Divine Liturgy

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The Catholic Church does not seem to agree with you on this
What’re you talking about? The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope has immediate and full jurisdiction on all the Catholic faithful. All of them.

The Patriarchs are not equal to the Popes.

This is Catholic teaching.

The fact that the Pope is tolerating the Melkite Patriarch’s heresies means absolutely nothing. John Paul II is a very holy man, very well learned, and very articulate in his writings and theological teachings. However, as a Pope he’s a failure, ever loathe to discipline all but the most extreme dissenters. We need to judge His Beatitude’s teachings by the dogmas of the Catholic Church, not by some misguided toleration by a lax, but holy, Pope.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
What’re you talking about? The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope has immediate and full jurisdiction on all the Catholic faithful. All of them.

The Patriarchs are not equal to the Popes.

This is Catholic teaching.
No where has the Melkite Patriarch disagreed with any of this.

Lets see, the newest bishop for the USA was appointed by Rome… So I am still waiting for either proof or a retraction of your slander.
The fact that the Pope is tolerating the Melkite Patriarch’s heresies means absolutely nothing. John Paul II is a very holy man, very well learned, and very articulate in his writings and theological teachings. However, as a Pope he’s a failure, ever loathe to discipline all but the most extreme dissenters. We need to judge His Beatitude’s teachings by the dogmas of the Catholic Church, not by some misguided toleration by a lax, but holy, Pope.
Wow, what a statement, “as a Pope he’s a failure”, the Pope is a failure… Wow, I am speachless… And your a Catholic?
 
No where has the Melkite Patriarch disagreed with any of this.
Go here, and begin reading from Post # 30.
Wow, what a statement, “as a Pope he’s a failure”, the Pope is a failure… Wow, I am speachless… And your a Catholic?
What’s wrong with what I wrote? This Pope’s pontificate has been a disaster. Catholics are more confused than ever.He’s a holy man, but a toothless lion. I don’t doubt he will one day be canonized, but it won’t be because he was a good administrator.

Saint Celestine V was a holy man, but also a failure as a Pope.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
No where has the Melkite Patriarch disagreed with any of this.
Go here, and begin reading from Post # 30.
I will only comment on this.

Fr Ambrose’s comments are just that, his comments. I would question their truthfulness as the Melkites hold to what all Byzantine Catholics do.

It is not worth argueing his comments as he has no authority to make them and I, and all the Byzantine Catholics I know (including many Melkites) do not agree with them.

You can not use an orthodox priest’s opinions as proof of some slander you chose to toss out here.

As for the issues he raises, you know for a fact that it is more complex than that. We have had these discussions before. We may not use the same language but in the end we have the same beliefs.
 
All of this just because I asked which Divine Liturgy is going to be celebrated on Christmas Day. :ehh:
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
This is hypothetically true, but usually not the case in practice.

In my own experience at least, Orthodox liturgies look more . . . “authentic” whereas the Eastern Catholic ones look . . . I dunno, like something is missing.

Thing are getting better though. I’ve seen pictures of Melkite Catholic liturgies, in the USA, that have blown me away.

If only the Melkite Patriarch wasn’t a quasi-schismatic . . .

😃
Looks like a grenade winternet.com/~mikelr/flame65.html
to me…
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
You Eastern Catholics really need to lighten up…
What makes you think you can dish out insults and try to brush the response off with ‘Lighten up’. Not good enough really.
 
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ByzCath:
Santa??? Don’t you mean St Nicholas?
David,

I checked. Saint Nicholas won’t deliver glasses - something to do with a non-competition clause with optometrists; Santa has no such scruples 😃

Many years,

Neil
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
What’s wrong with what I wrote? This Pope’s pontificate has been a disaster. Catholics are more confused than ever.He’s a holy man, but a toothless lion. I don’t doubt he will one day be canonized, but it won’t be because he was a good administrator.

Saint Celestine V was a holy man, but also a failure as a Pope.
I disagree on this. The more heavy handed an administrator is the greater the danger of outright schism. Schism usually causes more confusion not less. Just look historically at the Great Western Schism, or in our own day that confusion caused by the SSPX. Indeed, schisms tend to last longer even than heresies. The schism of the Orthodox Church is ongoing with no immediate end in sight. I think that JPII has shown prudential wisdom in dealing with all through pleas of unity rather than administrative and punitive measures. Remember the good sheperd leaves the 99 to go in search of the 1 lost lamb. In this, the Pope has shown himself to be the Vicar of Christ. Certainly, there is confusion for the 99, but the Mystical Body of Christ cannot say to the 1 lost lamb: “We do not need you”. Let faith and the sacraments carry the 99 into perseverance and let us pray for those who are lost and confused.

Pax,
Keith
 
Eric,

This is the principal document that Father Ambrose cited in the thread to which you linked and on which you have based your insulting comments with regard to my Patriarch and his predecessors.

From: EWTN
PEOPLES SERVED: Melkites
DATE OF SEPARATION: 1054
DATE OF REUNION: 1724
WHERE FOUND: Near East, Africa, the Americas, Australia
LITURGICAL LANGUAGE: Greek with Arabic (parts in English, Spanish, & Portuguese)
DEPENDENT UPON: Melkite Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, of Alexandria, and Jerusalem
COMMENTS: This is one of the most disaffected groups among the Eastern Rite Catholics. Unlike other Byzantine Catholics, this group is headed by a patriarch who is accustomed to seeing himself as one of the equals among whom the Pope of Rome (the Patriarch of the West) is agreed to be the first. The current patriarch provides them with strong leadership in objecting to what they see as Rome’s violations of the terms of the Union. Chief among these is the ordaining of married men. While no Eastern Rite permits or has ever permitted the marriage of ordained men, the tradition among them (as with the Orthodox) is to permit the ordaining of men who have already been married, although they favor a celibate episcopate. (The marriage of ordained clergy appears to have been a Protestant innovation in Christendom.) Rome understands her acquiescence in this tradition to apply only in the homeland of the Rite; most Eastern Rite Catholics rather expected to be allowed to carry all their traditions, including this one, to the lands to which they were immigrating. Disputes among the indigenous clergy and the immigrant Byzantine clergy have often resulted in whole parishes leaving the Catholic communion to be received back into Orthodox folds. (See the COMMENTS for the Carpatho-Ruthenians below.) Other sources of disagreement are the Immaculate Conception, Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, Purgatory, and the Filioque, and to a lesser extent remarriage after divorce; in short, all the matters that remain primary points of disagreement between Orthodox and Catholics. The terms of the original agreement are clear that agreement with Rome on these matters is expected.
Firstly, later in that same thread, Maccabees pointed out that the info on the referenced site was drawn from:
(EWTN’s words - not Maccabee’s) Easily one of the best of discussions of the Eastern Churches (the Catholic Churches in volume one, the dissident churches in volume two) is Donald Attwater’s CHURCHES OF THE CHRISTIAN EAST (Milwaukee: Bruce Publishing Company, 1935-1937-1947).
(continued)
 
Sadly, Attwater’s work, although containing some excellent historical information on the Eastern Churches, was a work of Latin triumphalism typical of its day. Additionally, putting aside for the moment the blatant inaccuracy of the author’s editorial commentary, there are blatant errors in what passes for factual information in the material above.
While no Eastern Rite permits or has ever permitted the marriage of ordained men, the tradition among them (as with the Orthodox) is to permit the ordaining of men who have already been married, although they favor a celibate episcopate. (The marriage of ordained clergy appears to have been a Protestant innovation in Christendom.)
That is absolutely historically inaccurate. So much so and I think well-known, even to you, that I am not going to bother belaboring it. “(F)avor a celibate episcopate”? - such has been the norm for centuries; it is not favored, it is!
Disputes among the indigenous clergy and the immigrant Byzantine clergy have often resulted in whole parishes leaving the Catholic communion to be received back into Orthodox folds.
This comment has no applicability to the Melkite Church, as there is no record of any Melkite parish in the US returning to Orthodoxy as a consequence of the issues over clerical celibacy (or for any other reason), in part because virtually all Melkite missioners to this country during the late 19th and first half of the 20th century were monastics; almost none were patriarchal clergy, among whom would have been any married presbyters.
All such documented instances occurred in the instances of Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes.
this group is headed by a patriarch who is accustomed to seeing himself as one of the equals among whom the Pope of Rome (the Patriarch of the West) is agreed to be the first.
This line mixes apples and oranges. The Pope, in his capacity as Patriarch of the West is “primus inter pares”; the Melkite Patriarch and all of the other Patriarchs are, in fact, his equals in that capacity. The Pope’s exercise of authority over other than the Latin Church is solely in his capacity as Pope.
Other sources of disagreement are the Immaculate Conception, Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, Purgatory, and the Filioque, and to a lesser extent remarriage after divorce; in short, all the matters that remain primary points of disagreement between Orthodox and Catholics. The terms of the original agreement are clear that agreement with Rome on these matters is expected.
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was not defined until a century and a half post the “original agreement with Rome”, making it unlikely that it was considered or enumerated in the terms of such.

Indulgences are not a matter of dogma, last I recollect - additionally, they are not and have never been a concept within Eastern theological praxis. Similarly, Western conceptualization of Purgatory is foreign to Eastern theology; the Eastern understanding and expression of post-mortem purification of the soul has never embraced the purgative process described by the West.

See also, as I believe Maccabees already posted in the other thread, Primer of Melkite Beliefs & Traditions, in which you can find a full statement with respect to the Magisterium and our acceptance/adherence to it.

I await your apology to my Patriarch.

Many years,

Neil
 
DV:

As Neil has pointed out, the head of the Melkite Church is a Patriarch and, as such, is equal in rank to the Patriarch of the West. Many times Latin Rite Catholics think everything the pope does he does as the pope, and this thinking colors reality for them. We have to realize that the Pope is, first the Bishop of Rome (although the administration of the See is left primarily to the Auxiliary Bishops), second he is the Patriarch of the West and 95% of what he does is done in that capacity. finally. He is the Pope, the Head of the Church and only about 1-2% of his actions actually fall into that category (promulgation of Canon law, for example).

All Patriarchs hold the same rank (above that of Cardinal) and, as such, the Melkite Patriarch holds the same rank as the Patriarch of the West, although there is a “primacy of honor” that is given to the Apostolic See.

When the Melkites needed a new bishop for the United States or, less recently, for Canada, the Holy Father made the choice based upon recommendations from the Synod of Bishops of the Melkite Church. This was an action of the Pope because the Patriarch, while he regulates the Liturgy outside his “sphere of governance” does not exercise oversight in the areas of the diaspora.

Two other points; while Fr. Ambrose seems well meaning, he is not Melkite and, therefore, cannot speak with any certainty to the status of the Melkite Church or our Patriarch (whom I have met, and who is a most holy man). Taking your cue from him would be like learning about the Baptists from a Morman. Interesting, but of dubious reliability.

And, finally, you have to remember that we Melkites see ourselves in the role that Rome has give us – as a bridge to the Orthodox. As such it is our Patriarch’s *responsiblity *to speak to issues within the Church that would further alienate the Orthodox and which would make reunion more difficult.

Deacon Ed
 
No aplogy of mine is forthcoming.

I understand that not everything the Pope does is in his capacity of Supreme Pontiff od the Church Universal.

But to say that the Patriarch of Antioch is equal to the Pope is heresy.

He isn’t the Pope’s equal. He’s subordinate to him, as is every other Catholic. The Pope can depose him if he wants to, etc. He has immediate jusrisdiction, as Pope, over any and all Patriarchs. Period.

The Melkite Patriarch’s statements just a few years ago contradicting this are heresy.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
No aplogy of mine is forthcoming.

I understand that not everything the Pope does is in his capacity of Supreme Pontiff od the Church Universal.

But to say that the Patriarch of Antioch is equal to the Pope is heresy.

He isn’t the Pope’s equal. He’s subordinate to him, as is every other Catholic. The Pope can depose him if he wants to, etc. He has immediate jusrisdiction, as Pope, over any and all Patriarchs. Period.

The Melkite Patriarch’s statements just a few years ago contradicting this are heresy.
DV: I submit that you didn’t read what I wrote. The Melkite Patriarch is equivalent to the Patriarch of the West. The Melkite Patriarch is the head of the Melkite Church, the Patriarch of the West isn’t, nor is the Pope. This is why, following the election of Patriarch Gregory III he immediately petitioned the Pope to enter into (actually, to continue) communion. The Pope immediately accepted the petition and, thereby, the Melkites were in communion with Rome and with all the Churches that are in communion with Rome.

While it is theoretically possible that a pope could depose a patriarch – it wouldn’t work. The Church of that patriarch would simply cease being in communion with Rome. Just because Latin ecclesiology permits a thing doesn’t mean that the thing should be done.

This whole issue of ecclesiology is still developing as evidenced by the pope’s call to help define the role of the papacy going forward. If, indeed, we want the Orthodox to be in communion with us the historical accretions of juridic authority will have to be mitigated to simply authority over the Western Churches except in cases where the unity of the entire Church is threatened, and even the is will have to be very limited in scope. As we’ve seen with the case of the SSPX, having authority and being able to enforce it are two different things.

Deacon Ed
 
Thank you again everyone! I went today and it was great, I love the Divine Liturgy, even more then the Tridentine Mass! It was celebrated mostly in Ukranian with some prayers, antiphons, and all of the readings in English. I can’t wait to go to another Divine Liturgy!
 
Psalm45:9:
Thank you again everyone! I went today and it was great, I love the Divine Liturgy, even more then the Tridentine Mass! It was celebrated mostly in Ukranian with some prayers, antiphons, and all of the readings in English. I can’t wait to go to another Divine Liturgy!
Going on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, the Divine Liturgy you experienced was the one from St. Basil the Great. This Divine Liturgy has much longer prayers that only the priest says. Moreover, the words in the prayers are very descriptive and beautiful.

Our Divine Liturgy for Christmas as on Christmas Eve. We had Great Vespers first, then the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great and then Great Compline. The entire Christmas Liturgy took less than 2 hours. (and being an altar server, it sure didn’t seemt hat long for me).

I am glad that you were enriched by the experience of the Divine Liturgy and hope you return again.

God IS with Us!
Edwin
 
Edwin,

Just a small correction… The Vespers Liturgy on Christmas Eve would have been that of St. Basil, but on Christmas Day is would have been that of St. John Chrysostom.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Edwin,

Just a small correction… The Vespers Liturgy on Christmas Eve would have been that of St. Basil, but on Christmas Day is would have been that of St. John Chrysostom.

Deacon Ed
Deacon Ed,
That WAS what I tried to say.
Thanks.
 
The Melkite Patriarch is equivalent to the Patriarch of the West.
Nope!

According to the dogma of the Catholic Church:
Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
As James Likoudis puts it:
The ecclesiastical institution and organization of patriarchates was peculiar to the Eastern tradition and though certainly acknowledged by the Roman See in the first Millennium as a modality of collegiality, the Roman Pontiffs would never accept the reduction of their Universal Primacy to a mere “patriarchate” as did later medieval Byzantine dissidents who were to regard the Pope as the “first of equals” in a Pentarchy governing the Church.
Just because Latin ecclesiology permits a thing doesn’t mean that the thing should be done.
This is *Catholic * ecclesiology I speak of, not Latin.
 
DV:

As soon as you use the term “pontiff” you are speaking of the role of the Pope. I’m not sure where you are getting your ecclesiology, but it is not correct. Let’s get to the “nuts and bolts” here.

From the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches:
CAN. 55 According to the most ancient tradition of the Church, already recognized by the first ecumenical councils, the patriarchal institution has flourished in the Church. Therefore, special honor is to be accorded to the patriarches of the Eastern Churches, who each presides over his respective patriarchal Church as its father and head.
This is precisely what is said of the pope in his role as Patriarch of the West (which is one of his titles). That is, as patriarch they have the same function…
CAN. 56 A patriarch is a bishop who has power over all the bishops including metropolitans and other Christian faithful of the Church over which he presides, according to the norm of law approved by the supreme authority of the Church.
Now we see the role of the pope (as opposed to the Patriarch of the West) as the “supreme authority.”
CAN. 58 Patriarchs of Eastern Churches preceed all bishops of any degree everywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of precedence established by the Roman Pontiff.
In *Orientalium Ecclesiarum *we read:
  1. Though some of the patriarchates of the Eastern Churches are of earlier and some of later date, nonetheless all are equal in respect of patriarchal dignity, without however prejudice to the legitimately established precedence of honor. [Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem]
  2. By the most ancient tradition of the Church the patriarchs of the Eastern Churches are to be accorded special honor, seeing that each is set over his patriarchate as father and head.
This Sacred Council, therefore, determines that their rights and privileges should be re-established in accordance with the ancient tradition of each of the Churches and the decrees of the ecumenical councils.

The rights and privileges in question are those that obtained in the time of union between East and West; though they should be adapted somewhat to modern conditions.

The patriarchs with their synods are the highest authority for all business of the patriarchate, including the right of establishing new eparchies and of nominating bishops of their rite within the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, without prejudice to the inalienable right of the Roman Pontiff to intervene in individual cases.
Again, the supreme authority is in reference to the role of pope, not that of patriarch. As Patriarch of the West the pope is *primus inter pares – *first among equals (regardless of what James Likoudis says).

The triple tiara of the pope (no longer used) had three layers: one represented his role as the Bishop of Rome, one as the Patriarch of the West, and one as the Supreme Pontiff.

Brother John M. Samaha, S.M., has addressed this in an article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review where he writes:
Gradually the West lost sight of the distinction between the pope’s patriarchal and supreme pontifical offices. After the split the papal function as supreme pontiff was no longer effective or recognized in the East. The West forgot that most of the pope’s authority over the Catholic Church rested in his patriarchal function for the West, not his supreme pontifical function.
Deacon Ed
 
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