Divorce

[Luvtosew]

when you confess a sin, you must have the intention to not commit the sin anymore.

If someone is divorced and remarried (the sin of adultery because marriage is permanent, and one must remain faithful to their spouse UNTIL death) how can they be sorry for a sin that they have no intention in stopping?

The OP is rejecting the Church’s authority. That goes a little bit beyond anything in his first post. Everyone has recommended that he try to appeal his annulment. He is not listening and does not want that advice. Several forum members have also jumped to his defense and are contradicting Church teaching, and saying we’re mean because we won’t budge on what God says about marriage.

Now the OP is arguing about Scripture.

This is what ex-Catholics sometimes do - come here, rant, rave, tear down the Church, etc. Protestants do it to, they just disguise themselves less well. And usually Catholics don’t jump to their defense.

Me- why am I here, because I understand where the man is coming from, and I honestly believe him and don’t think hes a troll. I came to his defense against some righeous people who seemed to want to take pleasure in making him feel even worst than he did.

Now I was married and my husband was serial cheater, and became physically abusive, the last time I saw him he had a gun to my head for several hours. I of course didn’t believe in divorce, a commitment is a commitment right, well thankfully I manged to get away and still be alive. So yep have an idea what he is going through.

Also now I am civily married to a good man for the last 26 years. Am I allowed to receive the host, no, I do so spiritually and that is just fine with me. See I’m fine.

But now we have a man that wants to receive the physical host with his new family, and well instead of helping this guy and giving him encouragement some people want to throw accusations at him, and for why, to make him feel even worst than he does. That is real helpful and real Christian like , let me say ,since I"ve been on this message board I have seen the same people over and over again put people down, time and time again, These people are so condescending and arrogant its like they take great pleasure in it.

So I do feel some of you owe an appology to this man.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

And I am going to ask you again, SHOW ME those posts and those posters!

You are not responding to what has actually been posted here, but out of your own emotion and defensiveness. No one, and I mean NO ONE has tried to make the OP feel worse, as you say. All that has ever been stated is the TRUTH, in charity. We cannot change his situation, you do admit that, right? Do you believe that the Church is right to uphold marriage? Or do you think that the Church should make exceptions to what God told us to do?

Please go back and re-read the posts. You and Rascal jumped in to agree with the OP before anyone could even present him with a truthful response, but after that, we were not going to let him post lies about the Church or about his situation.

I am sorry that you went through that horrible experience. I really am.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Me- why am I here, because I understand where the man is coming from, and I honestly believe him and don’t think hes a troll. I came to his defense against some righeous people who seemed to want to take pleasure in making him feel even worst than he did.

Now I was married and my husband was serial cheater, and became physically abusive, the last time I saw him he had a gun to my head for several hours. I of course didn’t believe in divorce, a commitment is a commitment right, well thankfully I manged to get away and still be alive. So yep have an idea what he is going through.

Also now I am civily married to a good man for the last 26 years. Am I allowed to receive the host, no, I do so spiritually and that is just fine with me. See I’m fine.

But now we have a man that wants to receive the physical host with his new family, and well instead of helping this guy and giving him encouragement some people want to throw accusations at him, and for why, to make him feel even worst than he does. That is real helpful and real Christian like , let me say ,since I"ve been on this message board I have seen the same people over and over again put people down, time and time again, These people are so condescending and arrogant its like they take great pleasure in it.

So I do feel some of you owe an appology to this man.

I am curious - why didn’t you apply for a decree of nullity? There is nothing that says you only need to take communion spiritually?

And for the record I am not hurling accusations I am challenging to look at his own motivations, decide what is important to him. Sometimes we have to make a choice between being right and being happy and we cannot have both.

 

[mamaslo]

rainbow1,
I’m sorry, as Catholic as I am, it is a grave thing to change a fundamental aspect of his marriage. Imposing celibacy unilaterally. To change the condition of his marriage not just for himself, but his wife as well. He is where he is and needs to consider promises made to her and her expectations for their marriage. It is a joint journey now, however it began.

I can’t advocate to him accepting living as a brother and sister when that isn’t what the promises they exchanged meant to both of them. It’s a marriage, that must be a joint decision.

As hard as it is to take, it is not really a marriage, if he is Catholic. If it is really bothering him that the Church said “NO!” then he needs to find out how to make that right. So he can have a marriage to this woman.

The thing you are seeing is that it is painful to make it right. The problem, is that there is not really any ministry for folks in his situation, who desire to make this right, and have a painful walk ahead. That is what I have found. The only book I have found was “What God has Not Joined Together” it is out of print and was from the 1960s

There are many who believe as you do, that it is a joint thing, but really there are no rights other than to love your neighbor. To treat each other with kindness. To work on the friendship.

If he loves this woman, he will try again and figure out what happened. Sometimes people are right but they did not PROVE to the lawyers in the Church what would give them what they need to agree.

 

[Rascalking]

Please go back and re-read the posts. You and Rascal jumped in to agree with the OP before anyone could even present him with a truthful response,

Yes, I did jump into his defense, because I assumed, correctly, it turns out-that he would be treated harshly. It’s a double standard, if the op was a “she” they’d be treated alot kinder. Also, the fact that he was the victim of something beyond his control (infidelity) and is getting punished for it (regardless of how anyone tries to argue it, it’s a punishment if your spouse messes around and you have to pay the price by living in chastity and lonliness forever).

I don’t speak for lovestosew but looking back at what I said, I still think I’m right.

So…yes, darn right I jumped in to “agree” with him.

 

[rainbow1]

rainbow1,
You make excellent points. I think he has a tremendous obligation to his spouse and child as well. He has made committments and has obligations to them…

I’m sorry, as Catholic as I am, it is a grave thing to change a fundamental aspect of his marriage. Imposing celibacy unilaterally. To change the condition of his marriage not just for himself, but his wife as well. He is where he is and needs to consider promises made to her and her expectations for their marriage. It is a joint journey now, however it began.

I can’t advocate to him accepting living as a brother and sister when that isn’t what the promises they exchanged meant to both of them. It’s a marriage, that must be a joint decision.

This is where the discussion regarding accepting the authority of the Church is at the heart of his dilemma. He is struggling with Church authority regarding it’s teachings on receiving communion, until he reconciles himself with that there is no argument for putting such a burden on his current marriage. He needs to consider affects on both his wife and child. IMHO.

I think applying for an annulment, ( particularly if there has been additional evidence of somekind relevant to either he or his ex-wife’s ability to enter a valid marrige since applying the first time) is the best course of action open to them.

Yes, you are so right that the OP needs to take into consideration promises he also made to his new wife. I am not sure the sexuality of their relationship is the real sin here, and continuing their sexual relationship may be important for his new relationship to grow. (I am going to catch comments for this, I am sure). I am thinking that the sin here is that he married a woman (first wife) who was not a wise choice. But understanding he didn’t know that, then even though it is a sin, he is not culpable for it, but of course, he still is suffering the consequences for it.
My heart is aching for him, and I do wish he had tried to get the appeal done before he entered into a new marriage, so that his marriage was within the Church. I am sure he was overwhelmed and exhausted, and probably felt very abandonned. But nonetheless, I am hoping that he will come back to the Church and go to RCIA and learn the reasons for why the Church teaches what she does. This is a lifelong journey. And then he can get the appeal done and have his marriage blessed.
I know alot of people on these forums love the Church so dearly and get so angry when anyone says anything contrary to it. There is a beautiful passion to it that I admire. But also it hurts me to see bullets shot at someone who has left the Church. I love the Church so dearly too, but in a different way. Although I was born a cradle Catholic, I did not have good formation, and I made some dreadful mistakes including leaving our beautiful faith. It took lots of life circumstances, including having a child who had alot of health issues and wondering if she would live or not, to finally get me to the breaking point to call up a priest sobbing and ask for help. And he did help me. And now, as any of you who have read the forums know, I love the Eucharist as if it were attached to my heart, which I think it must be! The reason I am saying this is because I have been gifted (not to my own merit) with an understanding of people who have left the Church and its Truth…and can see beyond their not understanding of the basics. I am sure the OP has sinned horrendously in many spheres as all of us have (or at least as I unfortunately have during times of my life). It is not so much a matter of his sin, he is slowly showing that he is unwinding his life to make it more beautiful. The last step is for him to get his family back into the Church and to once again have that pure joy of receiving the Eucharist. When I came back to the Church , God gave me every imaginable grace humanly possible and I so want that for this gentleman. Alot of you folks here have a whole lot more insight and knowledge about the Church than I do. I sincerely hope you share that with this man in a kind and useable format. We all can learn from each other and grow . I am sure he also has alot that he can teach us about his faith and what has helped him get to where he is. I think right now he is getting defensive, but let’s give him room so we can help him and he can help us. blessings.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes, I did jump into his defense, because I assumed, correctly, it turns out-that he would be treated harshly. It’s a double standard, if the op was a “she” they’d be treated alot kinder. Also, the fact that he was the victim of something beyond his control (infidelity) and is getting punished for it (regardless of how anyone tries to argue it, it’s a punishment if your spouse messes around and you have to pay the price by living in chastity and lonliness forever).

I don’t speak for lovestosew but looking back at what I said, I still think I’m right.

So…yes, darn right I jumped in to “agree” with him.

As I asked Luvtosew, show me the harsh treatment.

 

[Rascalking]

As I asked Luvtosew, show me the harsh treatment.

You can find them without our assistance.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

After 12 years of marriage and my ex-wifes second affair my local priest said that things could not continue, he suggested that I only had one option which was divorce.
Five years past after the divorce and I met what is now my wife. I went down the path of dissolving my marriage, being told that there shouldn’t be a problem and also relieving me of several hundred pounds in the process. The verdict came back that the marriage could not be desoulved, despite my ex-wife being guilty. Because of the outcome I remarried in a Cof E church to my lovely wife, have had a child and my children from my previous marriage live with us.
I was always under the impression that God forgives all, that Jesus said those without sin can cast the first stone, that Matthew said ‘But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery’. So I speak for many in this situation, why can the rules of mortal man overturn what God and others have taught us. This is another case of doctrum fitting the agenda to what is written. You could call it a misinterpretation for no reason.
I cannot receive Holy Communion, I cannot have my marriage blessed in the Catholic church, I am obviously a sinner, I’m obvously the guilty party, the Catholic church doesn’t want me; but I do know in my own heart that I have not done anything wrong, I know that God knows this and forgives me for what I have done. However the Catholic church seems to think that it is higher than God and does not forgive me. In the mean time I take Holy Communion in the local C of E church, I am welcomed there. It’s all so sad what man has done to such a great religion. The mother church needs a rethink before they turn there back on many more people like myself.

OP, what would you like to do now? Some posters think that you want to come back to the Church, and receive the Eucharist, but you don’t state that in your post here.

What actually took place when you say you tried to have your marriage “dissolved?” Is that an annulment process, or something else? If it is an annulment, that can be appealed, you can try again. Many posters have told you so.

Do you even want to return to the Church? Or are you just angry and hurt that you can’t receive the Eucharist in your current condition?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You can find them without our assistance.

But YOU are making the assertion, Rascal.

 

[rainbow1]

And I am going to ask you again, SHOW ME those posts and those posters!

You are not responding to what has actually been posted here, but out of your own emotion and defensiveness. No one, and I mean NO ONE has tried to make the OP feel worse, as you say. All that has ever been stated is the TRUTH, in charity. We cannot change his situation, you do admit that, right? Do you believe that the Church is right to uphold marriage? Or do you think that the Church should make exceptions to what God told us to do?

Please go back and re-read the posts. You and Rascal jumped in to agree with the OP before anyone could even present him with a truthful response, but after that, we were not going to let him post lies about the Church or about his situation.

I am sorry that you went through that horrible experience. I really am.

Oh no, I don’t agree. I think we very well can change his situation . We can invite him to mass. We can offer to pray for him. We can help find him a priest to talk to. We can follow him as he goes to the Tribunal and support his appeal. We can brainstorm. The Church is right to uphold a marriage, but this first marriage very well might not have been a marriage at all. God may not have joined them together at all. And yes, he should seek the appeal to prove that. But in the meantime there is a whole lot we can do to help him. Her response of upset was not due to her own emotion and defensiveness…it is due to her understanding of the situation in a very real and concrete way.
God never said to stay in unhealthy marriages. God is way beyond that…

 

[Rascalking]

But YOU are making the assertion, Rascal.

The “harsh” treatement that I addressed is pretty clear to find, re-read my posts. I’m confident that you’ll be able to find the source. If you don’t, well, I’m sorry.

 

[rainbow1]

The OP is rejecting the Church’s authority. That goes a little bit beyond anything in his first post. Everyone has recommended that he try to appeal his annulment. He is not listening and does not want that advice. Several forum members have also jumped to his defense and are contradicting Church teaching, and saying we’re mean because we won’t budge on what God says about marriage.

Now the OP is arguing about Scripture.

This is what ex-Catholics sometimes do - come here, rant, rave, tear down the Church, etc. Protestants do it to, they just disguise themselves less well. And usually Catholics don’t jump to their defense.

Some ex catholics also come home.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum, you arent seeing my point. The Christian church was founded by the apostles, they went out and taught what Jesus had shown or told them. Each one of them had a different experience and point of view of this teaching ( there are many contradicting examples in the gospels). When these biographies were brought together some were left out, (Thomas, Mary etc). Misinterpretation, mispelling, different point of views are common, unfortuately a mis-spelt word can mean something totally different and can change the context in which it was written.
Canon law can only be taken from that that is the Holy Bible, otherwise it is not true to Christianity, anything else is fabricated to suit the cause and misrule of 2000 years ago.
I still havent had response to where in the bible does it say that a divorced person (or adulterous person for that matter) cant receive Holy Communion.

Wait, ‘thomas’ and ‘mary’ are GNOSTIC gospels. They weren’t ‘left out’. They were never, never, NEVER part of authentic and inspired Scripture to begin with. How can you leave out something which was NEVER THERE in the FIRST place???

Where did you get the idea that the canon of the bible is incomplete, corrupt, etc? If you’re asking 'where is it’in the Bible", aren’t you accepting it’s all ‘right’, even though the canon came together from the CHURCH in AD 384???

The Bible itself says that it does not contain everything that Christ ever said or did. So if the Bible is truth, but not complete, (because the Holy Spirit is going to LEAD US TO TRUTH --and that’s in the Bible), then there must be something else. The Bible is NOT the authority --the CHURCH is the authority. The Bible is a tool of the Church; the Church is not a tool of the Bible.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You can find them without our assistance.

That’s just it, Rascal. . .we can’t. We honestly can’t. I truly cannot find ANYTHING that I, or Ike, or PR, or Julianne, said that was hateful, hurtful, attacking, etc of the OP. WHERE are the so-called ‘hateful’ and ‘mean’ posts?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Me- why am I here, because I understand where the man is coming from, and I honestly believe him and don’t think hes a troll. I came to his defense against some righeous people who seemed to want to take pleasure in making him feel even worst than he did.

Now I was married and my husband was serial cheater, and became physically abusive, the last time I saw him he had a gun to my head for several hours. I of course didn’t believe in divorce, a commitment is a commitment right, well thankfully I manged to get away and still be alive. So yep have an idea what he is going through.

Also now I am civily married to a good man for the last 26 years. Am I allowed to receive the host, no, I do so spiritually and that is just fine with me. See I’m fine.

But now we have a man that wants to receive the physical host with his new family, and well instead of helping this guy and giving him encouragement some people want to throw accusations at him, and for why, to make him feel even worst than he does. That is real helpful and real Christian like , let me say ,since I"ve been on this message board I have seen the same people over and over again put people down, time and time again, These people are so condescending and arrogant its like they take great pleasure in it.

So I do feel some of you owe an appology to this man.

I am very sorry for your situation and I can understand why you would feel a natural empathy toward others, but I disagree with your judgment.

So what’s going to happen? The thread will probably get closed and that’s a shame, because there is a lot of good information coming out that is helpful to the OP (or will be). And you know, I’m not excluding you and your posts even though I disagree with some of your statements, because I know that you honestly believe what you’re saying and I can respect that. We might disagree but we are BOTH trying to help another human being. . .and isn’t that what we should be doing in Christ?

 

[Rascalking]

That’s just it, Rascal. . .we can’t. We honestly can’t. I truly cannot find ANYTHING that I, or Ike, or PR, or Julianne, said that was hateful, hurtful, attacking, etc of the OP. WHERE are the so-called ‘hateful’ and ‘mean’ posts?

Ok, maybe we have a different defintion of mean/harsh/hateful/rude/tart/blunt/uncompassionate/nasty/etc

Everything is out there on this thread. I’m sure people can read it for themself and take it how they want. I feel as though pointing out certian posts that crossed the line would accomplish nothing but continue us in pointing fingers.

 

[Rascalking]

I
So what’s going to happen? The thread will probably get closed and that’s a shame, because there is a lot of good information coming out that is helpful to the OP (or will be). And you know, I’m not excluding you and your posts even though I disagree with some of your statements, because I know that you honestly believe what you’re saying and I can respect that. We might disagree but we are BOTH trying to help another human being. . .and isn’t that what we should be doing in Christ?

Now THIS post I can totally agree with. Awesome “end” to the argument Tantum.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh no, I don’t agree. I think we very well can change his situation . We can invite him to mass. We can offer to pray for him. We can help find him a priest to talk to. We can follow him as he goes to the Tribunal and support his appeal. We can brainstorm. The Church is right to uphold a marriage, but this first marriage very well might not have been a marriage at all. God may not have joined them together at all. And yes, he should seek the appeal to prove that. But in the meantime there is a whole lot we can do to help him. Her response of upset was not due to her own emotion and defensiveness…it is due to her understanding of the situation in a very real and concrete way.
God never said to stay in unhealthy marriages. God is way beyond that…

But nobody was saying anything about having to stay in an unhealthy marriage. And everybody WAS offering to pray for him, urging him to see a priest, urging him to try for a decree again, etc. What MORE could we do that was authentic Christian teaching? We simply could not lie and tell him that the Church’s teaching on marriage was wrong.

 

[rainbow1]

Now THIS post I can totally agree with. Awesome “end” to the argument Tantum.

I agree it would be a shame to have the post closed. I think there are a whole lot of people who are suffering the same way as the OP and want to have resolution in their lives…