant? If by Gregorian chant you mean the daily Mass settings as outlined in the Liber Usualis with chant notation, you might have a point. If you mean the plainsong that was taught to us as children back in the late 50s and 60s, you would be dead wrong. My parish this Lent (as we do every Lent) chants the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin. Raises the roof sometimes. I have no doubt that we could add the Pater Noster as well. Same melodies, same words as I learned 40 almost 50 years ago. Oh, and did I say that this was within the context of an OF Mass?

Cradle: Yes we still sing the Tantum Ergo for Benediction as well as the entire Pange Lingua chant in Latin on Holy Thursday. Ours was one of the first cathedrals to be renovated after V II. They did indeed take out both the choir loft and the organ. In 1992, the choir loft was reinstalled as well as a brand new organ. Some things, like Gregorian chant, were not meant to be changed.
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“If there is no interest in it there is no reason to offer it per the MP.”

Seems like the interest should start with the priest. Wasn’t the MP for the priest’s benefit? If a priest is so Novus Ordo that he cares only for the rah-rah nature of the liturgy, then how does one approach him with Latin Mass request? I certainly wouldn’t want to spoil his day.
 
You really want a Latin Mass? No problem. Move to Rome. I’m sure that you can find one there. And you won’t have any problem finding space in the church as so few Romans actually go to church.

Matthew
 
“I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope designated a missal as the OF that is NOT a source of Catholic orthodoxy and makes a lie of Lex orandi, lex credendi.”

I don’t think calling the New Mass a fabrication (such as Cardinal Ratzinger did) exactly makes the OF a prime example of Catholic theology. That is not to say, however, the OF is not an accepted Catholic rite.
 
drafdog said:
You really want a Latin Mass? No problem. Move to Rome. I’m sure that you can find one there. And you won’t have any problem finding space in the church as so few Romans actually go to church.

Matthew
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Please. You reduce me to a caricature. I was 17 when the Mass was changed. I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was an altar boy until the end. I drive 25 miles and have driven 25 miles to attend a reverent NO in which the choir still sings in Latin. I’ve sung in that choir.

What does that make me? Chopped Liver? Drafdog there are still a whole lot of us baby boomers who are still alive…we’re not dead yet and you just acceed to this belief that all of us were just overjoyed back in 1969. I’m not dead nor was I overjoyed in 1969.
You don’t want a Latin Mass, fine. I have no problem with that. Remember that I didn’t have a choice in 69 - it was Simon and Garfunkle for my high school graduation…like it or not.
 
ProVobis said:
“I hope you are not suggesting that the Pope designated a missal as the OF that is NOT a source of Catholic orthodoxy and makes a lie of Lex orandi, lex credendi.”

I don’t think calling the New Mass a fabrication (such as Cardinal Ratzinger did) exactly makes the OF a prime example of Catholic theology. That is not to say, however, the OF is not an accepted Catholic rite.
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Well isn’t odd - that author made this ‘fabrication’ the ORDINARY FORM for the HMC??

Maybe the author’s use of ‘fabrication’ does not mean what some think it means.

BTW – where does this author address any problems with the THEOLOGY of the OF or ever state that it is NOT a source of Catholic orthodoxy??
 
SemperFidelis said:
:rolleyes:
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No call for Gregorian chant does not mean the congregation is against it or does not ‘appreciate it’ or whatever other insertion some try to make into my words.

If valid options provided by the HMC are used, and pride of place is not defined by her according to level of usage, there is no problem and no need to worry about a choir being capable of doing Gregorian chant.
 
Dauphin said:
Odd… they’re not executing or poisoning the new seminarians as they’re ordained, are they???
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Yes, they are. They are teaching them to veer away from Latin. It is the language of dead Romans. The language is dead. So too the Latin Mass. It is time to give it a decent burial.

The older priests outnumber the youngsters, and the youngsters don’t see these old duffers doing anything to preserve the Latin rite. It is up to the oldies, but they are not doing it.

It seems from the count, there is a latin mass for every one million catholics. Keep that number in your head. Yes, “lex orandi, lex credendi” is telling us that the latin mass is over, “Ite Missa est”. “Deo Gratias”.

Your Abbott
 
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