Divorce

[mamaslo]

Awww…that is kind of you…but the reality is, although I am tenderhearted, I sure made my own share of the misery and mistakes…sometimes I get so sad about the whole thing, but then I have to make myself realize that God in His amazingness, always does give us rebirth…this is the basis of our faith…(I think I am getting a little melancholy with StVal.day coming up)…

I bet you are right that the Church looks at each person with individual criteria. The idea behind diagnoses are to help professionals to communicate with one another, not to label or brand people…people can change…even people with quite serious mental illness…and I am hoping the Church takes all that into consideration…

I do think that a loving relationship can overcome much …two people really looking out for one another can help out on every level…when their primary love is the Lord…

I think healing comes from God through different venues. If you are learning to become who He created you to be and recieve affirmation through doing those things, it is possible to walk in some kind of healing. Others are part of the body of Christ too and can assist Him. Our own sinfulness separates us from His body, and the body helps welcome us back into communion when we confess to the head.

Can you guys tell I am philosophical today?

 

[rainbow1]

I think healing comes from God through different venues. If you are learning to become who He created you to be and recieve affirmation through doing those things, it is possible to walk in some kind of healing. Others are part of the body of Christ too and can assist Him. Our own sinfulness separates us from His body, and the body helps welcome us back into communion when we confess to the head.

Can you guys tell I am philosophical today?

Yes, loving it!
Your music must be fantastical!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

But isn’t Jesus truly present in a marriage that is a true marriage? If that person is filled with grace, that can facilitate the healing that Jesus can do. Pope JP2 said in his book “Love and Responsibility” that when a couple joins, God reaches down at that very moment and joins with them…a person who you are married to is responsible for your soul. If you are in need of healing…you are called to facilitate that healing.

Yes, that is true, but we are just channels that God can use to heal His other children. I know that I have struggled with the idea that I can love my husband enough to “fix” him, to fill him with love so that he will see Jesus through me. And the idea that we can heal a person with depression, or other mental illness, just through our tender, loving care, struck an “off note” with me.

I do think that if both parties are looking at Jesus for their guidance, healing can be increased or sped up.

 

[rainbow1]

Yes, but a loving environment sure can help healing and a hate-filled environment sure can harm things…
I had a Christian professor years ago who was talking about co-dependency…and he said that actually some of what is termed “codependency” can be looked at as part of the Christian walk. We definately don’t want to enable people who have addictions, etc…but still, love does require a great deal of patience and suffering… this is not to say that one ought to feel responsible for someone elses mental illness…

 

[mamaslo]

Yes, that is true, but we are just channels that God can use to heal His other children. I know that I have struggled with the idea that I can love my husband enough to “fix” him, to fill him with love so that he will see Jesus through me. And the idea that we can heal a person with depression, or other mental illness, just through our tender, loving care, struck an “off note” with me.

I do think that if both parties are looking at Jesus for their guidance, healing can be increased or sped up.

I don’t believe I said anything about fixing anyone. Don’t be fooled into thinking your loving your husband that much doesn’t aid in his healing. It gives him someone with skin on to trust that love exists and opens the door for more. Yes, of course, God is the healer, you are the created person, but you are part of that healing, even if you never see it. That is faith and love…not a resounding cymbal…noise. Too much noise in this world of fakers. If you truly love your husband, God is love…you open the door to facilitate success. If you never had someone to talk to how would you know how to talk?

 

[EvelynEVF]

Whew! Past 800! I’m not getting notifications, which might be a good thing, or we’d be even longer

I did ask once, and was told that it was incredibly, incredibly rare that a tribunal would ever 100% forbid a person from attempting marriage again, because it is almost impossible to predict that a person would not be able to overcome the internal impediment. Hence the requirement for extensive counseling.

I wish love could fix messed up people. That’s why i stuck around so long; I figured if I could just do the elusive Right Thing, that everything would be okay. Epic Fail.

 

[mamaslo]

Whew! Past 800! I’m not getting notifications, which might be a good thing, or we’d be even longer

I did ask once, and was told that it was incredibly, incredibly rare that a tribunal would ever 100% forbid a person from attempting marriage again, because it is almost impossible to predict that a person would not be able to overcome the internal impediment. Hence the requirement for extensive counseling.

I wish love could fix messed up people. That’s why i stuck around so long; I figured if I could just do the elusive Right Thing, that everything would be okay. Epic Fail.

It wasn’t your love that was at fault then. I guess my impression was that there was at least community already. I still say, don’t think it didn’t help that person in some way. It’s not your fault if the other person cannot recieve love. But at least he knew love even if he didn’t understand it.

I am sorry for your pain.

 

[cviolette]

Yes, I think discernment is so important…listening to God’s will…really important concept…opening one’s heart in prayer…praying with a partner for discernment of God’s will for the relationship…
I am wondering if Catholic second marriages fare better than in the secular world…especially after annulments…I bet the rates are alot different…

I wonder about that too. I would think it would depend on the reasons for the annulment and did you learn why your marriage failed and took ownership of your part of the failure.

For example, in my case I was too young and did not have God in my life. I had no idea what a good marriage looked like. I went into marriage looking for the opposite of my father. I just knew what didn’t work. I had no clue what was important. Just what was wrong.

If I do get a second chance, I would not even consider dating someone that didn’t put God first. That didn’t have a daily prayer life. I feel strongly if we both allow God in our marriage that is the only way that I could be happily married. How can someone understand how to truly love someone without out Jesus begin the center of their life?

I also never heard of discerning marriage. I would spend many hours before the Blessed Sacrament asking God before remarrying.

 

[cviolette]

Whew! Past 800! I’m not getting notifications, which might be a good thing, or we’d be even longer

I did ask once, and was told that it was incredibly, incredibly rare that a tribunal would ever 100% forbid a person from attempting marriage again, because it is almost impossible to predict that a person would not be able to overcome the internal impediment. Hence the requirement for extensive counseling.

I wish love could fix messed up people. That’s why i stuck around so long; I figured if I could just do the elusive Right Thing, that everything would be okay. Epic Fail.

I also wondered if the tribunal would ever forbid someone from marrying again. My past is pretty messed up and do have many issues from past abuses. I do fear that they would add to my annulment that I couldn’t marry again.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t believe I said anything about fixing anyone. Don’t be fooled into thinking your loving your husband that much doesn’t aid in his healing. It gives him someone with skin on to trust that love exists and opens the door for more. Yes, of course, God is the healer, you are the created person, but you are part of that healing, even if you never see it. That is faith and love…not a resounding cymbal…noise. Too much noise in this world of fakers. If you truly love your husband, God is love…you open the door to facilitate success. If you never had someone to talk to how would you know how to talk?

No, you didn’t say anything about fixing, I did. It is a very fine line for me to walk - to love my husband without becoming a type of martyr. I do truly love him and wish nothing more than that he would experience the love of God through Christ. I worry about his death - he doesn’t believe in mortal sin and I couldn’t tell you how long it’s been since he went to confession. He receives the Eucharist yet I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe the Creed any more. So I do worry. But enough about me, I don’t want to hijack the thread.

 

[mamaslo]

No, you didn’t say anything about fixing, I did. It is a very fine line for me to walk - to love my husband without becoming a type of martyr. I do truly love him and wish nothing more than that he would experience the love of God through Christ. I worry about his death - he doesn’t believe in mortal sin and I couldn’t tell you how long it’s been since he went to confession. He receives the Eucharist yet I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe the Creed any more. So I do worry. But enough about me, I don’t want to hijack the thread.

There is probably some kind of balance. He is falling and it is hard to watch. You keep yourself healthy, and pray. (I sprinkle holy water with a prayer where he sleeps, puts his shoes on, etc). He still has free will. He may be sinking into depression. You cannot fix that either. I don’t know the answer and I don’t think love makes you a martyr…If someone doesn’t want to be lifted, you know they weigh a lot more. Keep God first. It sounds like I am saying two things but you love him by doing what you do to help the home run well. If you still have kids at home…you help in what they need help…you buy him underwear…you are the smile he needs when he walks in the door. then he knows he is in a peaceful place. Pray for the light to come on.

What I was thinking about, I guess, was someone like me who does want help and love. But not on sinful terms. I don’t know if I am able to be a wife. But i still want love. It doesn’t have to be married love it can be friendship. To reach out and they take your hand. (I told you I was being philosophical )

I will stop for now too. But I couldn’t let that go without some encouragement, lady.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Whew! Past 800! I’m not getting notifications, which might be a good thing, or we’d be even longer

I did ask once, and was told that it was incredibly, incredibly rare that a tribunal would ever 100% forbid a person from attempting marriage again, because it is almost impossible to predict that a person would not be able to overcome the internal impediment. Hence the requirement for extensive counseling.

I wish love could fix messed up people. That’s why i stuck around so long; I figured if I could just do the elusive Right Thing, that everything would be okay. Epic Fail.

No, an epic fail is not even making the attempt. Looking back when you’re 80 wishing there was something you had done that you didn’t do. When you’re 80 you can rest easy, you did the best you could with what you knew at the time. When my my 11/12 year old son told me he felt like he had failed his mom, because he just couldn’t keep going to her home for her, I printed and posted this quote on his door:

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt

 

[rainbow1]

There is probably some kind of balance. He is falling and it is hard to watch. You keep yourself healthy, and pray. (I sprinkle holy water with a prayer where he sleeps, puts his shoes on, etc). He still has free will. He may be sinking into depression. You cannot fix that either. I don’t know the answer and I don’t think love makes you a martyr…If someone doesn’t want to be lifted, you know they weigh a lot more. Keep God first. It sounds like I am saying two things but you love him by doing what you do to help the home run well. If you still have kids at home…you help in what they need help…you buy him underwear…you are the smile he needs when he walks in the door. then he knows he is in a peaceful place. Pray for the light to come on.

What I was thinking about, I guess, was someone like me who does want help and love. But not on sinful terms. I don’t know if I am able to be a wife. But i still want love. It doesn’t have to be married love it can be friendship. To reach out and they take your hand. (I told you I was being philosophical )

I will stop for now too. But I couldn’t let that go without some encouragement, lady.

Friendship can be ohhhhh, so sweet!!! And it is found in the most unlikely places sometimes…
While I was in a lonely marriage and during the divorce, I found great happiness in befriending some people who are elderly…
And now, one of my very closest friends is a 97 year old lady…she is such a wise soul…every single day she is alive is a great day!!! For her …and for me too!!!
By the way, love that philosophical stuff you got goin’ on today!

 

[rainbow1]

No, an epic fail is not even making the attempt. Looking back when you’re 80 wishing there was something you had done that you didn’t do. When you’re 80 you can rest easy, you did the best you could with what you knew at the time. When my my 11/12 year old son told me he felt like he had failed his mom, because he just couldn’t keep going to her home for her, I printed and posted this quote on his door:

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt

LOVE IT!

 

[FCGeorge]

Bryan…I am thinking that you are having confusion with the terminology that the Catholic faith uses, being you come from the Baptist faith. If you read the earlier posts, some of that will clear up your misconceptions, and your confusion about the terminology. Most of the posters on this thread agree with you that a civil divorce does not change how the Church sees the “status” of a marriage…hence why there is the annulment process…to determine whether God actually did join the couple together or not. But the Church does recognize civil divorce as a necessary process at times for legal protection. Let’s not get caught up on terminology.’

Hello rainbow, hope you are well. I’m sure there is a lot of terminology that is confusing to me still.

I hope we would both agree that our choice of words matters. When we Catholics who are civilly divorced use the words, “ex-husband” or “ex-wife” then what do you suppose that promotes? Does it promote the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage?

When Dan Marino retired from the Miami Dolphins after the 1999 season he became the “ex quarterback” of the Miami Dolphins. He was no longer their QB.

A civil divorce from a marriage does not make me an “ex-husband.” The civil divorce has no power over what God joins. Even after a civil divorce I am still a “husband” not an “ex-husband.”

Why do we insist on using terms that give people the impression that a civil divorce has a power that it really does not have?

Is it too much to ask to, in the name of Truth, say, “My wife who has civilly divorced me.”

Do you think that I am “confused” over this? If I am misunderstanding Church teaching on this then please point it out.

On a quick read I didn’t disagree with any of your points or situations there. I hope earlier posts didn’t come across as though I did.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[joanofarc2008]

Whew! Past 800! I’m not getting notifications, which might be a good thing, or we’d be even longer

I did ask once, and was told that it was incredibly, incredibly rare that a tribunal would ever 100% forbid a person from attempting marriage again, because it is almost impossible to predict that a person would not be able to overcome the internal impediment. Hence the requirement for extensive counseling.

I wish love could fix messed up people. That’s why i stuck around so long; I figured if I could just do the elusive Right Thing, that everything would be okay. Epic Fail.

Love the Epic Fail portion of this post. I would be happy with couples counseling and mental health counseling for his actual disorder as part of his requirements in order to be married again. In a case like that the woman would have a better idea of what she was taking on. The first jealous rage or death threat may not comes as such a shock or sense of responsibility.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Hello rainbow, hope you are well. I’m sure there is a lot of terminology that is confusing to me still.

I hope we would both agree that our choice of words matters. When we Catholics who are civilly divorced use the words, “ex-husband” or “ex-wife” then what do you suppose that promotes? Does it promote the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage?

When Dan Marino retired from the Miami Dolphins after the 1999 season he became the “ex quarterback” of the Miami Dolphins. He was no longer their QB.

A civil divorce from a marriage does not make me an “ex-husband.” The civil divorce has no power over what God joins. Even after a civil divorce I am still a “husband” not an “ex-husband.”

Why do we insist on using terms that give people the impression that a civil divorce has a power that it really does not have?

Is it too much to ask to, in the name of Truth, say, “My wife who has civilly divorced me.”

Do you think that I am “confused” over this? If I am misunderstanding Church teaching on this then please point it out.

On a quick read I didn’t disagree with any of your points or situations there. I hope earlier posts didn’t come across as though I did.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

She is your ex-wife. She has made a decision with or without your permission to break the natural marriage while the Sacramental may or may not be valid. It is simply your decision whether or not you wish to look into that fact and discover if the marriage was valid or was not. In other words if the marriage had a Sacramental nature to it or did not. What your actions do not change this. Yes, it is that simple.

If the Sacrament does exist then she has made the statement either sinfully or wrongfully or rightfully we cannot know that she has felt the need to dissolve the civil aspect of the marriage. So yes for civil and language purposes she is your ex-wife. How you live counts for a lot more than terminology.

 

[rainbow1]

Brayan…How 'bout you call the mother of your children, “my wife who civilly divorced me” and I call the biological father of my children “my ex-husband who probably never was my husband so how could he be an ex-husband?” …and leave it at that?
You must really love her to want to call her that…
Blessings, a-

 

[joanofarc2008]

Brayan…How 'bout you call the mother of your children, “my wife who civilly divorced me” and I call the biological father of my children “my ex-husband who probably never was my husband so how could he be an ex-husband?” …and leave it at that?
You must really love her to want to call her that…
Blessings, a-

Rainbow - you are so charitable - I find ex-husband to be one of the nicer things I still call him despite the level of forgiveness - but I think sometimes forgiveness is relative to the day and the mood.

 

[rainbow1]

Yeah, I never heard the term discernment applied to marriage either, and since there’s a higher rate of divorce in second marriages I’m not in a huge hurry to jump in and make the same mistakes over again even assuming I could get an annulment. There’s a lot of folk wisdom out there (and probably some proverbs too if I would check).

-Haste makes waste.
-Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
-Act in haste, repent at leisure.
-Easier to learn from another’s mistakes then make them yourself.
-Those who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

I think you probably would make the exact same mistakes all over again (seems to be what us humans do)…but in a sacramental marriage the two of you would work through it and help each other grow from the mistakes…
Success story…a friend of mine went through a divorce (he was married over 20 years) and he was telling me all sorts of things about himself…and another friend of mine’s husband committed suicide and she was telling me all sorts of things about herself… and then over time it started to sound like stereo in my ears and they were both telling me the same things…and so I gave the guy the girls email…and now they are happily married…the odd thing is…the guy’s spiritual director had been the woman’s spiritual director many years previous to then in a different city…he married them…sweet endings are possible…