Divinci Code Movie

[rtiffany]

rtiffany:

Self Mortification (that was the term I was looking for earlier).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh
There were many devices used - whips, belts, hair shirts, all kinds of things to cause pain and suffering. I know, very strange, but this was big with the older churches and still is today - go figure

Thanks for the correct spelling -
Cilice
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The term cilice traditionally refers to the hairshirt, a garment or undergarment made of coarse cloth or animal hair. The word is pronounced “SILL-iss” (IPA /'sɪlɪs/), and derives from the Latin cilicium, a covering made of goat’s hair from Cilicia, a Roman province in south-east Asia Minor.

Such garments were worn at various times in the history of the Christian faith, for the purposes of the mortification of the flesh. Apart from the itchiness of the shirt’s coarse texture, when worn continuously it formed a breeding-ground for lice, which would have the effect of increasing the discomfort. Saints and monks are often reported to have worn one, and rich men sometimes wore one under their fine clothes as penance for adorning themselves, something forbidden in the Bible. For instance, in the Holbein portrait of Thomas More, a small portion of a hair shirt appears to be visible near the wrists and at the neck under the fine robes of the Lord Chancellor.

In more recent times the word has come to refer to a spiked metal belt or chain worn strapped tight around the upper thigh. This practice has existed in various parts of the Roman Catholic Church, but has become associated in the twentieth century with the Catholic personal prelature known as Opus Dei.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice

 

[rtiffany]

The Da Vinci Code falsely portrays Opus Dei as being focused on wealth and power. The reality is that Opus Dei is focused on helping people grow in their faith and integrate it with their ordinary activities, not on gaining power to implement some political agenda. Similarly Opus Dei and its members have great concern for the poor, which is an important element of the Christian faith.

“In The Da Vinci Code, Opus Dei members are falsely depicted murdering, lying, drugging people, and otherwise acting unethically, thinking that it is justified for the sake of God, the Church, or Opus Dei (p. 13, 29, 58-9, etc.).”

I totally dissagree - only two members of the Opus Dei was depicted in that light - one out of desparation to bring the group back to the Vatican (as the story tells) and one blindlessly following orders - thats it

 

[rtiffany]

To all those reading this thread - the book did NOT say that all Opus Dei members were murderous/greedy folks - only two. This did shed some light as to the workings and some brief history of Opus Dei, but thats about it - this part of the book was about two fictitious left wing members of an organization that really exists. The book is fiction with a few interesting facts (interesting for some of us) - just let it go!

 

[StubbleSpark]

The book presents as fact the idea that Jesus is just a man never died on the cross. If that is truly the case, then how DO we get to Heaven? Used to be a person could rely on the sacrifice of God made man for expiation of our sins. Now?

Also, How is Mary a goddess? Because she married Jesus? But Jesus was just a man, so that can’t be it. Is she just some random goddess?

If Mary is the true Messiah, then how could God have failed so miserably in His plan for salvation that for 2000 years only a small group of very evil men knew the truth, worked against the truth, and assured that NO ONE, not even themselves has access to eternity in Heaven. The motive is so self-defeating, it defies human logic. They had to have been demons.

How is a story that mentions incidentally in its telling that all 2000 years of Christendom has been doomed to Hell an interesting read?

Where will your soul be at the end of time? How do you know? Why do you believe it? How sure are you that your personal plan to salvation is actually the real deal? Are you willing to bet an eternity on it?

Wouldn’t you rather get some help? Don’t you think God doesn’t know you would want it? The Gnostics say you’re on your own. Good luck!

Do you really believe Dan Brown is such a fantastic writer, such a deep thinker, such a transcendent theologian that he is God’s Herald to Truth?

More importantly, who is the idiot who would fork over hard-earned payola to watch a Ron Howard movie? Wouldn’t taking an anti-depressant and sitting in the sun for a few minutes have roughly the same effect?

 

[rtiffany]

StubbleSpark:

The book presents as fact the idea that Jesus is just a man never died on the cross. If that is truly the case, then how DO we get to Heaven?

These are all GREAT question! Many religions have multiple ways to heaven/nervana. Some follow the bible literally and know the kingdom of heaven is ‘within’ - there are many paths.

Also, How is Mary a goddess? Because she married Jesus? But Jesus was just a man, so that can’t be it. Is she just some random goddess?

I think this is more personal opinion - I don’t think most folks see her as a true goddess, but as a very powerful and pinical part of the big story - YES!

If Mary is the true Messiah, then how could God have failed so miserably in His plan for salvation that for 2000 years only a small group of very evil men knew the truth, worked against the truth, and assured that NO ONE, not even themselves has access to eternity in Heaven. The motive is so self-defeating, it defies human logic. They had to have been demons.

I really don’t think anyone thinks Mary is the Messiah - she is important - way more important than she has been given credit for - even to the point of being the “deciples deciple”.

How is a story that mentions incidentally in its telling that all 2000 years of Christendom has been doomed to Hell an interesting read?

I did not get that from the book - my studies show that there have been some ‘secrets’ by the churches - but not that all christianity is doomed!

Where will your soul be at the end of time? How do you know?

How does anyone really know???

Why do you believe it? How sure are you that your personal plan to salvation is actually the real deal? Are you willing to bet an eternity on it?

I know MY belifs for myself and I know them to be true for me. For me, the kingdom is within, not somewhere else. Yes, I am willing to bet an eternity on it!

Wouldn’t you rather get some help? Don’t you think God doesn’t know you would want it? The Gnostics say you’re on your own. Good luck!

The Gnostics say that you have choices and are not sheep. There are always logical consequenses for your choices, no matter what they are. In the end, its your path and your choices. How you live that determines your heaven or hell - right here on earth (as the bible says).

Do you really believe Dan Brown is such a fantastic writer, such a deep thinker, such a transcendent theologian that he is God’s Herald to Truth?

He is ok - not the best, but ok.

More importantly, who is the idiot who would fork over hard-earned payola to watch a Ron Howard movie? Wouldn’t taking an anti-depressant and sitting in the sun for a few minutes have roughly the same effect?

Wow, its really getting croweded around the ‘judgment thrown’. Again, we all have choices - maybe the movie is not a good choice for you - it will be a great choice for me. I will deal with the consequenses, not you.

 

[CanoeCamper55]

It sounds like there’s a LOT of dog dirt in them there brownies! Please don’t eat the brownies (i.e. don’t see the movie)! Rather, set your heart and mind on holy things.

 

[StubbleSpark]

rtif,

You misunderstand my purpose.

Gnostics, the people whose teachings support Dan Brown’s work, believe salvation comes from private meditation and study.

This sounds swell. But it is problematic. Can you see how?

By hyper-individualizing the process for salvation, Gnostics doom to Hell all those who are intellectually and spiritually incapable of personally fathoming the means for salvation.

This snide, ruthless elitist salvation philosophy damns nearly everyone you know, including yourself.

This is because Gnosticism offers NO degree of certainty. In other words, you can think and meditate all day everyday and still have no idea if you are even going in the right direction. This “enlightened” philosophy keeps all its practitioners completely in the dark everyday of their life. This violates our understanding of a loving shepherd God who, out of caring and love, guides us through the rocky terrain of life to His home.

In Gnosticism, you are not supposed to be certain.

You are also not supposed to share what you know because Gnosticism focuses on SECRET knowledge. The point is, salvation is what you as an individual know. So what other people know or have found out is irrelevant.

At its core, this is antiprogressive. Not UN progressive, but actively ANTIprogressive. Think how differently our society and culture would have grown if its theological and philosophical basis had been as elitist, cut-throat, and anti-progressive as Gnosticism.

If a faith truly comes from God, then it would accommodate all types of souls. In Catholicism, we have the sole mystics, hermits, and anchorites who practice personal devotions through meditation and quiet study. But we also have more “team-oriented” approaches through families, parishes, and monasteries.

In Catholicism, you have a choice. In Gnosticism, you have none.

The points I made in my original post were the natural outcomes of the many points Dan Brown makes in his book. If Jesus is not God and if he did not die for our sins then yes, all of Christianity has been in vain. A complete shambles and hoax because the center of our faith, Jesus the Christ, is also an overblown myth.

Finally, I take personal issue with the fact that you judge me for judging Gnosticism – as if your personal act of judgment is somehow sacrosanct and mine is not.

Why? Is it because I am me and you are you? Are you somehow so superior that an appeal to sincere discussion on facts and logic is somehow beneath you?

Judgments are unavoidable. Error is not. You said it yourself, Gnosticism and the ideas it proposes is nothing new. It was abandoned by history for very good reasons – reasons that assure your freedom. By siding with Gnosticism, you give it your personal stamp of approval. You also disapprove of every faith in the world that abhors Gnosticism and Gnostic ideas.

Your words are not sincere. I judge you as being my created equal and therefore not so above me that you can impiously judge my judging. How can you say believing Catholics convert are “mindless sheep”?

Oh yeah, you’re not judgmental at all

 

[rtiffany]

StubbleSpark:

rtif,

You misunderstand my purpose.

Gnostics, the people whose teachings support Dan Brown’s work, believe salvation comes from private meditation and study.

didnt joshua say that the kingdom of god is within??

This snide, ruthless elitist salvation philosophy damns nearly everyone you know, including yourself.

still sounds very judgemental - i cannot go there - i choose not to live a damned life, so i don’t?

This is because Gnosticism offers NO degree of certainty. In other words, you can think and meditate all day everyday and still have no idea if you are even going in the right direction.
is there TRULY anything that gives that certainty that we know of? this is where faith comes in isnt it??

This “enlightened” philosophy keeps all its practitioners completely in the dark everyday of their life.
my guess that those who live thier life that way would dissagree - we are all different and have different paths - they can all lead to god.?

You are also not supposed to share what you know because Gnosticism focuses on SECRET knowledge.
this sounds like the beginnings of christianity - wasn’t gods name a secret??

The point is, salvation is what you as an individual know. So what other people know or have found out is irrelevant.
this is very contradictory to what you have stated earlier - i would completely agree with this except the ‘irrelevant’ part - all people have different paths. i have found your statement to be true in many christian beliefs - they don’t care what others have found. few earth religions or non christian religions believe this - they take it ALL in!?

more to come

 

[rtiffany]

here is the rest - enjoy!

At its core, this is antiprogressive. Not UN progressive, but actively ANTIprogressive. Think how differently our society and culture would have grown if its theological and philosophical basis had been as elitist, cut-throat, and anti-progressive as Gnosticism.
that is what alot of christianity is based on - holey wars - how many people have died in the name of god? how many cultures have been destroyed for a holy cause - you have just summed up much of the policy of the early churches - spanish inquisition???

If a faith truly comes from God,
i thought your faith came from YOU?
then it would accommodate all types of souls. In Catholicism, we have the sole mystics, hermits, and anchorites who practice personal devotions through meditation and quiet study. But we also have more “team-oriented” approaches through families, parishes, and monasteries.
very cool - every religion should be this way - in MY opinion ?

In Catholicism, you have a choice. In Gnosticism, you have none.
i don’t know if i would go that far - in any religion you have the choices they give you. if you are catholic, do you have the choice to worship other gods? i think not! i do not know that much about the gnostics as a religion to comment.?

The points I made in my original post were the natural outcomes of the many points Dan Brown makes in his book. If Jesus is not God and if he did not die for our sins then yes, all of Christianity has been in vain. A complete shambles and hoax because the center of our faith, Jesus the Christ, is also an overblown myth.
but the book is fiction - why worry about it? did the book say that joshua did not die as the christians believe? it seemed more to pose a thought that he and mary were married … ?

Finally, I take personal issue with the fact that you judge me for judging Gnosticism – as if your personal act of judgment is somehow sacrosanct and mine is not.
most of my comments deal with the fact that everyone wants to judge - why not let people be as they need to be - let them follow the path they need to without judgemtn - i think thats even in the bible? no need for judgements, there are just opinions and ways of life - everyone has their own and should be allowed to live it, thats all ?

Are you somehow so superior that an appeal to sincere discussion on facts and logic is somehow beneath you?
i am about as non-superior as they come. i love a good theological discussion. for whatever reason, the discussion turned to ridicule and judgement on a fictitions book that has people contemplating other ideas. ?

By siding with Gnosticism, you give it your personal stamp of approval. You also disapprove of every faith in the world that abhors Gnosticism and Gnostic ideas.
that is your assumption - not my truth. i don’t believe i said much of anything about gnosticism - again, i do not know that much about it, but because i might agree with a theory, or become intrigued by a theory, doesnt mean i take sides - i am a curious person and i love to explore - i also love to find things out for myself.?

How can you say believing Catholics convert are “mindless sheep”?
again - i know this is something i would not say about any religion - i do not religion bash - i look for truths.?

my intentions are not to judge - i do point out the judgements and am surprised by them at times. religions that say they follow a doctrine that they consistantly contradict are very purplexing to me … ?

i love theology and every thing associated with it - i love god and every thing associated with it - i love life and everything associated with it! enjoy?

 

[Chele]

I don’t believe it will be bad for the Catholic Church, although some Hollywood idiot may try to attack the Catholic Church Directly. I think that this book actually shows how the ideas that the Catholic Church commits murder to defend itself was false. A disturbed Catholic Convert was made to commit all the murders in this book when he was directed by a third party to do so.

 

[David_Zampino]

Michael038:

Is The Divinci Code Movie another attempt to attack the Catholic Church?

I don’t plan to see the film, but no. I think that the book was a direct attack on the Church, but I think that the movie is essentially what happens in Hollywood when a best-selling novel sells a gazillion copies. Ron Howard is directing the picture, and IMHO, he has not directed a poorly made film in his life. I hope that there is a “work of fiction” disclaimer.

Blessings,