Divorce

[rainbow1]

Muffindell,
My heart truly goes out to you after reading your post. You have experienced such frustration…I can only imagine! But in reading your post, I also see so many strengths …not only did you survive a disasterous marriage (it has to be pretty bad for even a priest to say he doesn’t see any other choice!), but you have also maintained an open heart, have brought a beautiful new life into this world, and still have kept up your responsibilities to your children from your first marriage. Applause!
In fact you also sought an annulment before entering into another marriage, and after quite a period of time. I can only imagine the disgust that you felt when you did not recieve it. It is such an emotional upheaval to go through the annulment process, and you did that, despite your own personal misery. Please do not let this discourage you. The annulment process is done by human beings, and although they try to do their best, they don’t always get it right. That is why it is possible to appeal the results. I think over time, especially in your new marriage, you have aquired more insight and information about how this new marriage is worthy of the Church’s blessing and how your first marriage should be classified as null. You are truly the only person , other than yourfirst wife, that can provide all the details that the Church needs to understand your first marriage in fullness. The priests don’t know the exact nature of your relationship, but they as well as the entire Church are very interested in knowing that your truths are revealed. So I encourage you to go through the appeal process.
I have read recently that 80% of divorced Catholics leave the faith. I find that very, very sad. The Church needs you and your family. You now are in a family that demonstrates love and hope, and this is something that many unhealthy families in the Church need to see demonstrated. Upon returning to the Church you will find boundless opportunities to minister to folks who have been through what you dealt with in your first marriage and who need your warmth and compassion. Perhaps God allowed you to suffer what you did in order to be able to help others in the Church to maintain their love of our Lord, which you obviously have been able to do, or you wouldn’t be posting here.
As far as receiving or not receiving the Eucharist, do not let that disturb you. Is there an adoration chapel near where you live, or even a tabernacle you can regularly pray in front of? Please partake of that. You can ask the Lord to come to you in a spiritual Communion, and you will receive so many blessings and graces. Please return to going to mass. When you do not receive the Eucharist, you can offer up your pain for the tribunal process and you can offer it up for the poor souls who are still in families that are broken and who are struggling to find out what to do… Our Lord will be right there with you during mass. He knows your soul, and He knows what you have been through. And you are right, He loves you sooo much. He will keep letting you know that and will give you the grace to start a new ministry to help people in the Church who are going through what you have already been through and have successfully survived. Ask our Lady to put her mantle around your shoulders and protect you from further undue harm. Visualize how wonderful it will be to finally get your current marriage blessed by the Church. This Sunday when I am in mass I will be offering my Eucharist for you and asking our Lord to let all the benefits of It to be yours spiritually. We are all a Church family. All of us have had serious struggles in life, and yet we all need each other, including you and your family to be whole. May our Lord continue to bless you and give you the fortitude and encouragement you need to endure these times.

 

[ricofall]

Mary Gail, I assume you are sighting canon law. Canon law is man made, it did not come from the God or more to the point Jesus; unless that is you can prove me wrong?

Cannon law comes from the apostles. Then it became what we know if it today. In the early Church, Christians lived in communities. They had to because of the whole persecution thing. The first laws were written to govern the community and the Church. In fact, a type of Canon law came before the new testament. If you read Romans 7:1-12, the law that St. Paul is referring to is Cannon Law for that community.

As the Church grew and became more organized, Canon law became more centralized as well. Remember that the Church came before the Bible. In the first 300+ years, there was no Bible.

Keep in mind, I am just trying to answer your question.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t believe most of you know God, but you know the Cathechism.

How did a person running for office of the presidency become a Catholic in 2008?

Where do you think David is now, he was a murderer and an adultress?

What about people who cheat on their spouses, go to confession and then receive communion.

Do people not get a second chance in life?

there seem to be several posters who just love to condem other humans and put them in the ground, stomp on them and tell them how horrible they are.

Really? mind sharing names with us?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I seem to remember that asking forgiveness in confession did mean that ALL your sins were forgiven, this obviously doesnt apply to someone who is divorced.

Your sins are forgiven if you repent and stop sinning. If you keep sinning, you have to keep going to confession, and if it is apparent to the priest that you are in a state of grave sin and don’t intend to stop, the priest can exercise his authority from Christ to say that you cannot be forgiven until you have resolved to stop sinning.

As a divorced and REMARRIED OUTSIDE THE CHURCH person, you are in a state of mortal sin. You are not attempting to regularize the situation by either separating from your second wife–which I am NOT recommending you do, nor is it demanded by the Church–nor are you living as ‘brother and sister’ which would be a valid option. Thus, you are still sinning and you have no intention of stopping–how CAN Christ forgive you? Nowhere has it ever been taught in Christian teaching that Christ will forgive somebody who doesn’t stop the sinning; only that he will forgive over and over IF you stop. . .then start, then stop. But you have to stop the sin to be forgiven in the first place. But for you, you have never stopped. And I don’t mean this harshly, I’m not saying you’re wicked or evil, I’m simply stating the facts that Jesus Himself would say to you. Maybe if you thought, truly thought, in your heart that the priest was acting in persona Christi you COULD accept this, but it seems to me that you are really trying to make all this into a 'it’s not GOD saying this but MEN". That is simply not true, no matter how deeply you want to believe it, and I am very, very sorry that you are feeling like this.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Mary Gail, I assume you are sighting canon law. Canon law is man made, it did not come from the God or more to the point Jesus; unless that is you can prove me wrong?

Wait, what now? You’re saying that God established a Church and told us that the Holy Spirit would lead us to all truth (and HOW is He supposed to do that?) but that canon law is not from God? None of it? Some of it? What parts are, then? How do you know?

Men wrote the Scripture under God’s authority and you accept that.
Men write the laws (this goes back to Judaism and laws you accept from THAT tradition) and Christ Himself upholds them. . .
but somehow the Catholic Church can’t write law under God’s authority and have you accept them? What happened?

 

[rainbow1]

I have a request that all the posters on this thread please stop for a minute and pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us in this conversation and that all will be charitable towards one another in the spirit of trying to truly come up with helpful suggestions that will help the OP and his family become reunited with the Church family…not to get bogged down in details or needless worry, but to stay focused on helping our brother in Christ to continue to seek our Lord…
Blessings.

 

[choose_to_love]

even for such a topic.

for the record, 1ke, tantum, and PR, with you all the way on this one. I did not perceive any put-down of the OP. These things break my heart; usually that is reserved for the NFP/contraception threads. Rascal, I’m surprised.

As to comments about who does or doesn’t know God, really, how can that be anything but judgmental in the bad way, i.e., making a call on the person, not on an action. Or commenting on a font color? Really?

OP, your query about receiving has been answered a couple of times, it seems - - if one receives unworthily, one brings judgment on oneself. I get that you are hurting - - who wouldn’t be - - but I do not read any respect for the Church in any of your posts. Your repeated references to “where is that in Bible” was properly addressed by PR, for which I do not think you had a response. How do we know what books are to be in the Bible - - where is the inspired table of contents? We know because the Church has the authority, granted by Christ, to make this call, guided of course by the Holy Spirit.

 

[1inICXC]

Just one more question, where in the bible does it say that I can’t receive Holy Communion?

Where in the Bible does it say that everything we say, do and believe must be written in the Bible?

Jesus didn’t leave us a Bible, He left us the Church. I have no doubt He could’ve done it otherwise, but He didn’t.

I am sorry for your situation, it must be an incredibly difficult one. None of us know what will become of our spouses with time. We pray, we make the best of our preparation time BEFORE marriage, but then, like Christ, if we must, we climb our Calvary and die that’s what we VOW to in from of God. Perhaps, many of us don’t think about this one. We think that “the worse” in " for better or worse" is all hypothetical, and then we expect the Church to change the definition to suit out intentions…

You feel justified in your choice because your wife was unfaithful, some people would feel justified if their spouse were abusive, alcoholic, if they lose their physical abilities etc. And that could happen with the first spouse, and then with a second and then with the third. Where would you draw the line?

Who should be entitled to remarry? How many times? Why is marriage even important? If you would sincerely answer these questions for “others”, you will have an easier time identifying where you really stand, what faith, and God, and His laws truly represent in your life.

 

[styrgwillidar]

**This is why living as brother and sister is an option. **

isn’t that like living a lie, when the two people have feelings for each other as a man and women. like we all know God knows the heart, and he knows the feelings one has for the other.

is lying a lesser sin?

Well, a sin is a sin. Why do you think abstaining from sex is some kind of lie? Just because I have feelings-- it gives me permission to act on them? Living in accordance with the Church’s teaching isn’t a lie.

What is a lie is breaking one’s vows. Perhaps you need to consider that marriage is a sacrament, not a contract. It is a covenant between a man, a woman and God. Just because my wife moved out and is with someone else doesn’t alleviate me from the responsibility to keep to the vow I made to God. For better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness health. Yeah, it’s a lot worse than I ever thought it would get. I didn’t think I was taking a vow of celibacy, I didn’t think I was taking a vow to be a single Dad. But this is in fact what I vowed to do-- love despite everything and anything. This is how it’s worked out for now. Because my ex-wife decided not to uphold her vows doesn’t free me from the vow - which I freely took-- to God.

If I won’t keep my word to God. Who can trust me?

No, the OP is in a tough position because people led him to believe he clearly had valid grounds for an annulment. They apparantly convinced him that it was such a sure thing he felt he could become involved with someone else. His life and choices are intertwined with people who depend on him.

Does God understand, does God forgive him? I don’t know. I can’t know. I can only look to the teaching’s of the Church Christ founded, whom He entrusted with the authority to hold bound or free in heaven what they bind or free on earth. I only know I will not presume His forgiveness for sins. Particularly those I would continue to do against the teachings of His Church. I can only strive to love and forgive as He instructed us to do if we expect to receive His love and forgiveness ourselves.

 

[Rita77]

Where in the Bible does it say that everything we say, do and believe must be written in the Bible?

Jesus didn’t leave us a Bible, He left us the Church. I have no doubt He could’ve done it otherwise, but He didn’t.

I am sorry for your situation, it must be an incredibly difficult one. None of us know what will become of our spouses with time. We pray, we make the best of our preparation time BEFORE marriage, but then, like Christ, if we must, we climb our Calvary and die that’s what we VOW to in from of God. Perhaps, many of us don’t think about this one. We think that “the worse” in " for better or worse" is all hypothetical, and then we expect the Church to change the definition to suit out intentions…

You feel justified in your choice because your wife was unfaithful, some people would feel justified if their spouse were abusive, alcoholic, if they lose their physical abilities etc. And that could happen with the first spouse, and then with a second and then with the third. Where would you draw the line?

Who should be entitled to remarry? How many times? Why is marriage even important? If you would sincerely answer these questions for “others”, you will have an easier time identifying where you really stand, what faith, and God, and His laws truly represent in your life.

I think you can scrach off the “bit of protestant” off your religous title. I don’t see it in your posts. your just Catholic

 

[TheRealJuliane]

how can they be sorry for a sin that they have no intention in stopping?

then why is a vasectomy forgivable?

If a person has a vasectomy and does not regret or repent, then he is in mortal sin until such time as he does repent. When there is repentance, there can be absolution.

However, just confessing the sin does not undo the vasectomy, obviously. The consequences and regret from that decision, a sinful decision, will remain with the person for the rest of his life, most likely.

The OP, while displaying anger AT THE CHURCH and his ex-wife, has expressed no regret or repentance of marrying his 2nd wife before he knew his first marriage was annulled. So how can he confess that sin? Again, it is not the divorce that caused his separation, but the remarriage that put him into adultery.

Did you have any catechesis growing up? Are you doubting the Church or are you faithful? This seems to be an issue that you are responding very strongly to. I wonder why?

 

[muffindell]

Tantum, you arent seeing my point. The Christian church was founded by the apostles, they went out and taught what Jesus had shown or told them. Each one of them had a different experience and point of view of this teaching ( there are many contradicting examples in the gospels). When these biographies were brought together some were left out, (Thomas, Mary etc). Misinterpretation, mispelling, different point of views are common, unfortuately a mis-spelt word can mean something totally different and can change the context in which it was written.
Canon law can only be taken from that that is the Holy Bible, otherwise it is not true to Christianity, anything else is fabricated to suit the cause and misrule of 2000 years ago.
I still havent had response to where in the bible does it say that a divorced person (or adulterous person for that matter) cant receive Holy Communion.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Tantum, you arent seeing my point. The Christian church was founded by the apostles, they went out and taught what Jesus had shown or told them. Each one of them had a different experience and point of view of this teaching ( there are many contradicting examples in the gospels). When these biographies were brought together some were left out, (Thomas, Mary etc). Misinterpretation, mispelling, different point of views are common, unfortuately a mis-spelt word can mean something totally different and can change the context in which it was written.
Canon law can only be taken from that that is the Holy Bible, otherwise it is not true to Christianity, anything else is fabricated to suit the cause and misrule of 2000 years ago.
I still havent had response to where in the bible does it say that a divorced person (or adulterous person for that matter) cant receive Holy Communion.

It doesn’t. It’s what the apostles taught. Do you not accept any of the Church’s teachings about things that aren’t in the Bible. For example, the Marian Doctrines?

 

[rainbow1]

I still am of the hope/ belief that we as devout Catholics can stop and pray that we can figure out ways to help this man become reunited with his Faith. We can’t possibly explain or teach all of the Church teachings in this thread (well, I guess we can, but it will take lots of time), but we can help him to feel welcome to come back to his Church and help him with figuring out the first steps of that. I see alot of defensiveness going on here, and don’t think this will end up being productive. He needs encouragement to see a priest, and to not feel as an outcast. Having a “shout out” about what is right and wrong will not help anyone. Sometimes in addition to being “right” we have to be prudent in our timing. Kind communication is what is going to help him see what the Catholic faith is trying to give him. Let’s not focus on “you are a sinner” but on “let me help you figure out how to untangle this mess so that you can live a pure and holy and happy life” and "receive the Eucharist with the blessings our Church that we hold so dear.
Unless I have misinterpreted this thread, his initial cry out to us one of feeling despair at not being able to receive the Eucharist and so wishing his marriage could be blessed. Yes, it may end up that he needs to live a celibate lifestyle forever, but hey, the opposite is more likely true…more likely his first wife had some major psychological stuff going on…and why not give this man hope? It seems more likely that he will be able to get the annulment if he appeals…he just needs a little hope to keep trying. He sounds tired. We can find all the areas that he doesn’t understand certain details of this or that, but ultimately all he needs to know right now is the very first step to get him back to talking to the Church about what he believes is the truth of his first marriage.
Is there anyone out there that can give this man encouragement on this? Has someone out there actually done an appeal and had it work? Has anyone actually got an annulement through lots of strain and difficulty and then found love which was true and lasting? And holy? Are there some men who can share their pain of moving beyond an adultrous first marriage and how they once again found peace and contentment and joy? If so, how did you guys actually do that? As a divorced woman, about to start the annulment process, I know it is not easy!!! Is there someone who made the same mistakes that are being pointed out and who would share with the OP how they turned their life around?
Let’s make this thread a constructive thing so that we can help this man and each other grow.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Tantum, you arent seeing my point. The Christian church was founded by the apostles, they went out and taught what Jesus had shown or told them. Each one of them had a different experience and point of view of this teaching ( there are many contradicting examples in the gospels). When these biographies were brought together some were left out, (Thomas, Mary etc). Misinterpretation, mispelling, different point of views are common, unfortuately a mis-spelt word can mean something totally different and can change the context in which it was written.
Canon law can only be taken from that that is the Holy Bible, otherwise it is not true to Christianity, anything else is fabricated to suit the cause and misrule of 2000 years ago.
I still havent had response to where in the bible does it say that a divorced person (or adulterous person for that matter) cant receive Holy Communion.

If you question Sola Scriptura vs Sacred Tradition which is a major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism (which the CofE is a part of) why is it that you wish to be Catholic?
If you do not believe that the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture why is it that you wish to be Catholic?
If you do not believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ why is it that you wish to be Catholic?

If you accept those things you have to accept the Church’s teachings. Are you here looking for answers or to start issues?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The OP is rejecting the Church’s authority. That goes a little bit beyond anything in his first post. Everyone has recommended that he try to appeal his annulment. He is not listening and does not want that advice. Several forum members have also jumped to his defense and are contradicting Church teaching, and saying we’re mean because we won’t budge on what God says about marriage.

Now the OP is arguing about Scripture.

This is what ex-Catholics sometimes do - come here, rant, rave, tear down the Church, etc. Protestants do it to, they just disguise themselves less well. And usually Catholics don’t jump to their defense.

 

[rainbow1]

He obviously does have a love for the Eucharist, or he wouldn’t have posted here. That is a very good starting point, in my opinion.

 

[styrgwillidar]

rainbow1,
You make excellent points. I think he has a tremendous obligation to his spouse and child as well. He has made committments and has obligations to them…

I’m sorry, as Catholic as I am, it is a grave thing to change a fundamental aspect of his marriage. Imposing celibacy unilaterally. To change the condition of his marriage not just for himself, but his wife as well. He is where he is and needs to consider promises made to her and her expectations for their marriage. It is a joint journey now, however it began.

I can’t advocate to him accepting living as a brother and sister when that isn’t what the promises they exchanged meant to both of them. It’s a marriage, that must be a joint decision.

This is where the discussion regarding accepting the authority of the Church is at the heart of his dilemma. He is struggling with Church authority regarding it’s teachings on receiving communion, until he reconciles himself with that there is no argument for putting such a burden on his current marriage. He needs to consider affects on both his wife and child. IMHO.

I think applying for an annulment, ( particularly if there has been additional evidence of somekind relevant to either he or his ex-wife’s ability to enter a valid marrige since applying the first time) is the best course of action open to them.

 

[ricofall]

I still havent had response to where in the bible does it say that a divorced person (or adulterous person for that matter) cant receive Holy Communion.

Post #105 already stated that.

We are trying to give you answers to your questions. And we know you are hurting, but maybe you can come back and read these answer after your pain is gone and you had some more time to heal. Then you can read what we wrote and see if it makes any sense to you.

 

[joanofarc2008]

He obviously does have a love for the Eucharist, or he wouldn’t have posted here. That is a very good starting point, in my opinion.

Yes it is - however, the OP has also argued that he believes his second marriage valid because CofE has a valid priesthood. If he is of that belief than what is it that he finds in our Eucharist that he does not find in theirs since the High Mass of the CofE also believes in a Real Presence. I am not saying this against the Catholic Church or to bolster the CofE I am saying this to challenge the OP on why he is so focused on this decision that he made years ago and why he rejects the advise of how to fix things by attacking the Church that he wishes to join. The two sets of though make no sents together.