Divorce rate in NFP couples

[lifeisbeautiful]

“Sacrifice and suffering are a part of happiness on Earth.” That sounds like the words of someone who never really suffered. I would advise you to say this to children who are being molested, to North Koreans whose government tests biological and chemical weapons on them, to young girls sold into sexual slavery etc. Somehow I doubt that for them suffering is a part of being happy.

Staying together because of a technicality doesn’t make sense. I don’t see why God would want people to stay together if all it will do is make them very unhappy.

The “no divorce” rule is extremely insensitive toward human beings, especially because it doesn’t just probhit divorce, but it prohibits remarriage by those people who, through no fault of their own, were abandoned by their spouses. It also prohibits abused women from finding a better man to marry.

I agree that sometimes divorce is wrong. For instance: abandoning your family to marry someone else because you feel like it is wrong. But staying together when you hate each other and when your children have grown up and no longer need you is just as senseless.

I did not come up with the concept on my own… BTW, let me make a clarification, I am talking about true happiness, not empty/frivolous one.

Would you say Pope JPII never suffered? Here are his words:

“Happy is the person who succeeds in making God’s light shine in the poverty of a suffering or diminished life!”

(in his address to the sick and disabled he said)
“Precisely in the most beautiful period of life, characterized in man by a particular vigour and dynamism, you find yourselves weak and without the strength necessary to carry out so many activities which the other boys and girls of your own age can do.
In effect, many people of your age have come on foot today to Monte del Gozo — the Mount of Joy — where we will meet this evening. You are not in a position to walk, but — we could say it in a paradox — you have arrived before anyone at the “mount of joy”. Yes, because Calvary, where Jesus died and rose again and where you are with him, is, looked at with the eyes of faith, the mount of joy, the hill of perfect happiness, the summit of hope.”

There are other saints that mentioned such notions too, aside from Scripture that mentions things such as:
Jesus said, “whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”
We are asked to embrace the cross in order to be with God, and the only way to true happiness is through God… so…
Anyways… about the “no divorce” rule being insensitive… well… Marriage is a sacrament that cannot be taken lightly. It takes hard work from both sides to be true to the vows of being there in good times and in bad… etc. I think it is insensitive for one or both parties to go back on their promise to each other and not be there for each other, in good times and bad. Love is something that needs to be worked on always, its not a random thing that floats in the air between two people and that is out of their control. The treating of marriage as something casual, something that can be broken and redone is insensitive and disrespectful. Anyways, God let us know beforehand, that marriage is not something that can be undone on Earth. It is not something we are surprised with after we tie the knot. We have to keep that in mind when deciding to marry someone and making that commitment.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Excuse my ignorance, what does NFP stand for?

 

[SemperJase]

just5kids:

Increased communication will lead to a stronger marriage, you cannot but agree.

I do disagree. What about people who never use NFP and don’t contracept? They don’t have the communication you speak of.

I don’t know there is a link between quantity of communication and good marriages.

And similarly, no one person in the relationship is passing off the responsibility for family planning on the other. Both are responsible for the knowledge and decision-making.

This is a mischaracterization of all the marriages where both couples agree to use ABC. Just because a man uses a condom doesn’t mean the woman is not included in the decision to use it.

Increased marital relations=better marriage. In addition, in truly practicing NFP, the couple is instructed to pray before deciding whether to try to conceive or delay. Increased mutual prayer surely leads to better marriage. How can you argue with that?

Sounds great in theory. How much is mutual prayer actually increased by NFP?

I’m skeptical of the CCLI study on NFP. There are problems with the methodology.

First it was done by a survey. Surveys are notoriously inaccurate for the reason that respondent’s answers cannot be verified. For example NFP practitioners report they have sex more often but researchers don’t know if the respondants’ answers were accurate.

Second, this survey indicates that an unusally high number of surveys were returned. Another red flag that indicates the respondants were self-selecting. In other words there is a likelihood that the people most interested in advancing NFP responded. Not exactly an unbiased result.

Yes, I’m skeptical that NFP is a magical solution for a healthy and lasting marriage. It is reminiscent of a famous evangelical preacher who says that following Jesus will give you an easier life when Jesus made no such promise. In fact, Jesus says the opposite. His followers will be persecuted.

I don’t like it when people try to use false statistics to denigrate Christianity (like the lie that Christians divorce at the same rate as secularists). I also don’t like it when Christians use the same tactics to prove their side.

 

[vluvski]

lifeisbeautiful:

Hi vluvski!
Do you mean the “not” are using the pill or other forms of ABC or are they simply not using NFP?

Also, how do they measure devoutness?

The article didn’t say what they meant by using or not using NFP. I agree there is a big difference between those who practice no form of family planning at all and those who use ABC. The implication was that non-NFP used ABC, but it really didn’t specify. One could argue that not practicing any technique for family planning is still natural family planning, and this is kind of what I assumed.

The measure of devoutness was frequency of attendance at Mass (never to daily), frequency of going to Confession (never to weekly), frequency of prayer (never to more often than daily), and frequency of prayer as a couple.

You’re right, it doesn’t exclude those people whose Mass attendance and prayer life suggest devoutness when their day to day actions prove otherwise, but the sampling is still better than comparing NFP users to the general population.

No matter how you do it, it is impossible to compare non-ABC to ABC without some other factor interfering. Even if you took a sampling of non-religious NFP users (the green types, for example), you would still find that the commitment to an ideal demonstrated by the use of NFP already sets them apart from like-minded peers who prefer to use ABC. However, just because the people who use NFP are already less likely to divorce doesn’t mean that NFP isn’t helping them improve their marriage and stay together happily.

 

[RyanL]

malachi_a_serva:

Excuse my ignorance, what does NFP stand for?

If you go to the top of the Family Life sub-forum, you’ll see a “list of acronyms” thread - all of the acronyms used here are posted there.

To answer your question, though, NFP = Natural Family Planning.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

vluvski:

However, just because the people who use NFP are already less likely to divorce doesn’t mean that NFP isn’t helping them improve their marriage and stay together happily.

Excellent point, I totally agree, especially if NFP is being used correctly (ie for the right reasons).

Its kind of like saying that frequent confession or frequently receiving other sacraments helps your marriage. ( I personally believe it can). Just because people who are more likely to frequent the sacraments tend to be people that are less likely to divorce does not mean that the sacraments don’t help. Frequenting the sacraments (correctly) helps you be a better person all around, and that includes your married life. Doing what is right for the right reasons, whether it be NFP vs ABC or any other marriage related decision, will always be better for the marriage, I believe, whether the people involved realize it or not.

 

[maryfullofgrace]

"

Staying together because of a technicality doesn’t make sense. I don’t see why God would want people to stay together if all it will do is make them very unhappy.

ildren have grown up and no longer need you is just as senseless.

Thank you Askeptic. I agree and that is exactly what I meant. Why stay together if it makes one anothers life miserable?
I just do NOT believe that is what God wants or intended for marriage.

Too many devout Catholics allow themselves to be walked all over and treated horribly b/c their spouse knows that a divorce won’t EVEr happen.

Now do I think that American’s get too many divorces? Yes
Do I think Marriage takes work and divorce should be the absolute LAST resort? Yes

But I still think no one should fear that they are going to be condemned if they get divorced.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

maryfullofgrace:

Thank you Askeptic. I agree and that is exactly what I meant. Why stay together if it makes one anothers life miserable?
I just do NOT believe that is what God wants or intended for marriage.

Too many devout Catholics allow themselves to be walked all over and treated horribly b/c their spouse knows that a divorce won’t EVEr happen.

Now do I think that American’s get too many divorces? Yes
Do I think Marriage takes work and divorce should be the absolute LAST resort? Yes

But I still think no one should fear that they are going to be condemned if they get divorced.

I’m a bit confused over what you find to be wrong. The people who do not realize they need to get out of the relationship? The Church does allow for separation if its is the only way:
“1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble. 159”
If that is what you mean, then people need to be more educated in this area.
If what you disagree with is our Church’s teaching that marriage is indissoluble, then that is a whole different subject. Marriage is indissoluble, period. Now, based on that, we can make many decisions that will affect our marriage life. If we make decisions ignoring that, we could be on our way to being miserable, but not because of the fact that marriage is indissoluble, but because of our own faulty decisions (or those of our spouse). Then, the problem isn’t the fact that marriage is indissoluble, the problem would be us, our spouse or both. It may be a sad situation if we have worked hard at the marriage, but our spouse makes it impossible, but that would not be solved by saying that marriage is soluble.

 

[just5kids]

SemperJase:

I do disagree. What about people who never use NFP and don’t contracept? They don’t have the communication you speak of.

I don’t know there is a link between quantity of communication and good marriages.

This is a mischaracterization of all the marriages where both couples agree to use ABC. Just because a man uses a condom doesn’t mean the woman is not included in the decision to use it.

Sounds great in theory. How much is mutual prayer actually increased by NFP?

I’m skeptical of the CCLI study on NFP. There are problems with the methodology.

First it was done by a survey. Surveys are notoriously inaccurate for the reason that respondent’s answers cannot be verified. For example NFP practitioners report they have sex more often but researchers don’t know if the respondants’ answers were accurate.

Second, this survey indicates that an unusally high number of surveys were returned. Another red flag that indicates the respondants were self-selecting. In other words there is a likelihood that the people most interested in advancing NFP responded. Not exactly an unbiased result.

Yes, I’m skeptical that NFP is a magical solution for a healthy and lasting marriage. It is reminiscent of a famous evangelical preacher who says that following Jesus will give you an easier life when Jesus made no such promise. In fact, Jesus says the opposite. His followers will be persecuted.

I don’t like it when people try to use false statistics to denigrate Christianity (like the lie that Christians divorce at the same rate as secularists). I also don’t like it when Christians use the same tactics to prove their side.

I am not espousing the CCLI statistics, and indeed, I haven’t read them. I am, however, familiar with their reasons advocating NFP for healthier marriages, and I agree with them because they have been accurate for me. I stated that my evidence is only antecdotal; however, I took exception to the implication that because the study had problems with methodology, there is no causal link between NFP and healthier marriages. Like you, I do not think NFP is a magic solution; as faithful Catholic, I can’t say I believe in magic solutions of any sort! I am, however, pointing out that NFP can and does in many cases improve marriage. To completely reject any such link because of bad methodology in one study is just as wrong as manipulating statistics to prove an erroneous causal link.
As for me, I would just like others to consider NFP for what it is: a great gift, in keeping with the teachings of Holy Mother Church, completely without chemical side effects, and in my experience, greatly enriching for marriage. Don’t toss it aside because of statistical innaccuracies, that’s like tossing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[just5kids]

“Sacrifice and suffering are a part of happiness on Earth.” That sounds like the words of someone who never really suffered. I would advise you to say this to children who are being molested, to North Koreans whose government tests biological and chemical weapons on them, to young girls sold into sexual slavery etc. Somehow I doubt that for them suffering is a part of being happy.

Staying together because of a technicality doesn’t make sense. I don’t see why God would want people to stay together if all it will do is make them very unhappy…
But staying together when you hate each other and when your children have grown up and no longer need you is just as senseless.

The idea that “God wants us to be happy” is not based on our Christian faith; the Gospels do not speak of Jesus’s desire for our happiness here on earth. Which isn’t to say happiness is wrong, but it is not why we are here on earth: we are here to know, love and serve the Lord. Further, we are to lead those with whose care we are charged to heaven: our children, naturally, but also our spouses. We must “love into wholeness those he has put in our paths.” (that’s not scripture, but a great book by Greg Popcak, “God Help Me, These People are Driving Me Nuts”). Am I saying be abused at the hands of evil? No, but I think if one seeks mere temporary happiness instead of fulfillment and meaning, one will never be truly satisfied nor grow closer to one’s eternal salvation.

 

[SemperJase]

just5kids:

Don’t toss it aside because of statistical innaccuracies, that’s like tossing out the baby with the bath water.

I want to be clear that I’m not tossing it aside. Clearly for some people here it has blessed their marriage.

At the same time NFP advocates have unquestionably overstated their case on this board; some have even gone so far as to claim that all marital problems can be credited to the use of ABC. The claim obviously exaggeration on its face.

I concede that NFP is one component in creating a good marriage. That means it is only one component in a large number of factors.

If you use NFP thinking that you will have a near perfect marriage and that your chances of divorce are next to zero, you have unrealistic expectations of the real work that goes into making a healthy, lasting marriage.

 

[maryfullofgrace]

lifeisbeautiful:

I’m a bit confused over what you find to be wrong. The people who do not realize they need to get out of the relationship? The Church does allow for separation if its is the only way:

I differ from the church’s teachings on marriage. I think that marriage is “soluble” and this idea of Forever Binding is just nutso. I am Catholic in many of my beliefs but certainly not this.
I think it is dangerous to blindly follow your faith. If you use common sense it is obvious that a marriage can be dissolved and I don’t see any sin in that.

I have the right to my own belief system and this is what I believe.

 

[vluvski]

maryfullofgrace:

I have the right to my own belief system and this is what I believe.

No one said you didn’t have a right to your beliefs, but merely challenged that that is exactly what they are- your own beliefs.

Considering your dissent with the Catholic Church, I find your user name to be in poor taste.

 

[maryfullofgrace]

vluvski:

Considering your dissent with the Catholic Church, I find your user name to be in poor taste.

I am sorry that my name offends you.

 

[just5kids]

maryfullofgrace:

I think it is dangerous to blindly follow your faith.

Blindly following your faith is a bad idea. But if you have not thoroughly read the relevant scripture passages, teachings, and catechism regarding an issue to which you except, you must be obedient to authority, since dissenting isn’t based on anything but an uninformed opinion.

maryfullofgrace:

If you use common sense it is obvious that a marriage can be dissolved and I don’t see any sin in that.

Whether or not you see sin in it isn’t relevant. It either is sin or it isn’t; you and the Church can’t both be right. That’s relativism.

maryfullofgrace:

I have the right to my own belief system and this is what I believe.

Again, this is relativism. It is dangerous. We can’t make up for ourselves what we believe to be the truth.
Have you read Familiaris Consortio? I think it might be of use to you.

 

[maryfullofgrace]

just5kids:

Have you read Familiaris Consortio? I think it might be of use to you.

I will look into Familiaris Consortio. Thank you for the recommendation.
I am still quite young so I am still in the process of figuring this all out.

 

[mrs_abbott]

How many Catholics actually use NFP???

askeptic:

I wouldn’t be surprised if the divorce rates for NFP couples were extremely low, but I think it is erroneous to conclude that NFP leads to good marriages.

I think it’s fair to say that only very conservate Catholics use NFP (I think most Western Catholics use birth control). They obviously use NFP for religious reasons, and those same religious reasons prohibit divorce.

If they are faithful to the Church to the extent of not using birth control, it only makes sense that their faithfulness would extend to not divorcing.

For all we know, they could have horrible marriages and stay together simply because divorce is a sin. (Not saying that this is the case, just that it could be and still produce the same statistics.)

The moral is that correlation is not the same as causation.

 

[buffalo]

maryfullofgrace:

I have the right to my own belief system and this is what I believe.

Although you have a right to your own belief system, it can be a wrong belief.

If I believe the sky is blue and you believe the sky is brown we both cannot be right. There is only one truth. Keep searching and asking and if you really want to know it you will find it.

 

[vluvski]

maryfullofgrace:

If you use common sense it is obvious that a marriage can be dissolved and I don’t see any sin in that.

Can you explain your logic on this?

Not trying to be confrontational here, just trying to see what common sense you have applied to the marital union to conclude that it is not indissoluble. Perhaps we can dispel some of your misconceptions about marriage and help you understand why the Catholic Church teaches that it is an indissoluble bond.

I’m not offended by your choice of screen name, I just find it odd/distasteful. It would be like me choosing a screen name of MartinLuther. It would lead people to believe I am something that I am not.

 

[Maree]

askeptic:

I wouldn’t be surprised if the divorce rates for NFP couples were extremely low, but I think it is erroneous to conclude that NFP leads to good marriages.

I think it’s fair to say that only very conservate Catholics use NFP (I think most Western Catholics use birth control). They obviously use NFP for religious reasons, and those same religious reasons prohibit divorce.

If they are faithful to the Church to the extent of not using birth control, it only makes sense that their faithfulness would extend to not divorcing.

For all we know, they could have horrible marriages and stay together simply because divorce is a sin. (Not saying that this is the case, just that it could be and still produce the same statistics.)

The moral is that correlation is not the same as causation.

I think it is incorrect to say that divorce is a sin. It is just remarriage that the church may consider sinful. Also, my husband and I do not use artificial birth control, (as is the case with most of my siblings), and we are not conservative Catholics. Orthodox yes, conservative, no. That is, we would love for Church teaching to change, but since it has not, we remain faithful to it.