Divorce

[rainbow1]

Hey Real… more info here. I thought if your spouse dies the marriage is over. You can remarry within the church and move forward and RECEIVE…

An annullment is a word used to mean the marriage was NEVER valid. It was either valid or it wasn’t. It’s not a choice.

I wonder if you’ve wondered why your wife thinks YOU should commit the sin. But not she? She’s willing to murder a baby. But she’s not willing to have her tubes tied? Not that this is a valid Catholic option. But when you read around, you will learn that if SHE committs the sin, it’s not yours. A very difficult situation to say the least. Warranting more than a paragraph.

The story of the prodigals son should be helpful here.

Well, for example, there may be reasons it was infact invalid. Since God doesn’t come roaring through your ceremony to make announcements, we have to rely on the humans to get through the red tape. If your wife NEVER had any intentions of being faithful, but lied and said she did, for example, then perhaps your marriage was not valid. If your wife was underage (as a made up example), and you presented fake ID in order to get married. The marriage was not legal/valid IN THE FIRST PLACE. No one can UNDO a VALID marriage. But people can investigate the truth to determine if there were situations not obvious at the time that prevented it from being valid in the first place.

By the Grace of God we are granted many, many chances. But we HAVE to be truly sorry for what we have done. Have you ever read the testiment of Gloria Polo? You might find it interesting???

You are right. You have to truly be sorry. However, it’s not permission to continue with the same sin. Edited to add: meaning, if you have a civil divorce, but your marriage is found to be valid (and perhaps the civil divorce is necessary for your safety either), you are not in the right remarrying. You are committing a sin. It’s not the divorce that is the problem. It’s living in sin with a person you’re not married to, without fixing the situation.

What’s interesting of note here. He does not believe that man has the authority to say what’s right and wrong here, or to properly translate rules. How could these same men have any profound effect on a pc. of bread? If ONLY Catholic priests are capable of turning bread into Jesus. Why not venture to guess they may also know a thing or two about what is right or wrong?

OP… Sadly, the fact is, you moved forward into a marriage without confirming your first marriage was not valid. And at the moment, it stands that it is valid. Which means you are married to one woman, and living with another. I’m sure you recognize the sin here. If I were you, I’d be appealing this decision as others have suggested. Get yourself educated, and prove that it was invalid. Not that your ex is a cheat. That is clear. But no where in our marriage vows does it say, this marriage will be invalid if you break a commandment. You just might not make it to Heaven. Two different things.

If the Eucharist presented by the Catholic Church is meaningful to you. Then you must agree that ALL the rules are meaningful. As nice as it would be, we don’t get to pick and choose.

Is it fair? No this stinks. We all have a cross to bear. Some seemingly harder than others. I’m quite sure it would take you no more than 1 minute to find a situation that you could not, would not choose to bare in lieu of this one.

Actually, the Eucharist has been shown thru many Eucharistic miracles to affect non-believers in powerful ways. The OP is not a non-believer. He is a Christian who does feel a hunger for the Eucharist. I like to think of the story of EASeaton and how she had a conversion due to the Presence of the Eucharist. God often gives people with difficulty accepting some rules the powerful hunger for the Eucharist. I would not negate that, this is a strong point here.

 

[PRmerger]

Mary Gail, I assume you are sighting canon law. Canon law is man made, it did not come from the God or more to the point Jesus; unless that is you can prove me wrong?

No, muff. What was quoted comes from the Catechism. YOUR catechism. So definitely NOT a man-made paradigm.

 

[rainbow1]

This is a most curious post.

If a man is in a second “marriage” and is a “repenting Catholic”, then he ought not be committing adultery. That would mean he’s repentant. And OF COURSE he can receive the Eucharist.

If he’s still engaging in illicit “marital” relations, then it’s clear he’s not repentant, and ought not receive the Eucharist.

Wanna join in on the group hug?

 

[rainbow1]

Rascalking,

If you are still reading this thread, why can’t anyone have a serious discussion with you? 1ke and you were debating the issue, and she was bringing up valid arguments, and you responded with “we should kick his puppies” and many other comments that did nothing to further the discussion. Of course you meant so “in jest”, but why should we be joking about an issue as serious as this, and why can’t you provide actual arguments in favor of your position instead of presenting outrageous caricatures of the arguments you disagree with?

I think he can’t have a serious discussion right now become the group hug pre-empted it!
Wanna join in?

 

[PRmerger]

Wanna join in on the group hug?

How 'bout I just give a hearty High Five?

 

[ChiRho]

I think he can’t have a serious discussion right now become the group hug pre-empted it!
Wanna join in?

Not really… let’s hug after a funny joke or after a silly argument about which football team is best, but not before an issue of this magnitude has actually even come close to being resolved. But once it does, I’m a great bear hugger says my fiancee!

 

[faithfully]

Actually, the Eucharist has been shown thru many Eucharistic miracles to affect non-believers in powerful ways. The OP is not a non-believer. He is a Christian who does feel a hunger for the Eucharist. I like to think of the story of EASeaton and how she had a conversion due to the Presence of the Eucharist. God often gives people with difficulty accepting some rules the powerful hunger for the Eucharist. I would not negate that, this is a strong point here.

I do not intend to negate that at all.

Not sure if I can be more clear. I’m not here to argue. Basically, it sounds as though the OP believes the Eucharist as provided by the Catholic church is THE Eucharist he should be taking right???

It’s not that he’s called to the Eucharist PRIOR to be changed by a man. And I suspect the OP knows it’s ONLY because of the Man at the front of the church it is changed. Because that man was given the gift of such a conversion. Right? No layperson can do this. No pastor at any other church can do this.

And so, my question is. If a person KNOWS this to be true, then, IN MY WORLD: I don’t understand suggesting that such men have such power and knowledge, but aren’t with it enough to know and understand the law as handed down by Christ.

I get NOT being able to wrap your head around certain rules. But I find that’s generally more of a “help me understand”. Not “who do these people think they are?” I mean sure they can turn bread into Christ, but that’s as far as I can see. I can accept the mystery… just not anything else around it… It’s not something I’ve heard much of… Perhaps, I’m just reading this wrong?

Not judging. As I know first hand, we all have our own crosses to bear. Our own questions that need to be answered.

 

[mamaslo]

That is so heartbreaking…I will so pray for you and I know your example of struggling to please God is such an example of a different kind of love for your spouse…our Good Lord will see you through the whole thing…

That is why we should go through way more discernment. Not rush, be patient…it won’t fix every relationship but it would give you a chance to figure out all the nervous things you have without rushing.

Pay attention to your nerves. discern.
He may be the one, in the end, I do not recommend discerning marriage this way…it’s so much harder…the beginning was way too rushed.

I am joining in on the group hug and the high 5. I might even buy you all a coke!

 

[YADA]

Well I find this upsetting, when the CC can take Protestants in and well they may of been divorced but thats ok, no problem. Here he is a Catholic, his wife was unfaithful not once but twice, paid money and then was turned away. There is something terribly wrong with this.

Actually - in this you are very mistaken - though many falsely believe as you do …

Non-catholics [Protestants and non Christian] who are divorced can come into the Church as long as they are not remarried … if - after entering the Church - they want to contract a marriage - they need to submit their first marriage to a Tribunal for a determination of whether or not their marriage was sacramental - IE obtain or be denied a declaration of nullity … and only if they receive a decree of nullity will they be allowed to marry in the Church …

Non-catholics [Protestants and non Christian] who are divorced and remarried cannot be brought into the Church and receive the Sacraments if Initiation or have their current marriages accepted until they submit their first marriage to a Tribunal for a determination of whether or not their marriage was sacramental - IE obtain or be denied a declaration of nullity … and not until they receive a decree of nullity will they be allowed to receive the Sacraments and be brought into the Church …

I know a divorced Lutheran man who wanted to enter into the Church and marry a Catholic woman … his first marriage did not receive the decree of nullity … it was hard for him, his fiancé and those walking the faith journey with them …

Having worked with the RCIA for a nearly two decades - I am aware of many Non-catholics who have had to submit their non-catholic marriages to the scrutiny of the Church Tribunal and just the need to do so causes angst … and in my experience with our parish - the non-catholic marriages submitted to the annulment process probably out number the catholic marriages ten [10] to one [1]

 

[muffindell]

Thanks for all your support (good and bad), I will look at going for appeal. My feelings about the church teaching are just that, feelings and emotions, I find it all very difficult to make sense of. Obviously my upbringing in the Catholic faith as been incomplete to say the least.
I live by what Jesus taught us, have read the bible cover to cover in times of comfort and need.
I hope that my faith stays with me until I die.
I Pray that my ex-wife finds peace before death (I doubt that will happen though).
I do everything for my family, neighbours and friends, selflessly putting their needs before my own in every situation.
I am tired, so tired; I have done nothing wrong, yet I have be punished for someone elses crime.
My ex-destroyed my entire family, it still in pieces 10 years on (my ex had an affair with my uncle, yep my uncle of all people). I have pieced the remaining family together, it’s been long and painful, but I’ve done it.
My journey is obviously incomplete, I don’t know if I have enough energy left to make it to the end, but I will try.

 

[divinefaith]

Thanks for all your support (good and bad), I will look at going for appeal. My feelings about the church teaching are just that, feelings and emotions, I find it all very difficult to make sense of. Obviously my upbringing in the Catholic faith as been incomplete to say the least.
I live by what Jesus taught us, have read the bible cover to cover in times of comfort and need.
I hope that my faith stays with me until I die.
I Pray that my ex-wife finds peace before death (I doubt that will happen though).
I do everything for my family, neighbours and friends, selflessly putting their needs before my own in every situation.
I am tired, so tired; I have done nothing wrong, yet I have be punished for someone elses crime.
My ex-destroyed my entire family, it still in pieces 10 years on (my ex had an affair with my uncle, yep my uncle of all people). I have pieced the remaining family together, it’s been long and painful, but I’ve done it.
My journey is obviously incomplete, I don’t know if I have enough energy left to make it to the end, but I will try.

You sure are a strong person. God Bless you.

 

[Luvtosew]

**

Actually - in this you are very mistaken - though many falsely believe as you do …

Non-catholics [Protestants and non Christian] who are divorced can come into the Church as long as they are not remarried … if - after entering the Church - they want to contract a marriage - they need to submit their first marriage to a Tribunal for a determination of whether or not their marriage was sacramental - IE obtain or be denied a declaration of nullity … and only if they receive a decree of nullity will they be allowed to marry in the Church …

Can you please tell me how Newt Gingrich went through the process then? the steps he had to of taken to become Catholic. With two previous marriages, infidelity, and him filing for divorce both times. I want to know what the proceedure would of been for him.
Thank you in advance.**

 

[mamaslo]

Thanks for all your support (good and bad), I will look at going for appeal. My feelings about the church teaching are just that, feelings and emotions, I find it all very difficult to make sense of. Obviously my upbringing in the Catholic faith as been incomplete to say the least.
I live by what Jesus taught us, have read the bible cover to cover in times of comfort and need.
I hope that my faith stays with me until I die.
I Pray that my ex-wife finds peace before death (I doubt that will happen though).
I do everything for my family, neighbours and friends, selflessly putting their needs before my own in every situation.
I am tired, so tired; I have done nothing wrong, yet I have be punished for someone elses crime.
My ex-destroyed my entire family, it still in pieces 10 years on (my ex had an affair with my uncle, yep my uncle of all people). I have pieced the remaining family together, it’s been long and painful, but I’ve done it.
My journey is obviously incomplete, I don’t know if I have enough energy left to make it to the end, but I will try.

Awesome. Yes, you can do this. I think that makes you victorious already. Our emotions are there regardless. You feel what you feel. It isn’t the church punishing you. It is the consequences…of sin in others and in you. No different from me. We cannot judge you, it is impossible. Even if we use judgemental words, the final say is someone who created us all. You try again, it is painful, it just is. There is no way around that and each day you do what you must and distract yourself from the pain (in healthy ways) and take one step at a time.
Unfortunately, for some reason, there isn’t a ministry in this area and it is much needed. I have seen divorce support groups, to trust again, I think they call it here. This may sound plain but it’s true…you just have to start at the start. Rethink your case in the verbiage the lawyers would be looking for. They are there to defend the first marriage, and it’s your job (depending on how you feel about the defense) to prove it wasn’t. You have been through enough, and this really isn’t going to be much new except a change of how you are thinking it through. Read the book someone suggested earlier and it will help you. Maybe even hire someone (I have heard you can). We have a support group on here and we have a Canon Lawyer who might be able to help you focus your thoughts.

I am sorry that her sin and your uncles’ sin have so much ripples. You are right, you ARE putting your life back together. We are much stronger than we think and God gives grace, even if it doesn’t feel like it. He wants all of you. Unfortunately, all is painful until we give all. Then we have to keep choosing all. He will reward us but we being in this world may not see it…but maybe, a thought I had this week…he gives us little joys throughout every day, and we miss the importance of them because of the pain. Think of those things He has given you even though you have this suffering, which you can offer up for your ex and your uncle to help their eternity…or for your current family.

In this journey, regardless of the “marriage” “adultery” “annulment” “nonannulment” we are in families, the body of Christ is what it is. Jesus had adulterers/esses more than once in the Bible…He forgave them, but they had to go and sin no more…we still have these families. they are still our families however strange they are. To love is to do the hard thing, but hopefully, if you do this again, you can experience the freedom from some of this angst of rejection.

Yes, you CAN do this.

 

[mamaslo]

**

Can you please tell me how Newt Gingrich went through the process then? the steps he had to of taken to become Catholic. With two previous marriages, infidelity, and him filing for divorce both times. I want to know what the proceedure would of been for him.
Thank you in advance.

 

[Luvtosew]

I didn’t ask you. Yes it is our business, knowing what steps he had to go throught to get married in 2000 and he became Catholic in what 2008. So many people here would be interested in the steps he had to go throught.

 

[GraceDK]

This may sound plain but it’s true…you just have to start at the start. Rethink your case in the verbiage the lawyers would be looking for. They are there to defend the first marriage, and it’s your job (depending on how you feel about the defense) to prove it wasn’t. .

Are you for real?
I guess the OP has answered the Tribunal in an honest and direct fashion before, back then when he didn’t even think of ways to get around the questions to his own favour.

Look this is not some civil court. If one cunningly tries to get the court swayed, then God will still know whether the marriage was valid or not…
The marriage will be valid whether or not someone cuts out a detail or exaggerates some point in order to appear it was not valid after all.
Do you want this man to die in sin? Do you believe that a person can die in sin? I think alot of people who are very wellmeaning here are tempting the OP.

The church uses the tribunals to get to the truth about a marriage, and the questions they pose are very good to find out if a person was validly married.
We should also assume that this has happend in the case of the OP, although his wife has been behaving in a nasty way after the valid vows were made.

Look, no one can fool God, even if they can fool the tribunal. We should urge this brother to have the courage to look for the Truth, regardless of what he feels about it. Not to manipulate in anyway.
Its a known fact that there is abuse with the number of annullments granted to people. Even my canon lawyer teacher from Rome told me so… so the problem is most often not that the tribunals are too strict but quite the opposite…

 

[Luvtosew]

Yada,
since you know about this stuff, I have another question,

Can a Catholic woman who was never married get married to a divorced man in the Catholic Church, if the man is Protestant?

Thank you.

 

[ValPal]

Yada,
since you know about this stuff, I have another question,

Can a Catholic woman who was never married get married to a divorced man in the Catholic Church, if the man is Protestant?

Thank you.

Any previous marriage must be addressed by the Church. The manner it is handled will depend on whether the party with the prior marriage is Catholic, baptismal status, etc.

A previously married, validly baptized, non-Catholic Christian must have an annulment before marrying another. Parties that are not validly baptized have the option of having the marriage dissolved under specific circumstances.

 

[rainbow1]

How 'bout I just give a hearty High Five?

Aw, shoot, I thought you might actually give ole Muff a big hug…especially after all the praying I did yesterday and all the saints I called on today…geez…back to the chapel…hahahahaha…

 

[rainbow1]

Not really… let’s hug after a funny joke or after a silly argument about which football team is best, but not before an issue of this magnitude has actually even come close to being resolved. But once it does, I’m a great bear hugger says my fiancee!

We can hug and argue at the same time, no?