Divorce

[Luvtosew]

Hum I do believe the Tribunal can make the same errors just as the judicial system in our country, and I also am beginning to believe it may be who your are, and well who reviews your case.
There are some people in authority who like to well let their power show. Lets remember, althought we respect our Priests, they are not Gods, and are not infallible.
So keep on trying, it took that one lady 10 years, don’t know if you want to wait that long.

 

[TryingToLearn]

What I wonder is, why do you all pad his shoulder as if the Church is some big bad wolf, instead of assuming the Tribunal just did its job?

Because the tribunal is not infallible?

Tribunals do not have infallible judgment, there are appeal mechanisms and process because this is recognized to be true by the Church.

If a priest encouraged the divorce, it certainly raises the possibility that something was missed. And the Church provides recourse to assure the correct judgment was made.

Pointing out those factual realities and encouraging him to avail himself of the options God has put in front of him, using the mechanisms of the Church is not making the Church out to be a big bad wolf. It is pointing a struggling soul towards the source of healing that God has put in place for him.

 

[faithfully]

Grace,

I think the appeal process is quite valid. I don’t doubt the OP was truthful in what he shared with the tribunal. However, it is quite clear, you believed/s all they needed to know was that she was a cheat.He believed this was enough info. Many people actually think infidelity is grounds for annulment.

IF his appeal it met with a declaration of null and void, I doubt it will be because he comes up with lies. I have a feeling, and this is my gut, it will be because he will realize that he needs to open up with much more, perhaps painful detail. He’s going to have to show them the heart of the matter.

Everyone gets asked the same questions. Yes. But not everyone is good at putting thoughts and actions into words. It’s like algebra. You can’t just give the answer. You HAVE to show your work. You have to show how you got to your answer.

It may very well be, he can’t prove his marriage was invalid. And this will be terribly painful. Because he is living in sin until this happens. The OP clings to “I did nothing wrong”, but that’s not the case. He is married to a cheat, and he’s living in a civil marriage to another woman he loves. This is heartbreaking. But it’s his reality. And this is an act he can UNDO. He can’t undo his children. Sadly for him and his current “wife”, he can undo their sinful living arrangements if necessary.

He is going to have to have the courage to stand up, appeal, and pray that IF the marriage is truly void and null, that he can present his best possible case.

 

[faithfully]

Can you please tell me how Newt Gingrich went through the process then? the steps he had to of taken to become Catholic. With two previous marriages, infidelity, and him filing for divorce both times. I want to know what the proceedure would of been for him.
Thank you in advance.

Anyone that wants to become a Catholic has to go through all the same steps. There are not different steps for different people.

He was married 2 times prior to his current marriage. They BOTH would have to have been found null before he was accepted as a Catholic. Otherwise, he’d have been married to either #1 or 2, and living with #3… A no no.

Infidelity is a sin that he may ask forgiveness for. I don’t know a single sinless person. Being sinless is not a requirement to get be accepted by the Catholic.

However, one can not be in a state of MORTAL sin. So, the fact he’s married to #3, and was baptized should suggest to you that #'s 1 & 2 were declared null.And presumable #3 has been convalidated. Or he wouldn’t be in good standing STILL.

It’s hard to decipher the truth from fiction on the web. Who did and said what. However, if you look at the very basics about his marriages. #1 happened when he was age 19. There is reference to the fact his family didn’t even attend his wedding because they thought it was a sham. His first wife quite a bit older. I IMAGINE his first marriage declared null with regard to inability to truly know what he was getting into??? GUESSES There are so many reasons a marriage is invalid. I’m not expert for sure.

Marriage #2, supposedly he asked this woman to marry him and he wasn’t even divorced yet. Gonna go out on a limb and suggest he was still super clueless to marriage and comprehension of the vows he was making.

And I imagine #3 went through convalidation. Since his current wife is a cradle Catholic, and their actual marriage was not in a church. And they are seemingly in good standing with the Church.

Did he do a lot wrong… YES HE DID! And perhaps like the OP, he did things backwards. Marrying people without making sure he was marriagable himself. But it appears, he’s gone back and done what he needed to do. We can only assume that. As he was infact accepted into the Catholic church! May he take this step seriously. There is no going back!

We are given many opportunities to correct our wrongs. We need to take them, and not get upset if we don’t. The free will and choices are ours.

 

[Luvtosew]

Faithfully,
I appreciate all you say. Thats all I’ll say about it.

 

[mamaslo]

GraceDK,
You clearly have not read my posts about my own life.

If it was perfect the first time through, then why do they have an appeals process at all? There are certain criteria they are looking for. In other topics others have posted them so I don’t have to go and rewrite that.

If he did not have the “aha” moment realizing “Oh, they want to know this!” and it went all the way through. Then there was no evididence written down. Why do you think people hire canon lawyers to help them out? Every case is different. Some things are obvious. OP hasn’t commented on my post.

All I said really was to do it again and see because it is available. The church would have not given an appeal if it thought the process was perfect. There are not a lot of chances for him, but I figure he may as well try again and see. He has wonderful resources available to understand. The tribunal isn’t the Magesterium. However, if he reads up and realises that indeed he is wrong and the tribunal is right, then he has some decisions to make.

Look, if I didn’t agree with the church or the tribunal, then I wouldn’t be sleeping on the couch for two years plus dealing with bulging discs and the progressive problems coming from that. I am thankful that as far as couches go, it has been pretty comfortable. I have dealt with an angry protestant father of my children for this many years who felt I twisted his arm to get an annulment from his wife and put up with the stuff I have from other Catholics and people in general. If I didn’t believe the church was true in its teaching why would I go to such lengths?

If the church has a process to help this man, then he should try. but since it is try number two, I suggested educating himself.

I agree with the living as brother and sister, but I don’t know if you have had to do that. It embraces a myraid of problems especially if you have to do it without a willing partner. It is just a painful place going through this and if the church has a process that may or may not help…OP should try. If it doesn’t work, well at least he tried and on top of that, it has given him more life to live and learn about what God wants from him.

Do you realize we are on the same side of the fence here? I don’t think it is absolute until it is absolute. Before he moves out and leaves his family or his protestent wife who probably doesn’t understand at all, he should give it an educated try. Sometimes the appropriate help wasn’t given in the first place. Talk to all the people who are trying to live as brother and sister and who have one priest out of 4 tell her that was the right thing to do and one “spiritual director” who said it was impossible, and I think one was a canon lawyer…tell her that sleeping with this man she is civilly married to is fine. It causes much confusion, not all priests, or tribunal lawyers etc are on the same page with the Church. It makes the ground very shaky.

You speak as if you just KNOW how this stuff is. It just doesn’t work out the way people like you on CAF say it should. It gets spouted off as the right thing to do and when someone like me or anyone else follows the “living as brother and sister” answer, then we have to hunt for people who can support us emotionally. There are a lot of people like you on here who say “your only option is living as brother and sister” I agree but where is the support afterward? Where are the local people in the church I go to who support me in this? Why does the Church say to keep it on the DL (down low). Doesn’t anyone “get” the fact that it is a lonely path, not because you have a hostile person in your house but because you find that other Catholics have sympathy for the other person? For a while I just posted in the Annulments support group that Joanofarc2008 mentions. They are good people in there, supportive. But out here, I get blasted for doing the right thing, and I get blasted as if it is wrong.

So you explain to me, why that is? Why aren’t you more supportive of the truth of the matter? Where have you been these past 2+ years when I HAVE been living as brother and sister…actually not even that…where have you been to support me and people like me? We have had to abandon this forum with these problems and start a group to encourage one another. This is where I learned of how to handle my situation in the first place then, there is no emotional support anywhere.

So don’t come in here and act as if you KNOW the truth. I want to see people in Heaven. I am not their judge. God gave us the Church, then they gave us the Bible and over the years we have had doctrines already in place written down, and they have made an appeals process. If i had to do it again I don’t think I would approach it the same way if I had to do it again would you?

My point stands. If the church gives an appeal process, then if this man so chooses, he needs to read up on what he is answering. You are right and wrong at the same time GraceDK

 

[mamaslo]

Grace,

I think the appeal process is quite valid. I don’t doubt the OP was truthful in what he shared with the tribunal. However, it is quite clear, you believed/s all they needed to know was that she was a cheat.He believed this was enough info. Many people actually think infidelity is grounds for annulment.

IF his appeal it met with a declaration of null and void, I doubt it will be because he comes up with lies. I have a feeling, and this is my gut, it will be because he will realize that he needs to open up with much more, perhaps painful detail. He’s going to have to show them the heart of the matter.

Everyone gets asked the same questions. Yes. But not everyone is good at putting thoughts and actions into words. It’s like algebra. You can’t just give the answer. You HAVE to show your work. You have to show how you got to your answer.

It may very well be, he can’t prove his marriage was invalid. And this will be terribly painful. Because he is living in sin until this happens. The OP clings to “I did nothing wrong”, but that’s not the case. He is married to a cheat, and he’s living in a civil marriage to another woman he loves. This is heartbreaking. But it’s his reality. And this is an act he can UNDO. He can’t undo his children. Sadly for him and his current “wife”, he can undo their sinful living arrangements if necessary.

He is going to have to have the courage to stand up, appeal, and pray that IF the marriage is truly void and null, that he can present his best possible case.

You said it better than me, I gave a lot more info that didn’'t apply to the discussion. I am so tired myself.

 

[aicirt]

What do Cana conferences do regarding informing a couple about a valid or invalid marriage? I’ve googled and saw one that has the couple attend for nine months prior to the wedding.

Relative told the Cana priest that if anything effected his marriage, it would be his fiancee’s jealousy. If the groom is telling the priest this, I would think the priest would get the point that the groom was worried but the priest did not tell them to wait. He married the couple.

Another couple was pregnant. Priest said he would not marry them at that time because he felt couple were only marrying for the child’s sake. Couple went to another parish and got married. I understood the wisdom of the first priest.

How many priests actually refuse to marry a couple in a year?

 

[Luvtosew]

Faithfully,

NO I appreciate everything you said really, and you made a strong case.

and well one can dream, and hope and wish , and hopefully the rules of the CC were made clear to both parties, and well there won’t be any more excuses right. And well really wishing the best for them.

 

[AnneTeresa]

how can they be sorry for a sin that they have no intention in stopping?

then why is a vasectomy forgivable?

Very good point!

 

[AnneTeresa]

To the OP,

You have my empathy. It’s a really hard situation and annulment is a fallible and flawed process. If someone hasn’t gone through it they can’t really understand. I tried to send you a PM but apparently you’re not set up for that.

 

[faithfully]

Faithfully,

NO I appreciate everything you said really, and you made a strong case.

and well one can dream, and hope and wish , and hopefully the rules of the CC were made clear to both parties, and well there won’t be any more excuses right. And well really wishing the best for them.

I think we will find in the years to come, the rules were not clear for many… Education was allowed to slide. We all need to stand up and help correct this problem. That’s what’s happening here. Sometimes it hurts.

 

[faithfully]

Very good point!

It’s not a good point.

That’s like saying a person that commits murder can not be forgiven. We can be forgiven of ANY sin. But we can’t keep it up and intend to keep it up, if we can help it.

Once a person is dead, there is NOTHING we can do about it. The murderer can come to a place and see the error of his/her ways and feel true sorrow of his actions. And seek forgiveness. We know that person can truly be forgiven. But sadly, the body will not ever breath again. The murder, although perhaps forgiven by God, will live forever with the consequences of his actions. Shunned by society. Guilt, Shame, etc…

HOWEVER, this murderer can not say… “ok, good, got that off my chest… Now, who will be my next victim.”

So, often a man that gets a vasectomy doesn’t have a great understanding of how it’s offensive to God. He may do so without really having full knowledge of just how bad this is. If he does and he does it anyway… he’s got some major soul searching to do. He can’t just PRETEND to be sorry. But that also doesn’t mean he can’t come around to how bad this was, and truly be sorry. But he’ll never be able to undo the sin. He may be forgiven, but he will always know he has hurt God. It’s an ouch for sure. And see, the man that loses a testical or both to cancer does not commit a sin. He’s saving his own life. Being sterile is a side effect to that.

In this case as stated by the OP. The sin is correctable. Because the sin is repeated daily by staying with the current “wife”. This is why they call it LIVING in sin. The sin is STILL HAPPENING. HE can’t undo the past. but he can stop it from continuing. He’s going to have to make a very heart breaking decision. Once he sees that what he’s doing is a sin, IS a sin. He has no choice. Other than to KNOWINGLY move forward within the sin.

This situation is so much bigger than a forum answer. He needs to work closely with a preist who can guide him to the proper protection of his soul.

So for example. What if a person is stealing everyday at work. Can they be forgiven? Sure, if they STOP and are truly sorry. But you don’t get a “get out jail free” card every Sat. report to work monday and dip in the cookie jar again. Oh, and being forgiven doesn’t stop you from going to prison either. Consequences and all that.

I know many people that just think we say we’re sorry inbetween all of our pre meditated sins. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

[AnneTeresa]

It’s not a good point.

That’s like saying a person that commits murder can not be forgiven. We can be forgiven of ANY sin. But we can’t keep it up and intend to keep it up, if we can help it.

Once a person is dead, there is NOTHING we can do about it. The murderer can come to a place and see the error of his/her ways and feel true sorrow of his actions. And seek forgiveness. We know that person can truly be forgiven. But sadly, the body will not ever breath again. The murder, although perhaps forgiven by God, will live forever with the consequences of his actions. Shunned by society. Guilt, Shame, etc…

HOWEVER, this murderer can not say… “ok, good, got that off my chest… Now, who will be my next victim.”

So, often a man that gets a vasectomy doesn’t have a great understanding of how it’s offensive to God. He may do so without really having full knowledge of just how bad this is. If he does and he does it anyway… he’s got some major soul searching to do. He can’t just PRETEND to be sorry. But that also doesn’t mean he can’t come around to how bad this was, and truly be sorry. But he’ll never be able to undo the sin. He may be forgiven, but he will always know he has hurt God. It’s an ouch for sure. And see, the man that loses a testical or both to cancer does not commit a sin. He’s saving his own life. Being sterile is a side effect to that.

In this case as stated by the OP. The sin is correctable. Because the sin is repeated daily by staying with the current “wife”. This is why they call it LIVING in sin. The sin is STILL HAPPENING. HE can’t undo the past. but he can stop it from continuing. He’s going to have to make a very heart breaking decision. Once he sees that what he’s doing is a sin, IS a sin. He has no choice. Other than to KNOWINGLY move forward within the sin.

This situation is so much bigger than a forum answer. He needs to work closely with a preist who can guide him to the proper protection of his soul.

So for example. What if a person is stealing everyday at work. Can they be forgiven? Sure, if they STOP and are truly sorry. But you don’t get a “get out jail free” card every Sat. report to work monday and dip in the cookie jar again. Oh, and being forgiven doesn’t stop you from going to prison either. Consequences and all that.

I know many people that just think we say we’re sorry inbetween all of our pre meditated sins. It just doesn’t work that way.

All I have to say is, have you been through a divorce/annulment?

 

[rainbow1]

I am starting to get a rash from some of the unhelpful posts I am reading…lol! It is possible that some things we say in life are “right” and not “helpful”.

First of all, this man has said that he is looking into getting the appeal done. That is a very good thing, and his desire to recieve the Eucharist again is wonderful. He is searching to find a way to have the Truth he believes to be shown and acknowledged by our Church. It is his Church also. It is not only the OP’s opinion, but also the opinion of more than one priest he has faithfully connected with.

Second, for many divorced people, until alot of time has passed, it is not possible to give a complete and great description of their marriage. There are alot of reasons for it, but the mind has many ways to protect itself from pain. It is very possible that being further down the road, that this man may in fact be able to give a much better description and better assessment of his first marriage than he was years ago. He also has had some time to heal and time to rethink and time to assess things better. Divorce often brings up intense emotion and especially feelings of being threatened or rejected are extremely common. There are days, even now upon occasion, that I still, even years down the road, would think a coca cola machine didn’t give me the last coke because it rejected me…lol! Ok, I am teasing, but this is really a serious issue for many of us who have survived a horrible divorce. It takes time to heal.

Third, I have heard over and over the comments about his current marriage being a sinful thing for him. I, for one, also think there is another side to it. Yes, it would have been better for him to get the appeal done first. However, despite this, I do believe that from what he has said that this new relationship (and I am not talking about sex and marriage) has brought him much healing and has helped him in many ways to move forward in his life. He loves her. She loves him. They helped God create a child. He also is committed to her and she is committed to him as FRIENDS. As fellow human beings. As people who care, when noone else might. I ask that we don’t twist this into looking like something it isn’t, because there is also alot of goodness there. This couple (whether they have sex each night or not) are raising not only their child, but children from his first marriage. They are providing security in a bible reading family. They are working together to make something happen that sure didn’t happen in the first marriage. I am interested in how exactly this woman has helped him in his life. He is in a different place now than he was when he totally gave up on his Church. He is interested in coming back. Hooray! The OP has not elaborated much about how his current wife has helped him to grow and how he has helped her to grow. I am interested in that. It sounds like they have a supportive relationship where kindness is exercised…and that is a whole lot more than many Catholic families have who strut up to the Communion rail each Sunday after going to confession. (I am not putting down the sacrament of confession…which is a great gift). Sex is an issue, but it by far is not the only issue people should look at when tallying up other peoples sins for them. How about we also take these other type things also into account?

I appreciate so much the story of the lady who tried and tried to get her appeal. She must have a fantastic love for our wonderful Church, and she must have been a real inspiration to those who were blessed to watch her. When I get tired, I will think of her.

This is what I am curious about. I am wondering what has helped the OP to reconsider trying again after all this time. I am wondering how he feels when he doesn’t receive the Eucharist. I am wondering if he feels God would want him to or not. I am wondering how he actually survived when he found out the annulment didn’t go through. I think part of the reason I haven’t applied for my own annulment yet is fear of not getting it and having to look at that paper. I want him to tell me how, despite the consequences, he got up each morning after that day and continued on. I am sure there are lots of other Catholics out there with a huge love of God, with a huge love of the Blessed Eucharist, and also with alot of concern, sadness and terror at even the concept of having to live their lives alone permanently or give up the Eucharist if their annulments don’t go through. Of hearing the Church say to them that they could never again experience the beautiful earthly love of a human romantic embrace. It is too much to grasp. He must really love the Eucharist to have come to this forum.

 

[faithfully]

All I have to say is, have you been through a divorce/annulment?

I am married. I watched my sibling go through divorce and annulment. 2 very grueling processes. The divorce was devestating to all of us. We actually loved very much my siblings spouse. We were very fortunate to all get a long. But the marriage had some serious flaws. Once the civil divorce was final. The annulment process went forward. I have witnessed how heart wrenching the process is. How scary it was to realize that one might not be able to seek happiness in another marriage. Or to EVER have children.

I happen to have children through feritility treatment. I know first hand what is to commit a sin that results in a gift from God. I can’t take back the action that I’ve done. I would never apologize for the life they have. But I most whole heartedly with all my heart, having learned in the aftermath that what I did was considered terribly wrong, am so, so sorry that I have offended God. That I did not trust in God to get me to the other side on his terms. Oh, but I’ll tell you. I endure the consequences all the time. I get to hear about selfish people like me. I can’t express empathy towards an infertile couple that already know and understand the rules. In their eyes, I am a hypocrite. The list goes on. And I don’t like it. But that’s too bad. And I grapple with the thoughts of “would you do it again?” Cause I don’t know how to look into the eyes of my children and say no. I would die for them. And I pray by the Grace of God, I have not sentenced myself to hell. Can is say, that I won’t do it again. Yes. Am I sorry for the offense to God? Yes. Is that good enough? I hope so!

So, if your question is… Do I know what it means to be drug through the mud through no fault of my own, come to some conclusion about how to handle it, be wrong, and endure the consequences… Then Yes, I think I have a clue here. Life is not just hard for those who are cheated on. Life kicks the butt of many of us. And we often stink at dealing with it.

I understand how painful it is for a person to have to potentially accept they may not seek another spouse. I imagine it’s painful for a homosexual to realize either they stay with the teachings of Christ and not seek a “spouse”, or they don’t. I don’t claim to “like” the rule. I don’t claim not to struggle with it. But it’s the rule. It’s the teaching of Christ. This does not mean we don’t feel for someone. It means, when they start stirring wrong and they are headed into oneway traffic, we let them know. We don’t just say… Good luck. Hope your driving skills get you down the street. ( And further, when it’s a Catholic… I feel our obligation is a bit stronger.)

We say, Hey, slam on those breaks, and either back up fast, or turn this car around. The OP sees that there is potentially a way to correct all of this. With an appeal. He needed to hear that. I pray that he will be able to find the words, that IF his first marriage was not valid that he can properly express that so he can move on with his life. And if not, that he figure out how to protect his soul. That is most important. And well, if he doesn’t truly believe what he is doing is wrong… I imagine our very compassionate God will figure this out with the OP. I have no way of knowing how that will go down.

 

[faithfully]

I am starting to get a rash from some of the unhelpful posts I am reading…lol! It is possible that some things we say in life are “right” and not “helpful”… He must really love the Eucharist to have come to this forum.

Cut yours to take less space.

I think he’s quite drawn to come home and just needs to know how. He needed to see that he still has options. And really… he needs to exercise those options.

And the beauty of it all… He can come home. God wants him!

I think I’ll shush now…

 

[rainbow1]

I am married. I watched my sibling go through divorce and annulment. 2 very grueling processes. The divorce was devestating to all of us. We actually loved very much my siblings spouse. We were very fortunate to all get a long. But the marriage had some serious flaws. Once the civil divorce was final. The annulment process went forward. I have witnessed how heart wrenching the process is. How scary it was to realize that one might not be able to seek happiness in another marriage. Or to EVER have children.

I happen to have children through feritility treatment. I know first hand what is to commit a sin that results in a gift from God. I can’t take back the action that I’ve done. I would never apologize for the life they have. But I most whole heartedly with all my heart, having learned in the aftermath that what I did was considered terribly wrong, am so, so sorry that I have offended God. That I did not trust in God to get me to the other side on his terms. Oh, but I’ll tell you. I endure the consequences all the time. I get to hear about selfish people like me. I can’t express empathy towards an infertile couple that already know and understand the rules. In their eyes, I am a hypocrite. The list goes on. And I don’t like it. But that’s too bad. And I grapple with the thoughts of “would you do it again?” Cause I don’t know how to look into the eyes of my children and say no. I would die for them. And I pray by the Grace of God, I have not sentenced myself to hell. Can is say, that I won’t do it again. Yes. Am I sorry for the offense to God? Yes. Is that good enough? I hope so!

So, if your question is… Do I know what it means to be drug through the mud through no fault of my own, come to some conclusion about how to handle it, be wrong, and endure the consequences… Then Yes, I think I have a clue here. Life is not just hard for those who are cheated on. Life kicks the butt of many of us. And we often stink at dealing with it.

I understand how painful it is for a person to have to potentially accept they may not seek another spouse. I imagine it’s painful for a homosexual to realize either they stay with the teachings of Christ and not seek a “spouse”, or they don’t. I don’t claim to “like” the rule. I don’t claim not to struggle with it. But it’s the rule. It’s the teaching of Christ. This does not mean we don’t feel for someone. It means, when they start stirring wrong and they are headed into oneway traffic, we let them know. We don’t just say… Good luck. Hope your driving skills get you down the street. ( And further, when it’s a Catholic… I feel our obligation is a bit stronger.)

We say, Hey, slam on those breaks, and either back up fast, or turn this car around. The OP sees that there is potentially a way to correct all of this. With an appeal. He needed to hear that. I pray that he will be able to find the words, that IF his first marriage was not valid that he can properly express that so he can move on with his life. And if not, that he figure out how to protect his soul. That is most important. And well, if he doesn’t truly believe what he is doing is wrong… I imagine our very compassionate God will figure this out with the OP. I have no way of knowing how that will go down.

'He is also responsible to protect the souls of his wife and his children…

 

[oneofmany]

I would say it is time to get it reviewed. You are re-married and have children now.

Your first wife seems to have thrown her marriage away with being unfaithful. You were not the one to go outside your marriage. She might have thought she was serious when taking her vows but it turned out she was not. Maybe she was too immature when she got married to know what she wanted or what she was saying. It seems that way. ANYWAY, SHE BROKE HER VOWS WHEN SHE WENT OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE. That should be taken into consideration.

I would try again, plus I don’t know why any of it takes lots of money to get it looked into. When my hubby got his annulment it only cost him the time for the paperwork to be done, which was very little.

 

[PRmerger]

Yada,
since you know about this stuff, I have another question,

Can a Catholic woman who was never married get married to a divorced man in the Catholic Church, if the man is Protestant?

Thank you.

No, she cannot marry a man who is already married. He is not free to marry. And thus the Church cannot marry a couple when one of the people is not free to enter into a sacramental union.