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joanofarc2008
Guest
PM me if you need to or if you just want to.
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rainbow1
Guest
I completely understand your stance about needing some distance from your ex! I am glad you recognized that the contact was harming you ,so that you could take care of yourself.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I hope others can learn from vse’s strong example as well.
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rainbow1
Guest
Have you had a chance to talk with a nun or priest? After my husband had left, I talked to a nun a couple times, and her help was awesome…so much insight and spiritual support… I know personally how difficult it is to be married to someone who tears you up inside. It is not any picnic. Let us know on those tough days so we can all pray for you…blessings…
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rainbow1
Guest
I am glad you keep doing interesting stuff…on the tougher days, I pack up everything and get out of the house and do something to distract my mind…compartmentalize things a little once in awhile…set aside time for my brain NOT to think about marriage/divorce/annulment…just to do something fun and just to “be”…
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rainbow1
Guest
Everything is possible with God!
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mamaslo
Guest
eggzactally!
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rainbow1
Guest
:thumbsup:
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rainbow1
Guest
So today I have read another entry in the Bible Promises book by Calkin.
The piece of scripture is, No, O people, the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what her requires: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8
And the poem that went with it is:
Longing to Please You
With all my heart, Lord
I long to please You.
But too often I lack wisdom
Or am shackled by indecision
Or deterred by incalculables.
Enable me, Lord
To relax in Your love
Released and radiantly confident
That my longing to please You
Pleases You most.
I just love the line about being “released and radiantly confident”…
I am so praying for you folks this morning, that you will be released and radiantly confident…
The piece of scripture is, No, O people, the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what her requires: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8
And the poem that went with it is:
Longing to Please You
With all my heart, Lord
I long to please You.
But too often I lack wisdom
Or am shackled by indecision
Or deterred by incalculables.
Enable me, Lord
To relax in Your love
Released and radiantly confident
That my longing to please You
Pleases You most.
I just love the line about being “released and radiantly confident”…
I am so praying for you folks this morning, that you will be released and radiantly confident…
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mamaslo
Guest
rainbow, this reminds me of the thomas merton prayer, in essence it says “I don’t know which way I am going, but I only want to please you, and in that trying to please you it does in fact please you…”(paraphrased, I think). I used to have it in an older journal, but I stopped regularly doing that for a while. So my newer ones do not have all the prayers taped on the inside cover.
found it…
elise.com/quotes/a/thomas_merton_prayer.php
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rainbow1
Guest
That is such a beautiful prayer! Thank you so much!
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couponfit
Guest
Man cannot simply undo what God has done because you chose to ask for God to join your marriage.
In adultery, the woman or man must have intended to not maintain a life long permanent bond or remain faithful or to procreate and must have been deceptive, and the man must have taken action to dissolve the marriage. Part of marriage is there is a condition that both expect fidelity from the other. Infidelity does not remove this bond unless one party or the other did not intend to remain faithful at the time the vow was made.
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cviolette
Guest
Thank you. I will probably PM when I am further in the process. Right now I am focused on getting a job ( I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years) then I need to discuss my problems with my husband and get him to go to marriage counseling. I was told that marriage counseling will help us learn how to communicate during and after the divorce. That I need to prepare my husband for divorce or his reaction could be devastating for me and the kids. I am not good at confrontation and my husband ties me in knots when I try to talk so I have a lot of work to do.
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FCGeorge
Guest
Hello Joanofarc,
Sorry, I am just catching up on posts here. This one was from a while back and referred to St. Monica being an example for us. I don’t think that St. Monica “looked to martyr herself.” I believe that she found herself in a very difficult marriage and simply desired to honor her vows and imitate her Lord.
Those of us who are abandoned certainly did not or do not “look to martyr ourselves.” Remaining faithful to our vows and our spouses even when they do not remain faithful to us is not “looking to martyr ourselves.” It is simply recognizing, "Hey, my Lord, Jesus Christ, loves me this way. He forgives me whenever I choose to repent. And when *I *repent and seek reconciliation with Him, He is always willing to welcome the prodigal me into a loving embrace. I don’t believe that the spouse who chooses to imitate this love and forgiveness for her spouse is “looking to martyr herself.”
Rather, she is looking, like St. Monica did, to honor her vows and imitate her Lord, Jesus Christ. Sadly, the martyrdom that results is often times very painful. But, as St. Mother Teresa said, … “In light of heaven, the worst suffering on earth, a life full of the most atrocious tortures on earth, will be seen to be no more serious than one night in an inconvenient hotel.”
Now, if you want to try to say, “Hey, that St. Monica, you know, God would have allowed her into Heaven even if she had told her husband to go take a leap off one of those Medjera mountains. Even if she had told her husband that she been mentally abused by him for too long and is not going to take it any more. Even if she had said that she was going to seek an annulment based on the fact that she was young and imature and she never really even chose that husband anyway. She gave him 3 years and 3 months and 3 days and he never changed. That is all the time she needed to give him, that was more than enough.”
If you want to say that St. Monica could have said (felt in her heart and then acted on it) all that and ended up in Heaven then you are welcome to say it. I cannot prove otherwise. I can only tell you that she didn’t and is now in Heaven. This is what she told others…
*When her circle of friends asked her how she lived with such an excitable man and not be battered, Monica replied that there were two things necessary for domestic peace: firstly, she recalled the matrimonial contract which they agreed to; secondly, she counseled silence when the husband was in a bad mood. Augustine adds that those women who took her advice found peace and better treatment from their husbands. *
Interestingly, it was a “stinging rebuke” (reminds me of St. Peter at Pentecost) that “cut to the heart” of Monica causing her to see the need to repent of her own sin…
*Augustine gives only one incident from her youth, obviously relayed to him by Monica herself, of how she was in danger of becoming a wine bibber, but was corrected when her secret sips in the wine cellar were discovered and a maid, in a moment of anger, called her a “drunkard.” This stinging rebuke prompted her to change her behavior and develop perseverence. Perhaps this is why recovering alcoholics are among the many groups who intercede to Saint Monica. *
What if that maid would have bought into the “false charity” of today? No stinging rebuke, no repentance, perhaps no St. Monica, then likely no St. Augustine… whoa.
Those who are “putting away” their spouses in their hearts, claiming to no longer be married to them, civilly divorcing for reasons that are not morally licit (the vast majority of civil divorces) need a “stinging rebuke.” Sometimes it needs to come from the lowly housekeeper.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I did not say she looked to martyr herself. She expressed heroic virtue - due to the historical context of the time that she was living in this was not martyrdom. However, trying to express this type of heroic virtue today could lead to soft martyrdom. Trying to force this type of heroic virtue on someone is no where in Church teaching, in Scriptural teaching, and is irresponsible.
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bre
Guest
Lord, hear our prayers
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FCGeorge
Guest
Hello Father NE, hope you are well.
Are you saying that the Canon law we are talking about tells us that the Catholic Church teaches us that the true follower of Christ will/can tell his adulterous wife, “Hey, you committed adultery against me. Therefore I will NEVER forgive you with a Christ-like forgiveness that is open to reconciliation upon your true repentance!”
If you are, then when can the husband do this?
After his wife looks lustfully at another man? (For Jesus tells us this is adultery)
After his wife has an emotional adulterous affair?
After his wife is seduced one night after drinking too much and commits adultery one time although she never intends to do it again?
After his wife is caught in a month long adulterous relationship? Year long?
Does it just depend on the husband’s heart? God’s Truth here therefore varies depending on how much the husband’s heart can take.
Is it something like, “Hey man, you really should *consider *taking her back, but, you know, if your feelings were hurt too much and if you have prayed about it and talked it through with your counselor then it is okay if you don’t.”
It seems that *if *canon law were to insert the following words then I would have to agree with your interpretation…
Hermas wrote:
“I charge you,” said he, “to guard your chastity, and let no thought
enter your heart of another man’s wife, or of fornication, or of
similar iniquities; for by doing this you commit a great sin. But if
you always remember your own wife, you will never sin. For if this
thought enter your heart, then you will sin; and if, in like manner,
you think other wicked thoughts, you commit sin. For this thought is
great sin in a servant of God. But if any one commit this wicked
deed, he works death for himself.
Attend, therefore, and refrain from this thought; for where purity
dwells, there iniquity ought not to enter the heart of a righteous
man.” I said to him, “Sir, permit me to ask you a few questions.”
“Say on,” said he. And I said to him, “Sir, if any one has a wife who
trusts in the Lord, and if he detect her in adultery, does the man sin
if he continue to live with her?”
And he said to me, “As long as he remains ignorant of her sin, the
husband commits no transgression in living with her. But if the
husband know that his wife has gone astray, and if the woman does
not repent, but persists in her fornication, and yet the husband
continues to live with her, he also is guilty of her crime, and a sharer
in her adultery.” And I said to him, “What then, sir, is the husband to
do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?” And he said, “The
husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put
his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery.”
And I said to him, “What if the woman put away should repent, and
wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her
husband?” And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought
to take back the sinner who has repented…In this matter man and
woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. –The Shepherd 4:1-10
Although, Father, I really am open to you finding some teaching from early Church Fathers or any Pope that says, “Hey, you do not sin if you refuse to take back the adulterous wife who has repented.”
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Are you saying that the Canon law we are talking about tells us that the Catholic Church teaches us that the true follower of Christ will/can tell his adulterous wife, “Hey, you committed adultery against me. Therefore I will NEVER forgive you with a Christ-like forgiveness that is open to reconciliation upon your true repentance!”
If you are, then when can the husband do this?
After his wife looks lustfully at another man? (For Jesus tells us this is adultery)
After his wife has an emotional adulterous affair?
After his wife is seduced one night after drinking too much and commits adultery one time although she never intends to do it again?
After his wife is caught in a month long adulterous relationship? Year long?
Does it just depend on the husband’s heart? God’s Truth here therefore varies depending on how much the husband’s heart can take.
Is it something like, “Hey man, you really should *consider *taking her back, but, you know, if your feelings were hurt too much and if you have prayed about it and talked it through with your counselor then it is okay if you don’t.”
It seems that *if *canon law were to insert the following words then I would have to agree with your interpretation…
But, until then, I will stick with what Hermas said about forgiveness in this situation. Writing not all that long after our Blessed Lord walked this earth (and long before we started to accept this watered down version of the wine of Christ-like forgiveness)…
Hermas wrote:
“I charge you,” said he, “to guard your chastity, and let no thought
enter your heart of another man’s wife, or of fornication, or of
similar iniquities; for by doing this you commit a great sin. But if
you always remember your own wife, you will never sin. For if this
thought enter your heart, then you will sin; and if, in like manner,
you think other wicked thoughts, you commit sin. For this thought is
great sin in a servant of God. But if any one commit this wicked
deed, he works death for himself.
Attend, therefore, and refrain from this thought; for where purity
dwells, there iniquity ought not to enter the heart of a righteous
man.” I said to him, “Sir, permit me to ask you a few questions.”
“Say on,” said he. And I said to him, “Sir, if any one has a wife who
trusts in the Lord, and if he detect her in adultery, does the man sin
if he continue to live with her?”
And he said to me, “As long as he remains ignorant of her sin, the
husband commits no transgression in living with her. But if the
husband know that his wife has gone astray, and if the woman does
not repent, but persists in her fornication, and yet the husband
continues to live with her, he also is guilty of her crime, and a sharer
in her adultery.” And I said to him, “What then, sir, is the husband to
do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?” And he said, “The
husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put
his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery.”
And I said to him, “What if the woman put away should repent, and
wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her
husband?” And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought
to take back the sinner who has repented…In this matter man and
woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. –The Shepherd 4:1-10
Although, Father, I really am open to you finding some teaching from early Church Fathers or any Pope that says, “Hey, you do not sin if you refuse to take back the adulterous wife who has repented.”
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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FCGeorge
Guest
First, we must acknowledge that this is a very, very rare thing to find… especially when biological mother and father are home.
Although… if the shepherds of the Catholic Church continue to refuse to defend marriage against divorce and the tribunals continue to hand out declarations of nullity like candy on Halloween then we will continue to have more and more stepparent households… which are more likely to fit your example…
*A study by two Canadian professors of psychology found that when all the variables of class and maternal age are accounted for, “preschoolers in stepparent-natural parent homes . . . are estimated to be 40 times as likely to become abuse statistics as like-aged children living with two natural parents.”
…They put it this way: “Having a step-parent has turned out to be the most powerful epidemiological risk factor for severe child maltreatment yet discovered.” Indeed, they claim that the risk of child abuse and child murder is 100 times greater in a step-parent family than in a genetic family.*
But, let’s take your example. Let’s say that Jack and Jill are validly married and it is discovered that Jack sexually molested their daughter one night after drinking too much.
Of course, Jill needs to get her and her daughter out of the home immediately. Does this sin separate what God joined? No. Jill is still Jack’s wife. Jill is still to love Jack as Christ loves the sinner who falls away from Him. I can’t imagine how difficult this would be. Jill couldn’t do it on her own. But, fortunately she wouldn’t have to… Christ will through her. For it is no longer Jill living, but Christ living through her.
Perhaps Jack would be truly repentant. If he is then I can’t imagine on him insisting that Jill take him back into the home. For he would understand the damage. His humility would likely be one sign of his true repentance. I can’t imagine Jill taking him back while any children are still living with her. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen but Jack would have to gradually earn that trust back baby step by baby step.
Jill’s heart, like Christ’s, is not concerned about herself. Rather, she is concerned for her daughter. For her daughter’s sake, not her own sake, she is keeping the repentant sinner away from the home.
I realize that this is radical. Christ’s love for us is radical. Our love for our spouse is to be radical. It is hard to imagine a more heinous crime than this. But think about it. Add up all of the sins you and I have committed against Him. Now, compare that stack of sins… probably rising taller than the highest mountain… and think of how disgusting that pile of sin is compared to the Perfection that is Christ. And He is always willing to forgive us no matter how high that mountain rises.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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joanofarc2008
Guest
There are so many assumptions in here - the first being that parents are incapable of molesting their own children that I am not even touching it. Bryan I really implore you to sit down with a spiritual director and show him these threads. I say this out of great charity and love.
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rainbow1
Guest
I am thinking it might be helpful for us to focus now on our own lives and our own real life examples. It doesn’t seem to help to think up theoretical situations, although I sure have done enough of that on this thread! 
! I think it is risky business to take pieces of Scripture or saints lives and randomly apply them to a theoretical person or another person. Even knowing all the pieces of my own marriage to the best of my own ability, it is very difficult to compare it completely to any of the saints lives to obtain direction, although I do read the saints lives regularly for inspiration. It is one of my favorite past times. I think that discernment needs to happen by praying directly to God with Scripture in hand, praying to the saints, and seeking out holy friends to seek cousel from, including priests, nuns, and dear friends in Christ. God teaches us what He wants us to know if we sit quietly and listen. Each of our lives is uniques and special, and God has special plans for each of us. Even if we mistake God’s guidance, the good thing, actually the great thing, is that God is going to help us to turn around and take the road he intended. And sometimes the roads he asks us to go on are surely not the roads we would have taken without hearing His voice…He knows if we are of good will…He knows if we want to please Him…He is our Loving Parent…We do not need to fear…we can hang onto the Good Lord with the confidence of a little child, knowing that He is going to make every single thing ok…He is going to wipe every single tear off of our faces…
Bryan, do you feel comfortable sharing your story so that the folks on the thread can understand you as a person better? Blessings…
! I think it is risky business to take pieces of Scripture or saints lives and randomly apply them to a theoretical person or another person. Even knowing all the pieces of my own marriage to the best of my own ability, it is very difficult to compare it completely to any of the saints lives to obtain direction, although I do read the saints lives regularly for inspiration. It is one of my favorite past times. I think that discernment needs to happen by praying directly to God with Scripture in hand, praying to the saints, and seeking out holy friends to seek cousel from, including priests, nuns, and dear friends in Christ. God teaches us what He wants us to know if we sit quietly and listen. Each of our lives is uniques and special, and God has special plans for each of us. Even if we mistake God’s guidance, the good thing, actually the great thing, is that God is going to help us to turn around and take the road he intended. And sometimes the roads he asks us to go on are surely not the roads we would have taken without hearing His voice…He knows if we are of good will…He knows if we want to please Him…He is our Loving Parent…We do not need to fear…we can hang onto the Good Lord with the confidence of a little child, knowing that He is going to make every single thing ok…He is going to wipe every single tear off of our faces…Bryan, do you feel comfortable sharing your story so that the folks on the thread can understand you as a person better? Blessings…
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