Divorce

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

If, on the other hand, the Catholics didn’t attempt to follow the correct form (e.g., they just went to the JP), then the situation is known as a “lack of form”. As I mentioned, this cannot be convalidated, and it’s not known as an “invalid marriage”.

I don’t believe this is correct, Gorgias.

Not to be argumentative, but yes, there is a distinction here. The “Catholics at a JP” situation creates what’s known as a “non-existent marriage”. Since the marriage never took place, then it cannot be convalidated.

Catholics are required to follow valid form when attempting marriage. The distinction is between a couple who attempt valid form (but fail to do so successfully) and a couple who do not attempt it. There’s a “fix” (per se) for the former, while the latter have to actually begin the process of attempting valid form.

Gorgias:

If, on the other hand, the Catholics didn’t attempt to follow the correct form (e.g., they just went to the JP), then the situation is known as a “lack of form”. As I mentioned, this cannot be convalidated, and it’s not known as an “invalid marriage”. In order to correct this situation, they would need to go to their parish and go through the whole process, making sure that they have no impediments to marriage, that they follow the form, and they exchange consent during a wedding ceremony.

What would be the process for an “invalid” marriage, as you define it, to become convalidated?

It would be the same “whole process”, as the one you describe for a situation that has the “lack of form”, no? That is, it would still be required that they show they have no impediments to marriage, that they follow the form, and that they exchange consent during a wedding ceremony.

One huge difference would be in the effects – an invalid marriage that’s convalidated becomes sacramental back to the time of the original marriage ceremony (not the time of the later convalidation); a non-existent marriage that’s later followed by a valid marriage becomes sacramental at the time of the marriage in Church, not the original attempt at marriage (in this example, at the JP).

Another is likely in the realm of marriage prep, which (presumably) had been completed by the couple who (presumably unintentionally) contracted marriage invalidly; the Catholic couple who didn’t attempt valid form has to take all the necessary steps in preparation.

 

[PRmerger]

Not to be argumentative, but yes, there is a distinction here. The “Catholics at a JP” situation creates what’s known as a “non-existent marriage”. Since the marriage never took place, then it cannot be convalidated.

Catholics are required to follow valid form when attempting marriage. The distinction is between a couple who attempt valid form (but fail to do so successfully) and a couple who do not attempt it. There’s a “fix” (per se) for the former, while the latter have to actually begin the process of attempting valid form.

One huge difference would be in the effects – an invalid marriage that’s convalidated becomes sacramental back to the time of the original marriage ceremony (not the time of the later convalidation); a non-existent marriage that’s later followed by a valid marriage becomes sacramental at the time of the marriage in Church, not the original attempt at marriage (in this example, at the JP).

Another is likely in the realm of marriage prep, which (presumably) had been completed by the couple who (presumably unintentionally) contracted marriage invalidly; the Catholic couple who didn’t attempt valid form has to take all the necessary steps in preparation.

Very good then. I stand corrected!

 

[Luvtosew]

Well I was told by a Priest that a civil union is like a non marriage, and the same as just living together. No marriage.

another quest.

A Catholic man marries a Methodist in her church but did not turn Methodist,
and becomes divorced after 6 years , does he need an annullment?

also if the wife of that Catholic man above divorced him , does that make a difference.

I am wondering what happens to the person if they are divorced and he is not the one doing the divorcing, does the tribunal take that into consideration?

Thanks, you know I have read up on this stuff and am still confused.

 

[PRmerger]

Well I was told by a Priest that a civil union is like a non marriage, and the same as just living together. No marriage/

Maybe the 2 of you were on different pages–in your mind you were thinking of any married couple, and his mind he was only talking about Catholic couples who marry civilly.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I’ve only managed to make it through 165 posts

Just wanted to poke my head in and say how grateful I am for posters who are straight-shooters about what the Church teaches.

I am in the “annulment process” and am having to come to terms with the very real possibility that by willful deception, my ex may be able to compromise the process and my petition may be denied. I am coming to the end of my reproductive years, so I am looking at not only being celibate for the rest of my life, but even if that doesn’t happen, ex may stretch this process out so long that even if the Rota itself declares nullity, I may no longer be fertile by that time.

There is much to be bitter about. But strong posters here remind me often that heroic virtue is a good thing, even though it often feels awful. Suffering has redemptive value. I am never really alone, of course, but so many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching and think I am making a martyr of myself by not going out and dating and bringing home a stepfather for my children. That’s not the kind of “support” or empathy I need–it may feel nice and sympathetic, but it isn’t good for my soul. The truth is hard, but it is worth it in the long run.

 

[Luvtosew]

Maybe the 2 of you were on different pages–in your mind you were thinking of any married couple, and his mind he was only talking about Catholic couples who marry civilly.

yes could be.

Can you answer my other questions in that one post? Thanks.

 

[EvelynEVF]

There, now I’ve read all 300+ posts

“A Catholic man marries a Methodist in her church but did not turn Methodist,
and becomes divorced after 6 years , does he need an annullment?”

Nobody needs an annulment, unless they want to remarry. The marriage to a Methodist would have to be looked at by a Tribunal, but if the Catholic did not marry with a dispensation, it’s not the right form and would be null, with a very straightforward process. If there was a dispensation, then they have to go through the longer process.

*"also if the wife of that Catholic man above divorced him , does that make a difference.

I am wondering what happens to the person if they are divorced and he is not the one doing the divorcing, does the tribunal take that into consideration?"*

I’m sure the Tribunal takes it into account as part of the context, but the real grounds must be what was going on at the time of the wedding. Later circumstances can shed light on that, but a person who is the victim of unwanted divorce doesn’t get official sympathy points toward the decree. I kind of wish the tribunal would punish the offending spouse, but it doesn’t work that way.

Oh, and since I’m new to the thread, I’ll clarify that I’m not a canon lawyer either, but I am hip deep in the process and ask a lot of questions until I get answers. I won’t say anything here that I’m not confident is faithful to Church teaching, but if I’m mistaken I’m glad to be corrected!

 

[Luvtosew]

EvelynEVF,
Glad you made it through the posts, a lot of reading thats for sure. I admire your strength for waiting on your annullment, and I hope you get resolve soon.

can you tell me what dispensation means. Do you mean did the man get approval from the CC to get married in a Methodist Church? no he did not.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Yes, that’s what I mean: permission from the bishop to get around the rule. It’s sad to me that a Catholic who breaks that rule gets what looks like a quickie annulment. Protestants who follow their own church’s rules on divorce and remarriage, and then try to convert, are stuck being brother and sister, and sometimes are permanently stuck. Those are the folks I really feel awful for. I’m glad I converted first and knew not to date. I may be lonely, but I do not suffer the pain of living with someone I couldn’t love fully.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve only managed to make it through 165 posts

Just wanted to poke my head in and say how grateful I am for posters who are straight-shooters about what the Church teaches.

I am in the “annulment process” and am having to come to terms with the very real possibility that by willful deception, my ex may be able to compromise the process and my petition may be denied. I am coming to the end of my reproductive years, so I am looking at not only being celibate for the rest of my life, but even if that doesn’t happen, ex may stretch this process out so long that even if the Rota itself declares nullity, I may no longer be fertile by that time.

There is much to be bitter about. But strong posters here remind me often that heroic virtue is a good thing, even though it often feels awful. Suffering has redemptive value. I am never really alone, of course, but so many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching and think I am making a martyr of myself by not going out and dating and bringing home a stepfather for my children. That’s not the kind of “support” or empathy I need–it may feel nice and sympathetic, but it isn’t good for my soul. The truth is hard, but it is worth it in the long run.

God bless you on your journey, Evelyn!

Yes, it’s never a charity to confirm someone in his/her sin. It may *appear *to be the kind thing to do–to say, “I know the Church says it’s wrong, but I really don’t see how it is”, but, in the end, if one follows the teachings of Christ one is going to have to deny herself and carry her cross. There is no other way.

But in all Good Fridays you can be assured that it will be followed by an Easter Sunday.

 

[PRmerger]

A Catholic man marries a Methodist in her church but did not turn Methodist,
and becomes divorced after 6 years , does he need an annullment?

No one “needs” an annulment.

If this Catholic man wishes to marry again, then he has to be free to marry. IOW, he cannot be already married.

Soooo, if this divorced man wishes to marry “again”, then he does indeed need to seek a declaration of nullity (that is, an annulment.)

also if the wife of that Catholic man above divorced him , does that make a difference.

It does not make a difference as to whether he had a valid marriage or not.

I am wondering what happens to the person if they are divorced and he is not the one doing the divorcing, does the tribunal take that into consideration?

I am certain that the more information the Tribunal has the better their discernment process will be.
]

 

[mamaslo]

Hi Mamaslo…I just wanted you to know I have had you on my mind nonstop and have been praying for you…I also have a messed up disc, and I am offering up the pain for you and your situation…I am feeling so sad for both you and your husband…especially thinking of you sleeping on the couch with a bad back yourself…is there any hope that you guys could be in the same room if you both agree to certain boundaries? This might sound sort of silly, but would it be possible for you guys to pretend you are a really, really elderly couple who just have certain limitations and yet maybe still enjoy the cuddling/back rubs/ etc. that would not be offensive to either of you? I am just thinking that if your ex (and I am sure you are too) is missing the groundingness of physical touch that maybe you could still do certain things…foot massages, hand massages…etc. that would help provide a physical connection to help your friendship and affection for each other keep growing during this difficult time. And I so think it would help the kids to see you hugging and all. You could pretend you are dating even and maybe add some humor back into the relationship. Maybe it could become almost a kind of competition to see which of you can come up with the most ways to reconnect (on a nonsexual level to respect your wishes) and whoever gets the most ways or demonstrates it the most each week gets some reward…you know, turn it into a game. I don’t know what-all you have tried, but am just thinking that despite how any of this turns out, the two of you are so darn lucky to have someone there for each other and to be able to go through the daily living stuff together. I am so hoping that you guys find a way to keep cherishing the goodness you do have and always will have.

Thanks for the thoughts but nope. Please don’t make anymore suggestions like this one.

 

[Gorgias]

I am in the “annulment process” and am having to come to terms with the very real possibility that by willful deception, my ex may be able to compromise the process and my petition may be denied.

Ouch … this really burns me! What do people think that they have to gain by trying to game the system? Gahhh!

so many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching and think I am making a martyr of myself by not going out and dating and bringing home a stepfather for my children. That’s not the kind of “support” or empathy I need–it may feel nice and sympathetic, but it isn’t good for my soul. The truth is hard, but it is worth it in the long run.

Thanks for making that strong stand for the truth of marriage – I hope your kids notice your witness, and it helps them in their formation, so that they grow up knowing how much the Catholic Church (and Catholics) respect marriage…!

 

[EvelynEVF]

Thank you for your very kind words.

Alas, their dad, who is not even Catholic, insists on mentioning to them every once in a while that according to the Church, we are still married. So they can’t figure out why a good Catholic like me, who is married according to the Church, would have divorced her husband. And I can’t tell them.

It will be quite some time before they are old enough to understand the abuse that went on.

I console myself, perhaps not entirely virtuously, with the thought that God knows all and when xh dies he’s going to be called to account for every last bit of it.

 

[PRmerger]

and when xh dies he’s going to be called to account for every last bit of it.

Indeed.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thank you for your very kind words.

Alas, their dad, who is not even Catholic, insists on mentioning to them every once in a while that according to the Church, we are still married. So they can’t figure out why a good Catholic like me, who is married according to the Church, would have divorced her husband. And I can’t tell them.

It will be quite some time before they are old enough to understand the abuse that went on.

I console myself, perhaps not entirely virtuously, with the thought that God knows all and when xh dies he’s going to be called to account for every last bit of it.

I wouldn’t tell them but I would just say that there are certain things that the CCC mentions as appropriate causes for divorce. You are in good standing with the Church and your Fraternity. Past that they need to enjoy their childhood. If they really want to know they will look it up. If they don’t then the Brickwall ought to silence them.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Yes. When pressed, I remind them that our previous pastor, current pastor, and deacon are all well aware of the situation. And then I stonewall. I’m getting pretty good at it.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes. When pressed, I remind them that our previous pastor, current pastor, and deacon are all well aware of the situation. And then I stonewall. I’m getting pretty good at it.

Thats rough. I am so sorry.

 

[Melissa]

EvelynEVF:

I am in the “annulment process” and am having to come to terms with the very real possibility that by willful deception, my ex may be able to compromise the process and my petition may be denied.

Ouch … this really burns me! What do people think that they have to gain by trying to game the system? Gahhh!

For an abuser, “gaming the system” or lying or otherwise dragging things out merely because it is possible to make a painful process last longer is all a way to continue the abuse.

I believe that until the very end, my husband truly thought that he could prevent me from moving on (with the children). He did succeed in causing me to rack up a substantially higher attorney fee–all to gain less than what I offered in the initial ‘opt out’ agreement (he lost the vehicle I was willing to give up by having it impounded when he was last arrested–I still gained full custody, the right to relocate with the children, and he has only supervised visitation [when he gets out–and yes, that means he is currently incarcerated; he is now a convicted felon because of the offense he committed against me]).

so many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching and think I am making a martyr of myself by not going out and dating and bringing home a stepfather for my children. That’s not the kind of “support” or empathy I need–it may feel nice and sympathetic, but it isn’t good for my soul. The truth is hard, but it is worth it in the long run.

Personally, I am not seeking an annulment (not that I think anyone is wrong to do so). This is probably the most radical, counter-cultural thing as people know I am Catholic, know I am civilly divorced, and also know that I tell them that I am not available for dating (especially by people of evangelical stripe who say “but he cheated on you, why can’t you be free to marry again?”). I do, of course, think that anyone who might want to date should get through the annulment process so that he’d know whether he is truly free to date or not before getting into some heart-wrenching situation in which either hearts will be broken or souls endangered.

And yes, though I was the one to file for divorce, I was the “innocent party”–my husband is an adulterer (and although he did skate on the charges, I do believe he is a rapist as well–he just picked his victim well) and an abuser. The civil divorce and the criminal charges were the steps I needed to take to protect myself (and my financial well-being) and my children.

Our goal is to be happy with God in Heaven; happiness is not an end to seek in this temporary existence (although it may come–or not). That said, life is too short to spend feeling sorry for oneself about things that one does not (and perhaps cannot) have. Likewise, being in a romantic couple is not the only way to avoid loneliness.

 

[joanofarc2008]

You sound well today Melissa. Glad to hear. Things are progressing for me as well. There is an update posted in the usual place. My attorney’s fees went from 1200 to 8800 because my xh got those last abusive shots in and we had no children. I can only imagine. God bless.