Divorce

[TryingToLearn]

I agree, the 98% of “sexually active U.S. Catholic Women” seems unrealistically high. I’ll trust your analysis as I don’t have time to dig into the study. Whether it is 50% of “sexually active Catholic women” or 60% or 89% or 98%, it is WAY too many.

A better statistic that is relevant is probably that 100% of Catholics are sinners. Some may be on the road to recovery. But, unfortunately it’s one of the attributes we all inherited from Adam & Eve…

And, based on my own story and the stories of many other strong Catholics I have come to know, I’d say that while regular preaching on the finer points of morality and conscience is important, the common ailment that we all suffer from, that is part and core of our concupiscence is the conceit that Satan used on Adam and Eve; the conceit that we can be like God and know right from wrong well enough to write the rules…

I can’t think of a single strong Catholic I hasn’t told me a similar story, that once they truly recognized that flaw in themselves and really accepted God’s Authority as Truth they had far less need for someone preaching to them, they actively sought to know God better and to learn how to please (and avoid displeasing) Him. Of course, that makes us receptive to the preaching from our shepherd’s, but it also suggests that fighting the war on the front of individual moral teachings may not be the strongest approach. You can fight a diversionary battle there, but you ultimately have to get around that and strike at the heart where we reject God’s Authority extending to all areas of our lives and we deny our complete and total dependence on Him and need for His laws to guide us to being able to actually enjoy the gifts He gives us…

I mean, look at this thread. It’s not like people coming in here aren’t aware of what the Church teaches about marriage, divorce, contraception, or any of other countless areas. Most of the posts I read criticizing Church teaching on marriage and divorce quite simply reject the Church’s and thus God’s Authority and set themselves up as co-equals in certain areas of writing God’s law…

Undoubtedly, every parish and every diocese has areas that are taught regularly and with conviction and other areas that might fall short by our individual assessment. But, it seems to me the war is won or lost on the ground of pride vs. humbly recognizing the Authority of God and His Church…

 

[joanofarc2008]

A better statistic that is relevant is probably that 100% of Catholics are sinners. Some may be on the road to recovery. But, unfortunately it’s one of the attributes we all inherited from Adam & Eve…

 

[mamaslo]

I have been thinking about what Mamaslo had said several posts back about how music gives her a way to express her deep feelings. Years ago I participated in a divorce support group, and the leader of the group would put together a cd for each member with songs about losing a relationship that reminded him of each of the member’s situations. I was wondering if any of you have had a special song that helps put into words the feelings that you have had during the divorce/ annulment experience? Or maybe a song that helps pull you through?
Blessings to all…

I actually just really like music and hate associating the heartache for anything to it. I can listen and hear someone else’s hurt, but I do write my own lyrics and poetry. I hope to write something universally understood about our experiences but I am passionate about music and really am not that person who would like a cd of music that reminds someone of me. OH does that and often I wonder “why?”.

Probably a lot of that is because of how I am a musician and artist and songwriter (near future I hope). I can empathise with others like Chris Thile who went through a divorce and wrote about it, he plays mandolin and generally folky type music but often plays with very good classical musicians like Edgar Meyer and Yo Yo Ma.

I felt sad for his pain.

I must not be alone in what I am going through. Often folks who are in marriages go through what I have in my weird situation. Where the spouse is just mean and enduring that. Maybe even when they start acting nice and you start to let the defenses finally rest a bit, but then you wonder if it is real or if it will rear its ugly head.

Music is powerful. We proclaim the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation every Sunday as a message of hope. “Bless the Lord, who heals the Broken Hearted”…

 

[FCGeorge]

How do you know they sit comfortably? Sin of pride. Not all shepherds have been silent on this issue and most have not been. Again sin of pride? Your priest from what you have said seems to going against his own promises of obedience to his Bishop.

Hello Joanofarc. The sin of pride is definitely one I still struggle with. For the life of me, however, I do not know why. I have so little to be prideful of.

A priest is not to be “obedient to his bishop” when his bishop is not being obedient to the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Here is a very sad example. The priests in the Albany diocese, I pray, are not obediently following bishop Hubbard’s lead. Note the difference between bishop Hubbard and Archbishop Nienstedt of Saint Paul/Minneapolis…
Albany Bishop Hubbard to celebrate Mass for dissident homosexual group
by Kathleen Gilbert
lifesitenews.com/news/albany-bishop-hubbard-to-celebrate-mass-for-dissident-homosexual-group

ALBANY, New York, July 28, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The bishop of Albany has agreed to celebrate Mass for a conference held by a dissident Catholic gay rights group in the city this fall.
Thomas Peters of Catholic Vote reported Wednesday that Bishop Howard Hubbard was slated to say a Saturday vigil Mass for a September conference by the Catholic Association for Lesbian & Gay Ministry (CALGM).
The conference, “Setting the Table for LGBT People in a Diverse Church,” includes gay rights speakers such as Rev. Bob Pierson, OSB and United Church of Christ priestess Rev. Vicki Wunsch.
Peters points out that Archbishop John Nienstedt of Saint Paul/Minneapolis had barred CALGM from meeting within his diocese.
“Bishop Hubbard turns 75 in a little over two years, but he seems intent on continuing to inflict pastoral damage on his diocese until he retires,” wrote Peters.

St Francis says regardless even if a priest is the worst kind of sinner we are still to kiss the hands of the one that consecrates the Eucharist. I wonder if you can extend yourself to listen to all the Saints or only those that agree with you.

I pray for the humility to listen to them all. They found that narrow door I seek.

Speaking of St. Francis of Assisi (my patron Saint), this one is from him… "We should all realize that no matter where or how a man dies, if he is in the state of mortal sin and does not repent, when he could have done so and did not, the Devil tears his soul from his body with such anguish and distress that only a person who has experienced it can appreciate it."

When you so brazenly question the Magisterium of the Church who is your guide?

Again, I pray you will point to clear teaching from the Magisterium (Popes and bishops in Communion with them) that contradicts anything I have tried to say. If I have then I definitely need to correct it.

However saying that some marriages end in divorce is just basic fact it is not anything to against Church teaching.

Joanofarc, please, I pray of you, a civil divorce does not end a marriage. A marriage does not end in a civil divorce. We must, as faithful Catholics, stop giving the impression that civil divorce has this power.

A civil divorce has absolutely -0- power over what God joins. Our Church teaches that a civil divorce does not turn a husband into an “ex-husband” or a wife into an “ex-wife.” A civil divorce does *not *free persons from a valid marriage before God. If it did “free persons” then the next “marriage” would not be adultery.
From the Glossary of our Catechism…
DIVORCE: The claim that the indissoluble marriage bond validly entered into between a man and a woman is broken. A civil dissolution of the marriage contract (divorce) does not free persons from a valid marriage before God; remarriage would not be morally licit (2382; cf. 1650).

Maybe you are referring to invalid “marriages”??

If two people are involved in an adulterous remarriage and finally see the Truth that they need to cease the adulterous relationship then the civil divorce is not what “ends the marriage.” For there never was a true marriage to end. God did not join the two into one flesh. True repentance including the separation of the two is what ends the adulterous relationship.

Also, the first gay couple to ever get civilly “married” in the U.S. filed for divorce 2 years after they were civilly “married.” Their “marriage” never “ended in divorce” because they were never truly married.
totaldivorce.com/news/articles/society/first-gay-couple-married-file-for-divorce.aspx

Sure, to the world, those are both marriages that ended in divorce. But not to the faithful Catholic.

I hope it does not come across as “pride-filled” to shout this out. There are so many things I have to learn. I listen to old recordings of the late (and probably Saint) AB Fulton Sheen and I can’t help but see that!

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[rainbow1]

Bryan…I am thinking that you are having confusion with the terminology that the Catholic faith uses, being you come from the Baptist faith. If you read the earlier posts, some of that will clear up your misconceptions, and your confusion about the terminology. Most of the posters on this thread agree with you that a civil divorce does not change how the Church sees the “status” of a marriage…hence why there is the annulment process…to determine whether God actually did join the couple together or not. But the Church does recognize civil divorce as a necessary process at times for legal protection. Let’s not get caught up on terminology.’
In other words there would be several scenarios …

1- if God joined the couple together…civil divorce…annulment process…marriage found valid…Church requires celibacy
2-if God did not join the couple together…civil divorce…annulment process…marriage found null…Church allows future marriage in most cases
3-if God joined the couple together…civil divorce…no annulment…Church requires celibacy
4-if God did not join the couple together…civil divorce…no annulment…Church requires celibacy
5-if God joined the couple together…no civil divorce…no annulment process…hopefully a God- filled relationship
6-if God did not join couple together…no civil divorce…no annulment process…God help them.

Some posters on this thread believe…
1- exactly what the Church states and trusts in the Church’s annulment process to accurately determine whether a marriage was null or valid, and follow Church recommendations
2- think that the Church does not always accurately determine whether a marriage was null or valid, but trust that the Church is doing the best it can in difficult situations, and with discernment on top of the annulment process, they feel comfortable with their own decision to follow the Church’s recommendations
3-think that the Church process is rarely effective and decide to not go through with the process, but stay in the Church and recieve the Eucharist despite the Church’s stance for them not to when they remarry
4-think that the Church process is rarely effective and decide to not go through with the process, but stay in the Church and do not receive the Eucharist and not participate in ministry when they remarry
5-think that the Church process is effective but don’t do it due to other personal issues, and when remarry do not receive the Eucharist and don’t participate in the ministry
6-think that the Church process is effective but don’t do it due to other personal issues , remarry, and receive the Eucharist despite the Church’s stance
7- don’t believe that it matters if the marriage was valid or not, and think it is ok to remarry no matter what
8-don’t think the annulment process is important but do it anyway to avoid hassles with the Church about Communion
9-opt to live celibate lifestyle and not worry about any of it
10- sit and worry about it for years and don’t accomplish much of anything…
These are all I can think of, but there are probably lots more.

Have any of you folks seen the movie Fireproof? Great movie…

 

[styrgwillidar]

2-if God did not join the couple together…civil divorce…annulment process…marriage found null…Church allows future marriage in most cases

I just wanted to emphasize this point. An annulment does not necessarily free one or both parties to remarry. In fact, it can include a determination that one or both parties can not be married in the Church or set conditions which must be fulfilled before another attempt at a valid marriage can be made.

I know someone who’s first marriage was determined to be invalid and was declared null. The determination was based on that person having a mental condition. They were prohibited from being married in the Church, unless they received treatment, provided evidence they had overcome it and submitted to examination by people appointed by the Church to verify their issues had been addressed.

As I understand it, the Church may prohibit a future marriage at all, due to the findings during the annulment process that a person is incapable of a sacramental marriage.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I just wanted to emphasize this point. An annulment does not necessarily free one or both parties to remarry. In fact, it can include a determination that one or both parties can not be married in the Church or set conditions which must be fulfilled before another attempt at a valid marriage can be made.

I know someone who’s first marriage was determined to be invalid and was declared null. The determination was based on that person having a mental condition. They were prohibited from being married in the Church, unless they received treatment, provided evidence they had overcome it and submitted to examination by people appointed by the Church to verify their issues had been addressed.

As I understand it, the Church may prohibit a future marriage at all, due to the findings during the annulment process that a person is incapable of a sacramental marriage.

I requested that the Tribunal please discern this in my xh’s case when they asked if I had anything to add. I think the woman taking my testimony was rather taken aback. But I told her that I had found that he had a history of trying to use relationship, the Church, and attempted marriage to injure women and I almost did not go through with the process to keep him from doing it in the Church again. It was because of the above that I felt comfortable putting this in the Church’s hands and moving forward.

 

[rainbow1]

I just wanted to emphasize this point. An annulment does not necessarily free one or both parties to remarry. In fact, it can include a determination that one or both parties can not be married in the Church or set conditions which must be fulfilled before another attempt at a valid marriage can be made.

I know someone who’s first marriage was determined to be invalid and was declared null. The determination was based on that person having a mental condition. They were prohibited from being married in the Church, unless they received treatment, provided evidence they had overcome it and submitted to examination by people appointed by the Church to verify their issues had been addressed.

As I understand it, the Church may prohibit a future marriage at all, due to the findings during the annulment process that a person is incapable of a sacramental marriage.

Well, this sure has given me food for thought this morning. I am wondering what the statistics actually are. I just wrote “most” because I thought that to be accurate, but maybe it isn’t.
This whole topic is very interesting to me and I am curious to find out more about it. I am wondering if the Church has its own mental health providers that do reassessments of all the mental health diagnoses. It seems like this would be very important. And the interesting thing is that in alot of the cases, I bet only one party is asking for the annulment, so a huge amount of information would not be obtainable. If the Church is not doing its own assessments, I see all sorts of possible problems arising. I have seen in my own community, mental health assessments being made that were way off target due to the secular thinking mentality. Or the results being purposely skewed to serve whoever was in power, whoever could pull the strings better, whoever had a louder voice. or more money… Another thing that is interesting is that if even a Catholic therapist were to do the assessments, there are other issues that would come to the forefront. For example, if both members of a couple were required to have mental health assessments before remarriage were permitted, then it only seems fair that all people seeking a first marriage would also be given assessments. And then what would the criteria be for saying who and who could not be marriageable? If a person has a personality disorder, does the Church have the right to say the person can’t get married? Personality disorders likely would not change even with longterm mental health care. Who would make the judgements? A large board of people or a few? Would it be based on only testing (what about people who can’t read well or understand well?) Or would there be decisions made on impressions? Would we be setting ourselves up to have a Church that is only available to the “privileged” and not to the minorities or poor or people without a voice? When I was thinking about this, what kept coming to mind was how Hitler had defined people due to their genetic makeup. Mental health issues are often genetically based…I’m just sayin’
I get pretty confused about how this all happens when we believe that marriage is between the couple and God and not the couple and God and the Church…

 

[rainbow1]

I requested that the Tribunal please discern this in my xh’s case when they asked if I had anything to add. I think the woman taking my testimony was rather taken aback. But I told her that I had found that he had a history of trying to use relationship, the Church, and attempted marriage to injure women and I almost did not go through with the process to keep him from doing it in the Church again. It was because of the above that I felt comfortable putting this in the Church’s hands and moving forward.

I bet the woman taking your testimony realized that she might end up putting her own life in danger …if a declaration would be made against your ex remarrying… will be interesting to see how they handle that…

 

[joanofarc2008]

I bet the woman taking your testimony realized that she might end up putting her own life in danger …if a declaration would be made against your ex remarrying… will be interesting to see how they handle that…

I hadn’t really looked at it that way.

 

[mamaslo]

I wonder if dysthymia can prevent a person from truly being married. Or maybe the right person would be able to help heal that with lots of TLC. It takes a lot of humility to help that much.

We are all from fallen ancestry, prone to illness of all kinds, so I wonder what would the Church consider to mentally ill to marry. Some cases would be obvious but others…?

I wonder if there is some kind of list of qualifications.

 

[rainbow1]

I wonder if dysthymia can prevent a person from truly being married. Or maybe the right person would be able to help heal that with lots of TLC. It takes a lot of humility to help that much.

We are all from fallen ancestry, prone to illness of all kinds, so I wonder what would the Church consider to mentally ill to marry. Some cases would be obvious but others…?

I wonder if there is some kind of list of qualifications.

Nope… I can NOT imagine that dysthymia could ever be considered anything to prevent a person from being married… Yes, lots of things can help with that…lots of TLC…
I imagine sociopaths might not be able to marry…you know, people going around murdering without remorse… far cry from dysthymia…
I would like to see the Church’s criteria on this stuff…

 

[mamaslo]

Nope… I can NOT imagine that dysthymia could ever be considered anything to prevent a person from being married… Yes, lots of things can help with that…lots of TLC…
I imagine sociopaths might not be able to marry…you know, people going around murdering without remorse… far cry from dysthymia…
I would like to see the Church’s criteria on this stuff…

often there are people on here and other places who talk about narcissism…you talked about how your husband’s depression tore him up and away. Others here have talked about bipolar.

maybe just like each of us is from the same original mold but are all a bit different. Maybe the list is a general guide and each person is just unique enough to warrant individual criteria.

rainbow i bet you are a good friend to people. You sound like you have a heart big enough to have helped your ex with lots of TLC if he had been able to let you.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

often there are people on here and other places who talk about narcissism…you talked about how your husband’s depression tore him up and away. Others here have talked about bipolar.

maybe just like each of us is from the same original mold but are all a bit different. Maybe the list is a general guide and each person is just unique enough to warrant individual criteria.

rainbow i bet you are a good friend to people. You sound like you have a heart big enough to have helped your ex with lots of TLC if he had been able to let you.

As nice as any of us can be, we cannot heal another person’s wounds. We sometimes believe that we can, but it is hubris, pride, arrogance. Only God can do that. No matter how much you love a person who is wounded, you cannot heal those wounds because you did not create them. And the people who created the wounds usually cannot heal them, unless they are truly repentant, etc. The Great Physician, Jesus, is He whom we should turn to for healing. Likewise, no one else can heal our wounds, and putting someone in the place of God is idolatry.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Well, this sure has given me food for thought this morning. I am wondering what the statistics actually are. I just wrote “most” because I thought that to be accurate, but maybe it isn’t.
This whole topic is very interesting to me and I am curious to find out more about it. I am wondering if the Church has its own mental health providers that do reassessments of all the mental health diagnoses. It seems like this would be very important. And the interesting thing is that in alot of the cases, I bet only one party is asking for the annulment, so a huge amount of information would not be obtainable. If the Church is not doing its own assessments, I see all sorts of possible problems arising. I have seen in my own community, mental health assessments being made that were way off target due to the secular thinking mentality. Or the results being purposely skewed to serve whoever was in power, whoever could pull the strings better, whoever had a louder voice. or more money… Another thing that is interesting is that if even a Catholic therapist were to do the assessments, there are other issues that would come to the forefront. For example, if both members of a couple were required to have mental health assessments before remarriage were permitted, then it only seems fair that all people seeking a first marriage would also be given assessments. And then what would the criteria be for saying who and who could not be marriageable? If a person has a personality disorder, does the Church have the right to say the person can’t get married? Personality disorders likely would not change even with longterm mental health care. Who would make the judgements? A large board of people or a few? Would it be based on only testing (what about people who can’t read well or understand well?) Or would there be decisions made on impressions? Would we be setting ourselves up to have a Church that is only available to the “privileged” and not to the minorities or poor or people without a voice? When I was thinking about this, what kept coming to mind was how Hitler had defined people due to their genetic makeup. Mental health issues are often genetically based…I’m just sayin’
I get pretty confused about how this all happens when we believe that marriage is between the couple and God and not the couple and God and the Church…

Well, I think that the marriage preparation classes were in response to some of these concerns. The Church realizing too many couples were not really taking the time/making the effort at discernment. And then of course, marriage encounter and Retrovaille also being responses to helping those who may not have properly prepared for marriage.

 

[mamaslo]

As nice as any of us can be, we cannot heal another person’s wounds. We sometimes believe that we can, but it is hubris, pride, arrogance. Only God can do that. No matter how much you love a person who is wounded, you cannot heal those wounds because you did not create them. And the people who created the wounds usually cannot heal them, unless they are truly repentant, etc. The Great Physician, Jesus, is He whom we should turn to for healing. Likewise, no one else can heal our wounds, and putting someone in the place of God is idolatry.

But isn’t Jesus truly present in a marriage that is a true marriage? If that person is filled with grace, that can facilitate the healing that Jesus can do. Pope JP2 said in his book “Love and Responsibility” that when a couple joins, God reaches down at that very moment and joins with them…a person who you are married to is responsible for your soul. If you are in need of healing…you are called to facilitate that healing.

 

[mamaslo]

Well, I think that the marriage preparation classes were in response to some of these concerns. The Church realizing too many couples were not really taking the time/making the effort at discernment. And then of course, marriage encounter and Retrovaille also being responses to helping those who may not have properly prepared for marriage.

Macdonald’s window service in 3 minutes or less…that is the mentality of people. That is also why they get so upset when it takes the Church 40 years to make a decision.

I never heard of discernment when I tried to marry. I just said “yes” and in fact I never had permission to.

One thing anyone can take from painstakingly learning a skill or a craft or an art…is that the time it takes to learn skillfully, craftily, and artfully is worth the patience it takes to get there.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Macdonald’s window service in 3 minutes or less…that is the mentality of people. That is also why they get so upset when it takes the Church 40 years to make a decision.

I never heard of discernment when I tried to marry. I just said “yes” and in fact I never had permission to.

One thing anyone can take from painstakingly learning a skill or a craft or an art…is that the time it takes to learn skillfully, craftily, and artfully is worth the patience it takes to get there.

Yeah, I never heard the term discernment applied to marriage either, and since there’s a higher rate of divorce in second marriages I’m not in a huge hurry to jump in and make the same mistakes over again even assuming I could get an annulment. There’s a lot of folk wisdom out there (and probably some proverbs too if I would check).

-Haste makes waste.
-Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
-Act in haste, repent at leisure.
-Easier to learn from another’s mistakes then make them yourself.
-Those who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

 

[rainbow1]

often there are people on here and other places who talk about narcissism…you talked about how your husband’s depression tore him up and away. Others here have talked about bipolar.

maybe just like each of us is from the same original mold but are all a bit different. Maybe the list is a general guide and each person is just unique enough to warrant individual criteria.

rainbow i bet you are a good friend to people. You sound like you have a heart big enough to have helped your ex with lots of TLC if he had been able to let you.

Awww…that is kind of you…but the reality is, although I am tenderhearted, I sure made my own share of the misery and mistakes…sometimes I get so sad about the whole thing, but then I have to make myself realize that God in His amazingness, always does give us rebirth…this is the basis of our faith…(I think I am getting a little melancholy with StVal.day coming up)…

I bet you are right that the Church looks at each person with individual criteria. The idea behind diagnoses are to help professionals to communicate with one another, not to label or brand people…people can change…even people with quite serious mental illness…and I am hoping the Church takes all that into consideration…

I do think that a loving relationship can overcome much …two people really looking out for one another can help out on every level…when their primary love is the Lord…

 

[rainbow1]

Yeah, I never heard the term discernment applied to marriage either, and since there’s a higher rate of divorce in second marriages I’m not in a huge hurry to jump in and make the same mistakes over again even assuming I could get an annulment. There’s a lot of folk wisdom out there (and probably some proverbs too if I would check).

-Haste makes waste.
-Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
-Act in haste, repent at leisure.
-Easier to learn from another’s mistakes then make them yourself.
-Those who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Yes, I think discernment is so important…listening to God’s will…really important concept…opening one’s heart in prayer…praying with a partner for discernment of God’s will for the relationship…
I am wondering if Catholic second marriages fare better than in the secular world…especially after annulments…I bet the rates are alot different…