Divorce

[TheRealJuliane]

Wait, ‘thomas’ and ‘mary’ are GNOSTIC gospels. They weren’t ‘left out’. They were never, never, NEVER part of authentic and inspired Scripture to begin with. How can you leave out something which was NEVER THERE in the FIRST place???

Where did you get the idea that the canon of the bible is incomplete, corrupt, etc? If you’re asking 'where is it’in the Bible", aren’t you accepting it’s all ‘right’, even though the canon came together from the CHURCH in AD 384???

The Bible itself says that it does not contain everything that Christ ever said or did. So if the Bible is truth, but not complete, (because the Holy Spirit is going to LEAD US TO TRUTH --and that’s in the Bible), then there must be something else. The Bible is NOT the authority --the CHURCH is the authority. The Bible is a tool of the Church; the Church is not a tool of the Bible.

I read that post and wasn’t sure I read it right, but I thought the same thing…



I’m telling you, this poster is looking more and more like someone who is just attacking the church on different points…there’s a name for that…

 

[choose_to_love]

Speaking of harsh/blunt/uncompassionate statements, how about: " . . relieved me of several hundred pounds", “the Catholic church doesn’t want me”, “the Catholic church seems to think it is higher than God”, etc. All of which are inaccurate at best.

As I said, these threads break my heart.

 

[rainbow1]

But nobody was saying anything about having to stay in an unhealthy marriage. And everybody WAS offering to pray for him, urging him to see a priest, urging him to try for a decree again, etc. What MORE could we do that was authentic Christian teaching? We simply could not lie and tell him that the Church’s teaching on marriage was wrong.

I didn’t ask for any lies, heaven forbid, or misleading about Church teaching, but I am suggesting that arguing over Christian teaching won’t be helpful right now. I think that gently encouraging him back is the way. Showing understanding because the man is in alot of pain. Encouraging him into RCIA. Etc. Sometimes emails don’t accurately express things the way they are meant, and that is probably happening on many levels here…in both directions.
Moving right along here…has anyone actually seen an annulment appeal work? How long does it take? Are there Church support networks set up that could help this man? I am understanding he is in England…anybody from there know where he could get a great priest to listen to him and help him?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I know. . .there simply must be a way to express the truth ‘better’. I guess it’s really hard for the OP because even though I’m sure he thought he understood the situation to begin with, when it turned out differently, he must have felt totally betrayed. And even though we can know some of what he felt, especially if we have suffered in our marriages, and faced the same situation of divorce, and explored decrees of nullity, we’re all different people with different personalities and different experiences and different styles etc.

So if I were a really extroverted and very ‘bubbly’ kind of person (I guess you probably can figure out I’m not ), and I was giving my usual opinion on something, and some introverted, button-down, STODGY nudnick corrected me (even if, gasp, I were actually wrong), I might have more trouble accepting the correction than I would if it came from an equally bubbly, extroverted kind of person.

I guess what I’m nattering at is that if somebody is already feeling kind of ‘raw’, even a gentle approach can seem harsh, especially if it’s couched in a style that is very unlike the way that person would himself think and react and feel. . . .

So even when we’re doing everything ‘right’ and doing the best we can, it might not ‘work’, not because we’re doing it ‘wrong’ but from things outside our control. I can’t make myself be a bubbly extrovert, but like St Paul, if perhaps I’m talking with somebody who is a little more ‘feeling’ than I might be, maybe I could try a little harder to convey my message with a little more feeling. And if that helps somebody down the line that I might not have been able to help before, surely this thread and this OP have been able to get something very precious going even in the midst of their own pain and sorrow.

 

[rainbow1]

Speaking of harsh/blunt/uncompassionate statements, how about: " . . relieved me of several hundred pounds", “the Catholic church doesn’t want me”, “the Catholic church seems to think it is higher than God”, etc. All of which are inaccurate at best.

As I said, these threads break my heart.

Mine too…but his heart is breaking because he feels this way , whether it is true or not. He feels as if the Church doesn’t think he is good enough …
that is a hard pill for anyone to swallow…and the truth is he is plenty good enough…God loves each and every one of us…and so does the Church…
If a person feels huge rejection in a relationship, then the odds are that they will feel rejection across every single plane of their lives…of course he feels like this…lets feed him God’s Mercy…

 

[mamaslo]

These threads are heartbreaking, that is why it breaks your heart. It is still part of the consequence of the first marriage and her infidelity, maybe even he knew he should not have married the first wife, but those choices, have consequences good or bad.

This is why divorce is evil. So many are in the same situation as the OP. there is redemption, but if you live in this life you will be injured by others. That is why Jesus came to begin with. We have options, the Church gave us those.

The whole topic of divorce, single-again, remarriage, and annulments (not necessarily in that order :|) is just painful. there is not much written to help anyone navigate when you have remarried, other than the annulment part. There is no emotional support for doing what is right. It is just HEAVY. All around. But it is a cross, that is the cross you must carry if you are in this situation. Regardless of who caused it. OP has some consequences, as does the ex, and the present “spouse”. It just is heavy, and there is only the guidance of “apply for a decree of nullility”…but since it is legal, you have to prove it. There is zero emotional support though. There is no ministry to assist, so there is a real need. I have felt banished somewhat because of it.

I live as brother and sister, not by his choice, but I had to make this right because he wouldn’t. So I understand the weight. Try to discern marriage in this situation, with most saying that they see a marriage, when the church says it isn’t one, they say irregular, invalid…people feel bad for the HIM in my situation, and attempt to counsel it as a marriage. When as for now, all it can be is a weird-shaped friendship…if there is at least that. there is always hope.

But the things you can control…your own behavior. Trying for an appeal and proving the marriage was not a real one. Regularizing the new union…

It does feel like rejection, but I think it is more my formation that tells me that. Too much television and gooey “love” what is love? God is Love, and he defines through His church what love is supposed to look like. Pick up a catechism. Look at the book “Love and Responsibility” if it isn’t right via the Church, then…it isn’t right. You can make it right. One way or another. (and the rules apply in other churches they just don’t know it)

I am sorry about this if it makes anyone angry. this guy isn’t alone. The woman at the well comes to mind. Jesus told her about her life. She had been married 5 times and was living with someone. She was told in the Bible and real life “Go and sin no more.” That is what I choose.

I don’t know if this is even helpful, but I think I am glad I got that off my chest.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

mamaslo,

:grouphug:

OP,

:grouphug:

Luvtosew,

:grouphug:

Rascal,



Just kidding

:grouphug:

 

[divinefaith]

Yes, I did jump into his defense, because I assumed, correctly, it turns out-that he would be treated harshly. It’s a double standard, if the op was a “she” they’d be treated alot kinder. Also, the fact that he was the victim of something beyond his control (infidelity) and is getting punished for it (regardless of how anyone tries to argue it, it’s a punishment if your spouse messes around and you have to pay the price by living in chastity and lonliness forever).

I don’t speak for lovestosew but looking back at what I said, I still think I’m right.

So…yes, darn right I jumped in to “agree” with him.

I’ve seen a female CAF member hear that she must stay single too after her husband found someone else. To be honest I dont think CAF members are trying to be harsh but when they mention the Church teachings it gets harsh coz the teachings themselves dont seem at all compassionate.

 

[Luvtosew]

mamaslo,

:grouphug:

OP,

:grouphug:

Luvtosew,

:grouphug:

Rascal,



Just kidding

:grouphug:

I agree, Friends, Peace, and Blessings to Everyone.

 

[rainbow1]

These threads are heartbreaking, that is why it breaks your heart. It is still part of the consequence of the first marriage and her infidelity, maybe even he knew he should not have married the first wife, but those choices, have consequences good or bad.

This is why divorce is evil. So many are in the same situation as the OP. there is redemption, but if you live in this life you will be injured by others. That is why Jesus came to begin with. We have options, the Church gave us those.

The whole topic of divorce, single-again, remarriage, and annulments (not necessarily in that order :|) is just painful. there is not much written to help anyone navigate when you have remarried, other than the annulment part. There is no emotional support for doing what is right. It is just HEAVY. All around. But it is a cross, that is the cross you must carry if you are in this situation. Regardless of who caused it. OP has some consequences, as does the ex, and the present “spouse”. It just is heavy, and there is only the guidance of “apply for a decree of nullility”…but since it is legal, you have to prove it. There is zero emotional support though. There is no ministry to assist, so there is a real need. I have felt banished somewhat because of it.

I live as brother and sister, not by his choice, but I had to make this right because he wouldn’t. So I understand the weight. Try to discern marriage in this situation, with most saying that they see a marriage, when the church says it isn’t one, they say irregular, invalid…people feel bad for the HIM in my situation, and attempt to counsel it as a marriage. When as for now, all it can be is a weird-shaped friendship…if there is at least that. there is always hope.

But the things you can control…your own behavior. Trying for an appeal and proving the marriage was not a real one. Regularizing the new union…

It does feel like rejection, but I think it is more my formation that tells me that. Too much television and gooey “love” what is love? God is Love, and he defines through His church what love is supposed to look like. Pick up a catechism. Look at the book “Love and Responsibility” if it isn’t right via the Church, then…it isn’t right. You can make it right. One way or another. (and the rules apply in other churches they just don’t know it)

I am sorry about this if it makes anyone angry. this guy isn’t alone. The woman at the well comes to mind. Jesus told her about her life. She had been married 5 times and was living with someone. She was told in the Bible and real life “Go and sin no more.” That is what I choose.

I don’t know if this is even helpful, but I think I am glad I got that off my chest.

I am really glad you posted all of this. It gives another option to the OP.
When I read the “Go and sin no more” I interpret that as Jesus telling the woman not to continuously be having partner after partner without being responsible". I am not interpreting it as stop having sexual relationships with her current husband. If your first marriage was not valid (to be determined) and your new marriage is found to be valid, then having sexual relations with your new husband would not be a sin, in my opinion. Of course the Church would like you to have had your annulment first.
You are married to your second husband, if you weren’t married sacramentally to your first spouse. The annulment process does not change the status of your first marriage. It just makes it acknowledged. Thus if your first marriage was not valid, and you married civilly, then this new marriage is valid and you ought to be having sexual relationships if one of you desires such. I know that your choice, sometimes works for couples where both spouses are Catholic and they just want to be sure the first marriage was null, or if the other spouse is not Catholic and just wants to make it easier for you, but if one partner is not Catholic, doesn’t believe there should be celibacy, and children are involved, then the poor husband could totally give up…you married and vowed outside the Catholic faith, but it was also a vow to God. And you are breaking your vow then to your second husband who actually is probably your real husband, by not upholding your second marriage. I so know that this is a tangled up situation and that you are doing what you believe to be right. I just have concerns that this may be damaging to your new marriage. I think if I did not understand Church doctrine, and I married a protestant man in a civil marriage, and then came to a realization I did things out of order, then I personally would maintain my second marriage vow and have sexual relations with him and then work really hard to get the annulment done. It is like a double bind that neither way is a good decision, so you have to decide what is the best for the very moment at hand and include everyone in the equation including the husband and children. I hope I don’t sound judgemental and I bet lots of people won’t agree with me, but I also see your second vow as very important and I hope you can get it finally blessed in the Church.
But this does give another option to the OP…he and his wife both might decide this is best for them.

 

[rainbow1]

I agree, Friends, Peace, and Blessings to Everyone.

Awwww …that is so sweet…

 

[rainbow1]

mamaslo,

:grouphug:

OP,

:grouphug:

Luvtosew,

:grouphug:

Rascal,


Awww that is sweet too…
Just kidding

:grouphug:

 

[rainbow1]

rainbow1:
Ps…I didn’t put the" just kidding" in there…oops…
I want in on the group hug too…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Ps…I didn’t put the" just kidding" in there…oops…
I want in on the group hug too…

:grouphug::hug1::hug3:

There you go. Thanks for everything you’ve written on this thread. I really mean that. Your heart is so in the right place.

Here’s another hug,

:grouphug:

 

[TryingToLearn]

muffindell, I can sympathize with you.

I am currently married, but separated. My wife moved out leaving me and the kids after her third extramarital affair in a 15 year marriage. I was hurt the first time, found God’s grace to forgive her, take her back and trust her again. I was hurt worse the second time, again turned to my priest who painted the picture that there is no certainty in divorce and filing for anulment. This third time, I find out when she announces she is leaving us and she has now been gone for over 15 months.

She hasn’t filed for divorce. I haven’t filed either and remain uncertain as to what I should do, because your situation is exactly what I fear. It seems to me that her actions demonstrate she never really took the vows seriously, vows which I did and still take quite seriously, but there is no way of knowing so until she makes the decision to divorce or God leads me to that decision, I remain married but separated.

Each day I remain faithful to my vows, I forgive her each day. I pray for her each day. Each day I pray that I might know if this marriage is valid so that I should resign myself to remaining in this state pending her returning to His path for her or if it was never valid so I should clear the way so I can continue looking for the path He has for me. Still no answers, so I continue quietly suffering.

I’m bothered by the people posting berating you for being unable to perfectly follow God’s law. We’re all sinners We all fall We all struggle. And the lack of charity in understanding the pain and hurt and agony of being devoted to a spouse only to have them abandon you and to leave you feeling trapped, that lack of sympathy troubles me. Are these same people in my parish, looking at me and judging me because my spouse couldn’t be faithful? I know many don’t understand my pain from personal experience, but they offer their prayers, their sympathy, their understanding not just for me, but for my wife whom they all know. They don’t judge her and berate her. They pray for her. They talk to her with the love of a faithful servant of God hoping in their love and charity they can help her find her way back to the path He has for her.

St. Paul completely understood his own inability to do what he knew was right. He completely understood that the call to celibacy was too much for some to handle and pointed them towards marriage. And to follow your vocational call, have who you believed to be your spouse for life reject you, leave you painted into a corner with no exit? It’s agonizing. It’s painful. It’s difficult. I feel the pain daily.

I’ve lost track of the number of times I have taken up my rosary and meditated on the sorrowful mysteries to remind myself that He knows suffering as real and undeserved as mine and yours.

I can certainly understand how you would get where you are. St. Paul understood the struggles and pain. And Christ really understands our pain and suffering in ways we can’t even imagine.

I don’t have any advice for you in your situation. All I can offer is my prayers and my sympathy. Sympathy from a fellow soul that has been devastated by the infidelity of a spouse they deeply care(d) for and love(d).

 

[mamaslo]

I am really glad you posted all of this. It gives another option to the OP.
When I read the “Go and sin no more” I interpret that as Jesus telling the woman not to continuously be having partner after partner without being responsible". I am not interpreting it as stop having sexual relationships with her current husband. If your first marriage was not valid (to be determined) and your new marriage is found to be valid, then having sexual relations with your new husband would not be a sin, in my opinion. Of course the Church would like you to have had your annulment first.
You are married to your second husband, if you weren’t married sacramentally to your first spouse. The annulment process does not change the status of your first marriage. It just makes it acknowledged. Thus if your first marriage was not valid, and you married civilly, then this new marriage is valid and you ought to be having sexual relationships if one of you desires such. I know that your choice, sometimes works for couples where both spouses are Catholic and they just want to be sure the first marriage was null, or if the other spouse is not Catholic and just wants to make it easier for you, but if one partner is not Catholic, doesn’t believe there should be celibacy, and children are involved, then the poor husband could totally give up…you married and vowed outside the Catholic faith, but it was also a vow to God. And you are breaking your vow then to your second husband who actually is probably your real husband, by not upholding your second marriage. I so know that this is a tangled up situation and that you are doing what you believe to be right. I just have concerns that this may be damaging to your new marriage. I think if I did not understand Church doctrine, and I married a protestant man in a civil marriage, and then came to a realization I did things out of order, then I personally would maintain my second marriage vow and have sexual relations with him and then work really hard to get the annulment done. It is like a double bind that neither way is a good decision, so you have to decide what is the best for the very moment at hand and include everyone in the equation including the husband and children. I hope I don’t sound judgemental and I bet lots of people won’t agree with me, but I also see your second vow as very important and I hope you can get it finally blessed in the Church.
But this does give another option to the OP…he and his wife both might decide this is best for them.

The problem is that you have it wrong…even if his my legal spouse gets an annulment and it goes through, it does not make this a valid marriage. I am catholic. The vows we took were not valid. I am not able to make a new vow outside the church with someone who has already taken a vow. You might think your response is charitable but it is not…it is still not right. I am not trying to be mean, but it is a time of discernment.

The woman at the well needed to give her life to Jesus, and stop living in sin. We are not allowed serial weddings. Only one valid marriage. The discernment I am in is whether or not to make this a valid marriage if the annulment goes through. That would have been a lot different if I had not had to wait for 10 years on someone who said he would and then didn’t until I said…well I have control over my own actions…and detached myself from the situation.

Your advice is not correct.

 

[rainbow1]

:grouphug::hug1::hug3:

There you go. Thanks for everything you’ve written on this thread. I really mean that. Your heart is so in the right place.

Here’s another hug,

:grouphug:

OH, thank you …i so needed that! I really do admire ya’lls passion and knowledge about the faith…one day I want to have all that in my noggin too…until then, it is just my heart I can give…Big hug to you too!!!

 

[rainbow1]

The problem is that you have it wrong…even if his my legal spouse gets an annulment and it goes through, it does not make this a valid marriage. I am catholic. The vows we took were not valid. I am not able to make a new vow outside the church with someone who has already taken a vow. You might think your response is charitable but it is not…it is still not right. I am not trying to be mean, but it is a time of discernment.

The woman at the well needed to give her life to Jesus, and stop living in sin. We are not allowed serial weddings. Only one valid marriage. The discernment I am in is whether or not to make this a valid marriage if the annulment goes through. That would have been a lot different if I had not had to wait for 10 years on someone who said he would and then didn’t until I said…well I have control over my own actions…and detached myself from the situation.

Your advice is not correct.

But if your first marriage is truly nonexistent, then your second marriage would have been considered a valid marriage although it is not in the Catholic Church. If you soley had married in the protestant church, your marriage would be considered valid. I see what you are saying, and will suffer the posts people will post on this, but truly, if I were in your situation, I would uphold the vows I made to my second husband, since they also were in front of God, but unfortunately not in the Church… But I do know you have thought this through and through, and have probably looked at it from every single aspect with your husband. Hug from me to you too…

 

[mamaslo]

But if your first marriage is truly nonexistent, then your second marriage would have been considered a valid marriage although it is not in the Catholic Church. If you soley had married in the protestant church, your marriage would be considered valid. I see what you are saying, and will suffer the posts people will post on this, but truly, if I were in your situation, I would uphold the vows I made to my second husband, since they also were in front of God, but unfortunately not in the Church… But I do know you have thought this through and through, and have probably looked at it from every single aspect with your husband. Hug from me to you too…

You are right, I have thought this through and through and when there was no support I would open the catechism and reread what it has to say, it reassured me that what we have is not right. But it might get that way, but we as a culture have decided that people over rule God and that is twisted into our own image. I am Catholic and need to follow those rules.

Even before hand, the Holy Spirit in a still small voice asked me “who is going to do the annulment?” When I did not even know what one was until then. So it wasn’t right from the start. Even if I wanted it to be. I still do not know the outcome. It does rely on what the tribunal says.

thanks for the understanding you CAN give. I haven’t said it won’t be a sacrament eventually, but the jury is literally out (on more than one level).

 

[PRmerger]

So where did the ‘church’ get it’s information about God and Jesus if not from the bible(collective accounts of the apostles)?

Muff, the Bible came from the Church.

The Church was first. * Then *came the Bible.

*Someone *had to discern from the over 400 early Christian texts which books were inspired and which weren’t.

This Someone was the Church.

The Catholic bishops determined which of the ancient Christian books were proclaiming that which the apostles and their successors (the bishops) were already orally proclaiming.

How did they know what God had revealed since there was no Bible? Through Sacred Tradition.

How did they know what books to reject and what books to keep? The Bible didn’t say, right, that Hebrews is inspired but that the Shepherd of Hermas isn’t. The only way we know is because the Church discerned for us this truth.

Thus, any Protestant who thinks that everything he believes has to be found in the Bible is actually contradicting himself, as the Bible doesn’t tell us what’s inspired and what’s not.

You need the Church to tell you that the Gospel of Thomas is not inspired but the Gospel of Luke is.

You wouldn’t know it any other way.

Except through the Church.