Divorce

[joanofarc2008]

I was wondering if the allow someone that is in the process of divorce to teach. That is good to know. I teach 8th grade CCD and would hate to stop. I love the kids. Of course, I would discuss it with the religious education director.

It would be the pastors decision ultimately. Before you made any decisions regarding your marriage this is the person you should be discussing it with. He will be able to answer all these other questions regarding public ministry and such from there.

 

[Luvtosew]

Hi, Luv,

Just wondering if you could address the 2 posts above, specifically with regard to my question as to how you may know anything about Jesus and God, except through His revelation, as revealed to you through the Catholic Church.

(NB: Of course, we can use reason alone to determine that God exists–Aquinas et al argued that quite eloquently. But as to any other qualities about God–that He is love, that He forgives our sins, that He is our sole judge, that He is a Trinity, well, are you claiming that you know this through some other source?)

The CC had taught the basics, we had knowledge of God, and of course my parents were
Catholic. We were taught the sacraments, the trinity, the prayers, how to go to confession, not much about Mary except she is the Immaculate Virgin, touched on the Rosary, all mainly the sacraments. My parents made us say prayers of course, and follow the commandments. Oh Holy Communion, never told it was the flesh, but that it was the Real Presence, Body,Blood,Soul, and Divinity of Christ, it was a miracle didn’t need to know how it happened.

So yes, the basics, by the time I graduated did I have a personal relationship with the Lord of my life, no, not at all, but I knew the prayer and the sacrements and what to do at Mass.and I sure knew what helll was. Glad my brother gave me a Bible in the 80’s, because before that never thought about reading the Bible , why, told it was not necessary for us to read.

Oh and it wasn’t till later in life looking back on it I realized I didn’t really know Jesus or much at all, I had thought I did, but I didn’t, just knew what we were taught by the Church, the sacraments for salvation.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I was wondering if the allow someone that is in the process of divorce to teach. That is good to know. I teach 8th grade CCD and would hate to stop. I love the kids. Of course, I would discuss it with the religious education director.

I gave them a heads up about the situation and they were very understanding. Their position was that as long as I adhered to the Church’s teaching on not becoming involved with anyone else prior to being granted an annulment they were comfortable with me continuing to teach. Understandably, they did not want me as an authority figure to set a poor example to the kids if I was not going to abide by Church doctrine.

 

[cviolette]

It would be the pastors decision ultimately. Before you made any decisions regarding your marriage this is the person you should be discussing it with. He will be able to answer all these other questions regarding public ministry and such from there.

Thank you. I plan on meeting with my priest before filingl for divorce. I am not yet ready to file yet I need to sign up for marriage counseling first. My husband and I need to learn how To communicate for the sake of the kids.

 

[cviolette]

I gave them a heads up about the situation and they were very understanding. Their position was that as long as I adhered to the Church’s teaching on not becoming involved with anyone else prior to being granted an annulment they were comfortable with me continuing to teach. Understandably, they did not want me as an authority figure to set a poor example to the kids if I was not going to abide by Church doctrine.

That makes sense. I do not plan on dating unless I get an annulment. Which also gives the children time to adjust to the situation without adding in a third party.

 

[styrgwillidar]

That makes sense. I do not plan on dating unless I get an annulment. Which also gives the children time to adjust to the situation without adding in a third party.

Seeing the deterioration of my ex-wife’s (in the legal sense) relationship with her kids I heartily endorse that course of action. Even if you were to reject the Church tomorrow, kids are extremely likely if they aren’t infants to have a problem adjusting to a third party in the short term.

 

[cviolette]

Seeing the deterioration of my ex-wife’s (in the legal sense) relationship with her kids I heartily endorse that course of action. Even if you were to reject the Church tomorrow, kids are extremely likely if they aren’t infants to have a problem adjusting to a third party in the short term.

My kids are teenagers. They are not close to their father but I am sure they would struggle with another man in my life. By the time the divorce happens, two will be in college. The two younger children are very close to me and will need my focus. They will be gone before I know it, I can certainly hold off on dating. Not that I won’t go out with friends.

Plus it will be hard enough to get my husband to stop controlling me. I don’t need to fuel his anger with dating.

 

[PRmerger]

The CC had taught the basics, we had knowledge of God, and of course my parents were
Catholic. We were taught the sacraments, the trinity, the prayers, how to go to confession, not much about Mary except she is the Immaculate Virgin, touched on the Rosary, all mainly the sacraments. My parents made us say prayers of course, and follow the commandments. Oh Holy Communion, never told it was the flesh, but that it was the Real Presence, Body,Blood,Soul, and Divinity of Christ, it was a miracle didn’t need to know how it happened.

So yes, the basics, by the time I graduated did I have a personal relationship with the Lord of my life, no, not at all, but I knew the prayer and the sacrements and what to do at Mass.and I sure knew what helll was. Glad my brother gave me a Bible in the 80’s, because before that never thought about reading the Bible , why, told it was not necessary for us to read.

Oh and it wasn’t till later in life looking back on it I realized I didn’t really know Jesus or much at all, I had thought I did, but I didn’t, just knew what we were taught by the Church, the sacraments for salvation.

I appreciate your sharing what you learned in your childhood catechesis.

But that wasn’t my question.

I’m wondering if you believe there’s some OTHER way you know what God has revealed, except through the Catholic Church???

 

[Luvtosew]

I think I told you my parents, and I think were all born with a knowledge of a higher being.

Do you think my life is indebted to the CC somehow,

do you think if I had not been born a CAtholic I would not be a Christian, I don’t think so.

How did you become a Catholic, and when?

 

[PRmerger]

I think I told you my parents,

Right. And the ONLY way they knew about God is because the Church (through their parents) proclaimed this Truth to them.

and I think were all born with a knowledge of a higher being.

Right. But there’s NO WAY you could know that there is One God and 3 persons, except through the Church.

There’s NO WAY you could know that your sins are forgiven, except through the Church.

Do you think my life is indebted to the CC somehow,

Well, your knowledge of God and Jesus comes ONLY from the Catholic Church, so if you’re going to have some integrity, then, you ought to be profuse in your thanks to the Catholic Church for providing you with this knowledge.

do you think if I had not been born a CAtholic I would not be a Christian, I don’t think so.

If you’re another form of Christianity you still have the Catholic Church to thank for preserving the Truth for your other Christian denominations.

Thus, a Lutheran will ONLY know that the Eucharist is Christ’s Body because the CC proclaimed this.

And a Baptist will ONLY know that Jesus was born of a virgin because the CC proclaimed this.

And a Seventh Day Adventist will ONLY know that Jesus is God incarnate because the CC proclaimed this.

There is NO OTHER WAY they can know this except that the Church preserved these teachings, from the apostles, and gave it to them.

How did you become a Catholic, and when?

Asked and answered, your honor.

 

[rainbow1]

The Church is very cautious about mixed marriages. I’m not sure I understand what stereotype you’re talking about. That mixed marriages are difficult? I believe that one is true. That non-Catholics will pull a Catholic away from his ir her faith? Well, we see that happen a lot, when the Catholic isn’t deeply committed to begin with. If these are the stereotypes you’re talking about, then I guess they are stereotypes for a reason, and that’s why Catholics are required to be in conversation with a priest for permission or dispensation.

It is very, very hard for me to believe that a marriage between a devout Catholic and a devout Muslim can work. The Muslim, if s/he really believes what that religion teaches, believes that the Catholic is an infidel and a heretic of the highest order. The Catholic may well believe that the Muslim is on a path to God, but that path is far from ideal. Interiorly, that’s got to be painful.

We are not required to convert the people we love, but certainly we must wish it with all our hearts.

More judgement…this time about my friend who you don’t even know. Hmmmm…this is getting boring…

 

[FCGeorge]

Bryan,

Part of the difficulty here is that the circumstances of any given divorce are rarely public. Whether a person ought to be receiving the Eucharist is between him/her and a confessor or spiritual director.

You can write all you want about divorce being a Bad Thing, and I doubt anyone would disagree with you, but once we even start thinking about specific instances, that all comes to a screeching halt. Even in one couple there are two perspectives.

There may be a large problem, but there is no large solution. We can’t make it a default that divorced people be barred from Communion. We can hope and pray that people in difficult marriages will get good counsel from faithful priests and others, but I think that’s as far as it can go.

Hello Evelyn,

I pray you see that I didn’t say that we should “make it a default that divorced people be barred from Communion.” There are times when one would not be committing a “grave offense” by civilly divorcing. There are also times when an innocent spouse is abandoned and a civil divorce is forced upon them.

But the way divorce is talked about now leads every civilly divorced person to believe that they have committed no grave sin and are thereby able to partake of Holy Communion.

This is just as false as saying that “all divorced people should not partake of Holy Communion.”

Evelyn, when is it ever okay to claim that I am no longer the husband of the wife to whom God joined me in a valid marriage where we both have been baptized?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

There is a difference between grave offense and mortal sin. Grave offense is one of the three conditions for mortal sin. The two words are not interchangeable in the way you have been reading them. The way one must examine conscience and decide if a sin is mortal in this case is between them, God, and their Confessor and has nothing to do with any other member of the parish. Either way it is a sin that can be confessed and the person can receive.

Now there are some things that are objective such as divorce with remarriage without decree of nullity that will keep one from receiving the Eucharist.

Hello Joanofarc,

I definitely understand the three conditions for mortal sin. Just taught that to my fifth grade CCD class…
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

We’ll get to that in a bit but maybe we can focus on this first…

Either way it is a sin that can be confessed and the person can receive.

Yes, it is not the unforgiveable sin. The question is, “What does true repentance look like?”

Let’s take the case of John and Carol.

Let’s say that John and Carol are two baptized Christians who when they were married did indeed intend to be faithful to each other for life and be open to children. They believed the vows they spoke on their wedding day.

Four years later Carol is in a terrible car accident. John decides he does not want to be tied down to this woman who is now in a wheelchair. She was once a swimsuit model but now she is not. John abandons Carol and files for a civil divorce. Carol was not the perfect wife. She often burned the toast and didn’t always love John perfectly as Christ loves the Church. She occasionally fell short of that. But John was in no danger in continuing to live with Carol.

Let’s say that Carol is remaining faithful to John after he civilly divorced her. If John one day actually does talk to a faithful priest who recognizes that John never had one of the exceptional morally licit reasons for separating and filing for civil divorce. A priest that recognizes that John abandoning Carol is indeed a “grave offense” What will John do if he is really, truly sorry for abandoning Carol?

Are you saying that John can commit this grave offense and “confess” the sin with no willingness to right the wrong and then be able to receive Holy Communion?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[rainbow1]

Let me give you some background of me.
I am a second generation Mexican. My mom is from Mexico as is my dad. They are divorced. They are both Catholic, but they were not married in the Church. People find interesting that they are actually good friends. In fact, we all live close to each other now.

Mexicans are very religious, however the country is secular (supposedly). The secularism has to do with the Cristo war if I remember correctly.

Anyways, marriage through the Church is mainly considered till death. Are they those who get divorced? Yes they are. I have people in my family whose husband walked away 20 years ago. I do not have all details but I do know she is still single.

Religion is rooted deep. To many people, it is not a choice, it is a way of life. If the Church says you are in the wrong, then you are. You need to get in the right. You can walk away from the Church if you want, and some do just like here. If anything, it is the same but you see more respect for the Church if you are a member. If you notice, not even the drug cartels cross the church during the drug wars (usually). However, that may change is the Church starts to take sides.

Annulments do happen just like here. Divorcing does still carry some stigma, but it is going away slowly. I hope this answers your questions and feel free to ask me again. I do not want to go off topic too much.

Ricofall,
Thank you for the wonderful description of your heritage and how Mexicans experience divorce. I was so interested in how you said that your parents , although divorced, are quite friendly. I am hearing alot of stories from people saying that divorced couples go to mass together, vacations together, etc. and find that interesting in that I haven’t seen alot of that in the South.
What does the Church in Mexico do to keep their faithful so close?
Blessings…

 

[rainbow1]

Hello Joanofarc,

I definitely understand the three conditions for mortal sin. Just taught that to my fifth grade CCD class…
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

We’ll get to that in a bit but maybe we can focus on this first…

Yes, it is not the unforgiveable sin. The question is, “What does true repentance look like?”

Let’s take the case of John and Carol.

Let’s say that Carol is remaining faithful to John after he civilly divorced her. If John one day actually does talk to a faithful priest who recognizes that John never had one of the exceptional morally licit reasons for separating and filing for civil divorce. A priest that recognizes that John abandoning Carol is indeed a “grave offense” What will John do if he is really, truly sorry for abandoning Carol?

Are you saying that John can commit this grave offense and “confess” the sin with no willingness to right the wrong and then be able to receive Holy Communion?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Bryan, I do think that scenarios happen like this…and in fact, I sort of am suspicious that both partners in alot of divorced marriages do reflect on their individual roles in the marriage having fallen apart. I believe it usually happens over time…and in many, or maybe most cases, over years. I don’t think that it usually results in reuniting, but sometimes it does. I have a girlfriend who was divorced and then remarried her original spouse. I don’t know any statistics on it, but I think it must be low. I think the growth of both partners takes time, and it is with that time that things can be put back into better perspective. Things seem so out of perpective during the actual divorce process. That is why so many priests will ask for a waiting period before couples can start the annulment process. I don’t think that this new “understanding” happens like turning on or off a switch. Even if a priest tried to make a determination like this, I bet alot of newly divorced people could not grasp what he said. 4 1/2 years after my husband has left, and I am still reviewing everything in my head trying to make sense of his role and my role in the divorce. It isn’t something so black and white…even in cases of adultery, I am not so sure that labels as the “bad spouse” or " good spouse" are particularly helpful, because so often the marriage “process” is what went wrong…how both of the spouses interacted together…For example,… how did the couple work together during stress? …did one spouse tend to distance and isolate while the other pursued? …and just to clarify, I am surely not condoning poor behavior choices…I am just saying oftentimes there are two spouses who need to do a whole lot of self review … and when I went to confession before and during the divorce process, my experience with the priests is that they all were very, very understanding that marriage problems are complicated and did not jump to rash conclusions about one or the other…which ultimately left me in a huge place of peace…My take on life in general is that it isn’t so much about being “right” or “wrong” as it is of being of “good will” or being “loving” and “forgiving”. Patience, kindness and love covers a multitude of sins. I so know you and I agree on the forgiving topic …

 

[FCGeorge]

Even in cases where the divorce is sinful, I am not at all convinced that repentant reconciliation necessarily involves putting the marriage back together.

Hello Evelyn,

I think we kind of agree here. I am not saying that reconciliation is always possible. If my wife hard-heartedly abandons and divorces me and then “comes to her senses” and truly repents then she would seek reconciliation with me in humility. She would recognize that she doesn’t “deserve” my forgiveness any more than she “deserves” God’s forgiveness.

I may choose to not imitate God’s forgiveness and choose not be open to reconciliation upon her true repentance. In this case, reconciliation is not possible for her. It is not possible because of my hard-heartedness… at the present time. Should she put a time limit on me? Does God put a time limit on us?

Do her vows she made to me become null and void?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello PRmerger,

Thanks for clearly answering those questions. It helps me understand where you are coming from.

Quote:

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that it is sin but John can simply confess the sin and have the blood of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ wipe it away even though John has a heart that is not willing to right the wrong?

It appears that you are under the misapprehension that forgiveness in conferred in the Sacrament of Reconciliation if someone is not penitent.

Please see that this is exactly what I pray we can shine a light on. There seems to be an idea that John can commit the grave sin of abandoning Carol. He can then simply go to confession and have the sin wiped away and thereby be freed to receive Holy Communion again even though his heart is closed to reconciliation with Carol.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[rainbow1]

I think you all know I was talking about someone who wants to get remarried, but boy we have to nit pick on here. Its all very easy to understand.

PR whatever I do I will let God be my judge,

and also I don’t believe like many Catholics, that there there is no salvation outside of the CC (Off Topic but in a way you brought it up).

Create another God = the CC is God,

which I don’t hold to.

Hi Luv,
Talking about salvation…I am really interested in the concept of bringing heaven down to earth…bringing goodness to this broken world…sort of is a type of early salvation, right? Something all of us can do with and for one another, despite religious orientation…and especially for those going through a divorce…
You have shared alot of your personal experiences and I thank you for doing so. I can tell from reading your posts that you went through alot, but still ended up very well grounded and have that peace of salvation while still here on earth. How did you get to that place in your journey? How did you find peace with our Lord…and let go of the pain? How did you get things resolved in your heart? Blessings…

 

[PRmerger]

Please see that this is exactly what I pray we can shine a light on. There seems to be an idea that John can commit the grave sin of abandoning Carol. He can then simply go to confession and have the sin wiped away and thereby be freed to receive Holy Communion again **even though his heart is closed to reconciliation **with Carol.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

No. If his heart is closed to reconciliation with* anyone*, then he has not repented.

And if he has not repented, he may not receive the 'Eucharist.

HOWEVER, reconciliation with a former spouse does not necessarily equate to “living as husband and wife” again.

 

[rainbow1]

Hello Evelyn,

I think we kind of agree here. I am not saying that reconciliation is always possible. If my wife hard-heartedly abandons and divorces me and then “comes to her senses” and truly repents then she would seek reconciliation with me in humility. She would recognize that she doesn’t “deserve” my forgiveness any more than she “deserves” God’s forgiveness.

I may choose to not imitate God’s forgiveness and choose not be open to reconciliation upon her true repentance. In this case, reconciliation is not possible for her. It is not possible because of my hard-heartedness… at the present time. Should she put a time limit on me? Does God put a time limit on us?

Do her vows she made to me become null and void?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

I so think reconciliation both ways is the ideal. However! There are times that emotionally some people really just can’t go there. There are many divorces that involve really horrible trauma…emotionally and/or physically. For example, I personally know of a wife that was dragged down a flight of stairs by her husband. Each time I saw the lady over a course of years, she still was visibly shaken and emotionally traumatized. In a situation like this, it would do the woman incredible harm to even talk to this man over the phone. So, although reconciliation between all people is the ideal, there are cases that it is not prudent. In some situations, I think it takes much prayer and talking to the Holy Spirit to discern what is the best route to take.
I am not sure anyone “deserves” forgiveness ever. That is a gift we can give one another freely, right? If I jump up and down and demand forgiveness, then surely what I get in return would most likely be a counterfeit to it…
As far as with you and your wife, I do hope that both of you get to a place where you both feel at peace with one another…that both of you understand and own your own mistakes in the marriage and that one day you both can talk openly about that and forgive one another… and that you don’t let the past become just more pain to carry into the future. Life is so beautiful!!!