Divorce

[PRmerger]

Thanks for all your support (good and bad), I will look at going for appeal. My feelings about the church teaching are just that, feelings and emotions, I find it all very difficult to make sense of. Obviously my upbringing in the Catholic faith as been incomplete to say the least.
I live by what Jesus taught us, have read the bible cover to cover in times of comfort and need.
I hope that my faith stays with me until I die.
I Pray that my ex-wife finds peace before death (I doubt that will happen though).
I do everything for my family, neighbours and friends, selflessly putting their needs before my own in every situation.
I am tired, so tired; I have done nothing wrong, yet I have be punished for someone elses crime.
My ex-destroyed my entire family, it still in pieces 10 years on (my ex had an affair with my uncle, yep my uncle of all people). I have pieced the remaining family together, it’s been long and painful, but I’ve done it.
My journey is obviously incomplete, I don’t know if I have enough energy left to make it to the end, but I will try.

Stay strong, stay faithful, and stay close to the Blessed Sacrament–you can receive Him spiritually each and every minute of the day, muff.

In Him is your strength and salvation.

 

[YADA]

Yada,
since you know about this stuff, I have another question,

Can a Catholic woman who was never married get married to a divorced man in the Catholic Church, if the man is Protestant?

Thank you.

The short answer:
Not unless that man submits his first marriage to Church for determination on its validity and he is granted an annulment or other determination that his marriage was not sacramental …

Given an affirmative decision - they would then have to submit the proper request for a mixed marriage [Catholic/Protestant ] - unless the man then converted and they married as two Catholics in a proper Catholic ceremony

 

[mamaslo]

This is what I am curious about. I am wondering what has helped the OP to reconsider trying again after all this time. I am wondering how he feels when he doesn’t receive the Eucharist. I am wondering if he feels God would want him to or not. I am wondering how he actually survived when he found out the annulment didn’t go through. I think part of the reason I haven’t applied for my own annulment yet is fear of not getting it and having to look at that paper. I want him to tell me how, despite the consequences, he got up each morning after that day and continued on. I am sure there are lots of other Catholics out there with a huge love of God, with a huge love of the Blessed Eucharist, and also with alot of concern, sadness and terror at even the concept of having to live their lives alone permanently or give up the Eucharist if their annulments don’t go through. Of hearing the Church say to them that they could never again experience the beautiful earthly love of a human romantic embrace. It is too much to grasp. He must really love the Eucharist to have come to this forum.

Actually, this is a therapeutic approach. I like your idea. We have to work with people where they are.

 

[muffindell]

Rainbow, you are correct in many ways. When I applied for annulment I had to dig up the past, it brought it all back to the fore, the heart ache, pain and upset. I was reliving it all over again, it was awful. I felt nervous and shaky, totally unsettled. Even when I think about it now, the same thing happens, it’s a part of my life that nearly destroyed me, thank heavens for my children, they gave me so much in ways that they will never know.

Anyway, I have been thinking about applying for appeal and what else could I add to my statement. I have something that may help, can all of you kind people give a view.
Four years after my ex and I were married she had an affair with my uncle. We separated, but got back together several months later. My local priest was a great support to me. Later that year we took our marriage vows AGAIN. Less than 18 months later she had another affair. After much heartache the priest said that this could not go on, it was destroying me. We divorced.
Now I ask, since my ex took her marriage vows twice and obviously totally disregarded the meaning of them, were they actually valid in the first place? Taking into consideration that we did take the vows twice, confirming that it was not just a mistake of understanding what the vows meant.
I look forward to hearing from you all.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Rainbow, you are correct in many ways. When I applied for annulment I had to dig up the past, it brought it all back to the fore, the heart ache, pain and upset. I was reliving it all over again, it was awful. I felt nervous and shaky, totally unsettled. Even when I think about it now, the same thing happens, it’s a part of my life that nearly destroyed me, thank heavens for my children, they gave me so much in ways that they will never know.

Anyway, I have been thinking about applying for appeal and what else could I add to my statement. I have something that may help, can all of you kind people give a view.
Four years after my ex and I were married she had an affair with my uncle. We separated, but got back together several months later. My local priest was a great support to me. Later that year we took our marriage vows AGAIN. Less than 18 months later she had another affair. After much heartache the priest said that this could not go on, it was destroying me. We divorced.
Now I ask, since my ex took her marriage vows twice and obviously totally disregarded the meaning of them, were they actually valid in the first place? Taking into consideration that we did take the vows twice, confirming that it was not just a mistake of understanding what the vows meant.
I look forward to hearing from you all.

First you need to go back to the time of your marriage. I know this is hard but it is being wrapped up at what happened after marriage that hurt your case in the first place. You need to find past dating behaviors. Things she may have said to friends, etc. If you don’t you are only providing them the same type of evidence you did last time which is not grounds for a decree of nullity.

 

[PRmerger]

Now I ask, since my ex took her marriage vows twice and obviously totally disregarded the meaning of them, were they actually valid in the first place?

That is not something that anyone on the CAFs is able to determine, muff.

 

[Luvtosew]

So OK, if two Protestants , married (no divorces) become Catholic, there is no problem,
no need to remarry in the CC since neither were divorced? Right?

 

[Sillara]

So OK, if two Protestants , married (no divorces) become Catholic, there is no problem,
no need to remarry in the CC since neither were divorced? Right?

Correct. My husband and I were in that exact position.

 

[Gorgias]

Anyway, I have been thinking about applying for appeal and what else could I add to my statement. I have something that may help, can all of you kind people give a view.
Four years after my ex and I were married she had an affair with my uncle. We separated, but got back together several months later. My local priest was a great support to me. Later that year we took our marriage vows AGAIN. Less than 18 months later she had another affair. After much heartache the priest said that this could not go on, it was destroying me. We divorced.
Now I ask, since my ex took her marriage vows twice and obviously totally disregarded the meaning of them, were they actually valid in the first place? Taking into consideration that we did take the vows twice, confirming that it was not just a mistake of understanding what the vows meant.

Aah… this adds important elements to your story! (Please note, though, that I am not a canon lawyer…)

OK, let me ask you – when you said that you “took your vows again”, was it an official convalidation of the marriage? In other words, did you go to the priest, saying, “look, based on her behavior, it seems to us that there was a defect of consent on her part – at the time of the marriage, she didn’t intend fidelity. However, now we both do intend to hold to everything that a Catholic marriage is supposed to be, so we want to do it right”. Was that how it went down?

That would be important in knowing what the court decided. I’m assuming that you know what legal claim you made in your formal petition for annulment? I’m assuming that the response was “negative”, and you know the reasons why? Was it, perhaps, that you contended that the convalidation was invalid, and the court found that this wasn’t the case? (No need to give details if you don’t want to, of course.)

Also, please be aware that there are time limits on appeals. It will depend on the amount of time since the decision, on whether you can file an appeal. I’m assuming that your advocate recommended against an appeal? And your advocate had a reason for such a recommendation?

Keeping you in prayer,

G.

 

[Gorgias]

So OK, if two Protestants , married (no divorces) become Catholic, there is no problem,
no need to remarry in the CC since neither were divorced? Right?

There’s a little more to it than that. (Again, I’m not a canon lawyer (and no one here has asserted that they are, either, so we’re all in “grain of salt” territory, right? ))

If two baptized non-Catholic Christians marry validly according to their denomination(s), then the Church considers their marriage to have been sacramental. If their marriage isn’t valid according to their denomination, then the Catholic Church might consider the marriage not valid. (For instance, if the couple was married by a JP.) If that were the case, then it would be necessary to convalidate the marriage; if this were done, then they would be considered to have been validly married for the entire duration of the marriage, not just from the point of convalidation onward.

If the marriage is valid and sacramental, then this has two effects that are relevant here:

First, if they both become Catholic, then there is no need to have a convalidation of the marriage in the Catholic Church, since their marriage was already sacramental at the time they married.

Of course, that leads to a particular side effect that takes people by surprise: let’s suppose that this validly, sacramentally married couple divorces. One of the spouses meets a Catholic, and these two wish to be married. Since the Church considers the first marriage of the Protestant to have been valid and sacramental, then the Church would consider it necessary to get an affirmative decision through the nullity process before she would be willing to marry this couple. (In the example that was given a few pages back, everyone said, “yes, yes, you need an annulment”, without asking anything that established that the first (Protestant) marriage was valid and sacramental. That kind of presumption can lead to incorrect conclusions… )

Make sense? Hope this helps…

 

[Luvtosew]

Gorgias
Yes thank you, of course every scenerio is different, and what appears to look like a difficult situation can be not so difficult if one had a civil marriage, or two even, its like they have never been married. Tell a civily married person that and well they would disagree.

 

[styrgwillidar]

(Please note, though, that I am not a canon lawyer…)

But there is a canon lawyer who answers questions in the divorce and annulment group.

forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=958

–thread is titled “ask a canon lawyer”

 

[rainbow1]

Rainbow, you are correct in many ways. When I applied for annulment I had to dig up the past, it brought it all back to the fore, the heart ache, pain and upset. I was reliving it all over again, it was awful. I felt nervous and shaky, totally unsettled. Even when I think about it now, the same thing happens, it’s a part of my life that nearly destroyed me, thank heavens for my children, they gave me so much in ways that they will never know.

Anyway, I have been thinking about applying for appeal and what else could I add to my statement. I have something that may help, can all of you kind people give a view.
Four years after my ex and I were married she had an affair with my uncle. We separated, but got back together several months later. My local priest was a great support to me. Later that year we took our marriage vows AGAIN. Less than 18 months later she had another affair. After much heartache the priest said that this could not go on, it was destroying me. We divorced.
Now I ask, since my ex took her marriage vows twice and obviously totally disregarded the meaning of them, were they actually valid in the first place? Taking into consideration that we did take the vows twice, confirming that it was not just a mistake of understanding what the vows meant.
I look forward to hearing from you all.

Muffindell,
Oh my heart continues to break for you as you describe getting nervous, shaky, and totally unsettled as you review the first marriage in applying for the annulment and now again for the appeal. I so know what you are talking about…I have made more than one attempt to go and get my annulment going,and each time there is a mini-meltdown…I cancelled the last appt by email…ughhh…but am considering starting up again for lent. I know the thing that will help me is for me to find just the right thing to offer the pain up for. If I know it will help someone else, I will be more likely to do it! And maybe it will be for your appeal and for you to get the peace and joy your heart so needs right now. That is the great thing about CAF, there are lots of prayer horses here that will pray for us as we all have such needs…and so many of us either are working towards annulment , or appeal as is your case.

Please let us know what the CAF canon lawyer suggests. I suspect that your exwife was in no better psychological condition during the second set of vows than in the first. I bet she had some issues going on that had made a holy commitment impossible for her even if she had so hoped to be able to do that for you and for herself . I so hope she is healing. Sometimes it just takes years for psychological conditions to really become apparent as a pattern. Don’t blame yourself for not identifying it early on. It is especially difficult if the partner has not shared the reasons.

I am glad your children have helped you to keep seeing the good things and beautiful things in life. They are such an extension of God’s love, don’t you think? Do everything you can think of to nurture yourself right now and to take time to do special things for yourself. I am not a guy, so I am not so sure what all to suggest, but us women sure do know the greatness of spa time, chick flicks and bubblebaths!!! LOL! What is the male equivalent? Think about the things you have done in the past to nurture yourself and do lots and lots of that!

Please do find an adoration chapel or a tabernacle to pray in front of on a regular basis. You will find such wonderful blessings there. And such peace. I will be offering up my Eucharist for you tomorrow at noon mass. Please keep us posted on what you find out.
Blessings!

 

[rainbow1]

You are right, I have thought this through and through and when there was no support I would open the catechism and reread what it has to say, it reassured me that what we have is not right. But it might get that way, but we as a culture have decided that people over rule God and that is twisted into our own image. I am Catholic and need to follow those rules.

Even before hand, the Holy Spirit in a still small voice asked me “who is going to do the annulment?” When I did not even know what one was until then. So it wasn’t right from the start. Even if I wanted it to be. I still do not know the outcome. It does rely on what the tribunal says.

thanks for the understanding you CAN give. I haven’t said it won’t be a sacrament eventually, but the jury is literally out (on more than one level).

Hi Mamaslo…I just wanted you to know I have had you on my mind nonstop and have been praying for you…I also have a messed up disc, and I am offering up the pain for you and your situation…I am feeling so sad for both you and your husband…especially thinking of you sleeping on the couch with a bad back yourself…is there any hope that you guys could be in the same room if you both agree to certain boundaries? This might sound sort of silly, but would it be possible for you guys to pretend you are a really, really elderly couple who just have certain limitations and yet maybe still enjoy the cuddling/back rubs/ etc. that would not be offensive to either of you? I am just thinking that if your ex (and I am sure you are too) is missing the groundingness of physical touch that maybe you could still do certain things…foot massages, hand massages…etc. that would help provide a physical connection to help your friendship and affection for each other keep growing during this difficult time. And I so think it would help the kids to see you hugging and all. You could pretend you are dating even and maybe add some humor back into the relationship. Maybe it could become almost a kind of competition to see which of you can come up with the most ways to reconnect (on a nonsexual level to respect your wishes) and whoever gets the most ways or demonstrates it the most each week gets some reward…you know, turn it into a game. I don’t know what-all you have tried, but am just thinking that despite how any of this turns out, the two of you are so darn lucky to have someone there for each other and to be able to go through the daily living stuff together. I am so hoping that you guys find a way to keep cherishing the goodness you do have and always will have.

 

[rainbow1]

I am married. I watched my sibling go through divorce and annulment. 2 very grueling processes. The divorce was devestating to all of us. We actually loved very much my siblings spouse. We were very fortunate to all get a long. But the marriage had some serious flaws. Once the civil divorce was final. The annulment process went forward. I have witnessed how heart wrenching the process is. How scary it was to realize that one might not be able to seek happiness in another marriage. Or to EVER have children.

I happen to have children through feritility treatment. I know first hand what is to commit a sin that results in a gift from God. I can’t take back the action that I’ve done. I would never apologize for the life they have. But I most whole heartedly with all my heart, having learned in the aftermath that what I did was considered terribly wrong, am so, so sorry that I have offended God. That I did not trust in God to get me to the other side on his terms. Oh, but I’ll tell you. I endure the consequences all the time. I get to hear about selfish people like me. I can’t express empathy towards an infertile couple that already know and understand the rules. In their eyes, I am a hypocrite. The list goes on. And I don’t like it. But that’s too bad. And I grapple with the thoughts of “would you do it again?” Cause I don’t know how to look into the eyes of my children and say no. I would die for them. And I pray by the Grace of God, I have not sentenced myself to hell. Can is say, that I won’t do it again. Yes. Am I sorry for the offense to God? Yes. Is that good enough? I hope so!

So, if your question is… Do I know what it means to be drug through the mud through no fault of my own, come to some conclusion about how to handle it, be wrong, and endure the consequences… Then Yes, I think I have a clue here. Life is not just hard for those who are cheated on. Life kicks the butt of many of us. And we often stink at dealing with it.

I understand how painful it is for a person to have to potentially accept they may not seek another spouse. I imagine it’s painful for a homosexual to realize either they stay with the teachings of Christ and not seek a “spouse”, or they don’t. I don’t claim to “like” the rule. I don’t claim not to struggle with it. But it’s the rule. It’s the teaching of Christ. This does not mean we don’t feel for someone. It means, when they start stirring wrong and they are headed into oneway traffic, we let them know. We don’t just say… Good luck. Hope your driving skills get you down the street. ( And further, when it’s a Catholic… I feel our obligation is a bit stronger.)

We say, Hey, slam on those breaks, and either back up fast, or turn this car around. The OP sees that there is potentially a way to correct all of this. With an appeal. He needed to hear that. I pray that he will be able to find the words, that IF his first marriage was not valid that he can properly express that so he can move on with his life. And if not, that he figure out how to protect his soul. That is most important. And well, if he doesn’t truly believe what he is doing is wrong… I imagine our very compassionate God will figure this out with the OP. I have no way of knowing how that will go down.

Faithfully,
I have so been thinking about your post, and about the trials you have suffered with the decision to go through with fertility treatment, your hurt over possibly “offending” God , and your questions about your salvation as a result. You know, when I think about it, I sort of suspect that God would want you to see your precious children as the treasure that He has given you as physical proof of His love and forgiveness for you. I am not saying that God ever punishes by causing infertility…I don’t believe that. Our Loving God doesn’t work in that way. But what I am saying is that maybe in your situation God already knew that you would have such painful feelings of remorse and would want to lessen that for you by giving you these children to make you smile each and every day and to let you know He loves you and gives you His Love and Mercy no matter what! I think God gives His gifties in different ways to different people, and I so suspect He chose to do this for you. There have been many times in my life where I have unfortunately soooo offended God, and then tried to do something really sweet for Him just to show him I was sorry and what I often have found is that He in turn did something even sweeter… He always out tops us in generosity !!! As far as your fears of salvation…tell Him of your fear…Jesus told us over and over while He was on earth, in fact more than anything else, that he hoped we didn’t feel frightened…“do not fear”…ask him directly and bluntly to let you put this burden of fear down and never let you pick it up again. I know this is what He wishes for you. He will help you do it. This is not asking much of anything to a God who made the whole universe and the mountains and oceans, and precious babies…even physically act it out, if you can, by putting a heavy booksachel or purse over your shoulder and throw it down in front of the tabernacle…saying,“Here it is God, you can deal with this pain and remorse better than me, so take it!” …I am so sure that sometimes the things we as humans think are so horrible really don’t look so horrible to our Lord… he is just allowing us to get ourselves into a little mess so that we learn things for us to use for ministering for Him down the road…
Oh, also, thanks so much for sharing your painful story with us…reminds me none of us are alone in this type of thing…blessings…

 

[Gorgias]

if one had a civil marriage, or two even, its like they have never been married. Tell a civily married person that and well they would disagree.

LOL – so true. Of course, though, it’s not like the Church says, “you’re not married”; it’s that the Church is saying, “your marriage wasn’t sacramental”, which is a whole different thing – and likely, something that wouldn’t cause heartburn to the people hearing it!

 

[Luvtosew]

LOL – so true. Of course, though, it’s not like the Church says, “you’re not married”; it’s that the Church is saying, “your marriage wasn’t sacramental”, which is a whole different thing – and likely, something that wouldn’t cause heartburn to the people hearing it!

and according to the Church your living in sin.

 

[PRmerger]

and according to the Church your living in sin.

Oh no, Luv. This is absolutely incorrect. The Church does not consider 2 married non-Catholic people to be living in sin, even if their marriage may not be sacramental.

Unless you can provide a source that says that the Church views 2 non-Catholics who are legally married to be living in sin?

(Please note to the lurkers, especially those not familiar with Catholic teaching: not everything that a Catholic says is correct regarding what the Church actually teaches.)

 

[Luvtosew]

Are you sure, that a civily married couple , married by a justice of peace , is not considered as living in sin by the Church, then why can they not receive the Eucharist?

How about two Catholics? in a civil union, male and female of course?

 

[PRmerger]

Are you sure, that a civily married couple , married by a justice of peace , is not considered as living in sin by the Church, then why can they not receive the Eucharist?

Because they’re not Catholic. Only Catholics can receive the Eucharist, Luv. (Or Orthodox, of course).

How about two Catholics? in a civil union, male and female of course?

Well, we were talking about non-Catholics initially.

But if you bring up this issue, 2 Catholics who do not follow the norms for their Church to get married cannot then claim they want the benefits of the Church when it pleases them.