Divorce

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Bryan,
You say you love the Church. My definition of love includes truth.
Was your exwife encouraged to leave your marriage by a priest? What did your exwife tell him were the reasons she left?
Is this what is fueling your anger towards the entirety of the priesthood and tribunals? Do you see yourself as having “little or no recourse”? Do you believe a priest is responsible for breaking your marriage apart? Do you believe a priest is at fault for your living alone?
The way I see it is that a divorce is merely a formal legal action that describes the culmination of what has already been going on in the marriage for quite a long time in most cases. How could you blame a priest for a divorce? If you and your ex wife couldn’t prevent your own marriage from falling apart, then believe me, no priest could. A priest sure can’t go into court and tell a court judge not to issue a divorce. And he sure isn’t going to go to your ex wife’s lover’s house and ask them to please stop … He can preach about the sanctity of marriage, and that is exactly what goes on in Catholic churches across the entire world. The marital responsibility falls on the marriage couples shoulders…yours and your ex wife’s…and noone else. You and your ex wife created this marriage with God, and you and your ex wife messed up your relationship…not the priest. Do not place power where power is not. I encourage you to go to counseling and get some help understanding your role vs your ex wife’s role in your marriage falling apart. Once you understand that and confess that you will recieve the peace you are missing. Hopefully you will also learn what you are responsible for and what you are not responsible for . Going to confession*** after ***counseling will hopefully help you to leave the past behind and move forward in peace. You will no longer have to blame it all on your ex wife, or on some poor priest who can’t logically be expected to heal what you and your wife have broken. You are responsible for your sin. Your exwife is responsible for her own sin. The priest is responsible for his own personal sin.
Most priests do the very best they can to help people find peace and healing. This is the TRUTH. The tribunals work hard to do the best they can for people in very difficult situations. But you are responsible for finding your own salvation with the merciful help of our Lord. And your exwife is responsible for finding her way, with again the help of the Lord. Don’t give your power away. And don’t take power away from your ex wife to make her own decisions…
The fact that you have been grossly misrepresenting the priesthood and the tribunals is very dangerous to many readers on this thread who have suffered abuse within their marriage. Lies hurt people. You have a responsibility to find out about the new faith you are in before you try to represent it. If you are not able to trust this faith community, then maybe you need to find a different one, although the Catholic Church holds the fullness of Truth you won’t find elsewhere.
Many readers of this thread needed a divorce and have heavily relied on their priests to help them find safety…physically and emotionally. Your gross incorrect exagerrations and misrepresentations of the intentions of priests and of the tribunals can harm people who finally have just begun to find peace in their own lives and who are learning to trust once again.
If you personally have had an experience with a particular priest who you perceive as having caused you harm, then please state so. But please do not continue to bash priests or tribunals in general.
I recommend that you start focusing on your own skull, rather than on the skulls of our holy priests.
 
joanofarc2008 said:
Good song - 901 and counting.
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Morning folks! 902 here!
I love this song. One time, after a particularly difficult confession in which I discussed my marriage, this song came on the radio right after I got in the car. I so know that God was wrapping me in His love and giving me comfort. I will never forget the kindness and patience the priest showed me at such a pivotol moment. It was a great day of rebirth. I think it is interesting to look back at the flow of my confessions during the predivorce time. At first, I really focused on my part of the mess, and claimed my sins. As time went on, I realized that some of my sinfulness was really not even the things I would have called sins to begin with…more like not taking care of myself, not putting myself in a good spiritual environment…etc…the switch in this, I think, paralleled my healing.
At any rate, this song helped me heal in amazing ways. I think it is exactly how God feels towards us. He is bidding us to come and talk with Him…be who we really are around Him…tell Him our truths despite what they are…accept His unconditional Love for us. Accepting His unfathomable Love while discounting the little voice in our own heads that says “not worthy” is sometimes the hardest and most beautiful thing to do…
Blessings to all on this beautiful morning!
 
rainbow1 said:
Morning folks! 902 here!
I love this song. One time, after a particularly difficult confession in which I discussed my marriage, this song came on the radio right after I got in the car. I so know that God was wrapping me in His love and giving me comfort. I will never forget the kindness and patience the priest showed me at such a pivotol moment. It was a great day of rebirth. I think it is interesting to look back at the flow of my confessions during the predivorce time. At first, I really focused on my part of the mess, and claimed my sins. As time went on, I realized that some of my sinfulness was really not even the things I would have called sins to begin with…more like not taking care of myself, not putting myself in a good spiritual environment…etc…the switch in this, I think, paralleled my healing.
At any rate, this song helped me heal in amazing ways. I think it is exactly how God feels towards us. He is bidding us to come and talk with Him…be who we really are around Him…tell Him our truths despite what they are…accept His unconditional Love for us. Accepting His unfathomable Love while discounting the little voice in our own heads that says “not worthy” is sometimes the hardest and most beautiful thing to do…
Blessings to all on this beautiful morning!
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You know it is funny - Almost a year after the actual divorce and well over a year since the separation my priest has given me interesting penance - to own my pain. I guess I have been dealing with everything day to day and trying to survive that there have only been little cracks. Owning my pain and really letting that out anywhere but counseling has not really been an option. just one of those interesting things I thought of as you posted.
 
Hello Rainbow, I hope you are well.

There is so much in your last post that needs addressed, I don’t even know where to begin.

Let me seek to understand some things first…

Do you believe that it is a grave sin to abandon your spouse when your spouse has not been guilty of anything close to what our Catechism and Canon law provide for as morally licit reasons for separation?

What does the third step listed in Matthew 18:15-17 look like to you? Perhaps apply it to a real life situation when you could see yourself actually trying to help a sister or brother in Christ out by following our Blessed Lord’s step by step instructions there.

Who is the first Christian to use the term “ex-spouse” when teaching that civil divorce has the power to make someone an “ex-spouse?” Where is this in official Church teaching? Why would you choose to continue to use it… especially when trying to “help” someone whom you know recognizes that civil divorce has no power to make someone an “ex-spouse.”

Rainbow, do you believe that priests and bishops have been made “watchmen?” If so, can you understand after reading the following scripture why we who truly love them would encourage them to boldly preach the Truth about abortion, contraception and, yes, even divorce?

Ezekiel 33:7 “So you, son of man, I have made a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Let’s take an example of someone who uses contraception after sitting in pews Sunday after Sunday and never hearing a single word preached about the gravity of the sin of contraception.

The priest will be held accountable for the “blood” but that doesn’t remove the guilt from the man and woman who committed the act. Their ignorance is most likely not “invincible” ignorance because they could have known the Truth if they loved the Truth enough to seek It. They could have spent 2 hours on the internet and found the Church’s teaching. I realize that this is not the case everywhere in the world. Perhaps there is invincible ignorance some places on this, but not too many in the U.S.

So it is with divorce. The spouse who sits in the pew and never hears a single message about divorce being a “grave immoral offense” and connecting it with what true repentance from this sin looks like is not therefore made innocent of the grave immoral offense. That spouse is guilty of the grave sin but the priest is also held accountable for the “blood.”

Again, this sin may be manifested in a civil divorce, just as the act of lusting after someone who is not my wife may be manifested in a sexual act, however, the sin of divorce occurs when I claim, in my heart, to no longer be married to the one to who God joined me. Just as the sin of adultery occurs in my heart when I lust after someone who is not my wife. If I ran around calling myself an “ex-husband” then I would appear to be guilty of the sin of divorce although it could simply be due to a sincere ignorance of how the devil spreads his lies and my hard-hearted refusal to stop using the term.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Do you believe that it is a grave sin to abandon your spouse when your spouse has not been guilty of anything close to what our Catechism and Canon law provide for as morally licit reasons for separation?
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Right now the only one we have to take the word of that you were an innocent spouse is you and from your behavior here which has shown some large gaping issues I think that you were probably less innocent than you have really taken a look at. God bless you but at this point I think you need to realize that the marriage had broken down long before you probably ever tried to get a priest involved. You need to take some responsibility for that and quit blaming everyone else on here for your marriage not making it. At this point you are not sure if your marriage was a Sacramental marriage blessed by God or not. I am sorry to be so blunt but you have been pretty blunt with the rest of us. Why don’t you find out and then discern whether or not your divorce was the right thing for everyone involved. It will help you sort out what happened and where things went wrong.
 
Hello Joanofarc,

It seems like we are angry with each other on here. I am sorry if I have hurt you in any way. I do not know your situation completely and have obviously never talked to your husband. From the little I know it sounds like you have a just cause to remain separated… but I am definitely not the judge of that and don’t want to pretend to be. I just don’t want you to think that I believe I know you are sinning by remaining separate.

Sometimes it is not loving your spouse to simply allow them to reconcile when there is no true repentance. It sounds like your situation may be one of those cases, but again, I do not pretend to have enough information or knowledge to know. I pray for you and your family and I hope that you will also pray for mine.

Anyway, I apologize again if I have hurt you.

God bless you Joanofarc, again, you are in my prayers.

Bryan
 
FCGeorge said:
Hello Joanofarc,

It seems like we are angry with each other on here. I am sorry if I have hurt you in any way. I do not know your situation completely and have obviously never talked to your husband. From the little I know it sounds like you have a just cause to remain separated… but I am definitely not the judge of that and don’t want to pretend to be. I just don’t want you to think that I believe I know you are sinning by remaining separate.

Sometimes it is not loving your spouse to simply allow them to reconcile when there is no true repentance. It sounds like your situation may be one of those cases, but again, I do not pretend to have enough information or knowledge to know. I pray for you and your family and I hope that you will also pray for mine.

Anyway, I apologize again if I have hurt you.

God bless you Joanofarc, again, you are in my prayers.

Bryan
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The fact that you would even think it is your business to speak to my ex-husband who has already been described as abusive on this very thread shows that you have your own mental issues. You are not the judge of anyone. You say you do not have enough information or knowledge to know but in general you blame the Bride of Christ for all cases. You make absolutely sense and either come off as taking no responsibility for your own actions, having a psyhological condition, or worse. These can all be things that would have contributed to a break down of a marriage and yes, may have given her cause to leave. Not to say the adultery was correct but you really need to stop pointing fingers and look at your own actions in counseling.
 
Bryan has given some large blanket statements to try and get his general feelings across, which could come across as insulting to Catholics who have been divorced and who therefore feel invalidated and judged by him. I see Bryan’s difficulty in respecting the current establishments in the church today. We have all had direct experiences with people who have proven themselves less than worthy as priests and popes. I’ve had direct contact with several less than worthy popes. J/K. And take me, for instance. I’m a dodo who receives communion regularly. But, I will say that we must have faith that God is still working through the less-than-perfect, yet overall reasonable system, in ways that no one can understand. Hence, the living, breathing church is still alive to this very day, and is in fact, budding from the winter of a difficult 20th century of idiots. I urge you to respect the intricate and time-consuming decisions that have been made on annulments within the church, and to respect those who refer to their annulled (husbands?) as morphed X Men. Mine is quite like Wolverine, and unfortunately, I have always lamely been attracted to the rebel. 🤷 God still largely works within these weaknesses if we try to stay on track with Him and desire to do His will in whatever way we can understand. He is larger than our earthly institutions and labels. Peter somehow morphed into a rock. Sweet.

i am also trying to take into consideration that there are a lot of personal emotions behind each statement on this thread. We are loved dearly and must acknowledge we are His children.
 
😉

Just thought we needed to relax a little bit.
Uh! I’m sure there is some tearing apart to do on that post, but it’s time for a little giggle, I believe. I keep editing this, you know. Time to walk away from the computer.
 
Hello Joanofarc,

I pray you know that I have had no intention of ever speaking to your husband. The thought never even crossed my mind. Thank you for your concern for me. I appreciate your prayers. I am blessed with a very faithful priest whom God used as an instrument to bring me into the Holy Catholic Church. I get to talk with him frequently and have got to know even better while teaching one of our parish’s CCD classes the last couple of years. I am also blessed with a spiritual director who is a very holy man. He is from the Community of St. John which is over an hour away so I do not get to visit with him as often as I would like. Being around these men help to remind me how far I have to go. But it also reminds me our far our Lord can bring us!

Again, the Church, the Spotless and Holy Bride of Christ, is certainly not to blame for anybody’s divorce or any other sin. I pray I haven’t come across as believing that way. Sadly, however, there will be wolves amongst the shepherds of the Church.

St. Paul makes this clear. And note that he also believed the warning of the prophet Ezekiel and is only able to declare himself “pure from the blood of all men” because he did not fail to declare the Truth on “all the counsel of God.” This would include the hard teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.

Acts 20: 26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Notice that these men are “from your own selves.” They are from within the Church of the Living God.

There are many, many faithful and holy priests and bishops and I really believe that there is no greater love for our Lord than these men who give there lives to serve Him.

May God bless you Joanofarc

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Then if you have those people I would suggest again that you print out these threads and bring them in because I highly doubt the perception that you are giving them in your 1-2 hour session is what you are pulling on these threads especially since you are now cherry picking threads that are over two years old to point fingers and spread your judgemental opinions.
 
Why did I just post 906 and 907? They are ridiculous! I guess I’m just trying hard to sort out this current conversation and realize now I shouldn’t have stuck my nose in it. Is anyone else a bit lost? I’ve tried to go back through all your statements, FCGeorge, and I still remain confused. I think I should be moving on, now.
 
faithsmind said:
Why did I just post 906 and 907? They are ridiculous! I guess I’m just trying hard to sort out this current conversation and realize now I shouldn’t have stuck my nose in it. Is anyone else a bit lost? I’ve tried to go back through all your statements, FCGeorge, and I still remain confused. I think I should be moving on, now.
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I remain confused as well. Basically at this point what I have is that Bryan would rather blanket statement everyone else rather than take any personal responsibility. It is easier to have anger at the process than it is to actually do some self-searching and in that lash out at anyone else that may be healed through the process. It is abusive and wrong.
 
faithsmind said:
Why did I just post 906 and 907? They are ridiculous! I guess I’m just trying hard to sort out this current conversation and realize now I shouldn’t have stuck my nose in it. Is anyone else a bit lost? I’ve tried to go back through all your statements, FCGeorge, and I still remain confused. I think I should be moving on, now.
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I loved those two posts!😃 I thought they were a treaty for peace.
I am going to go to the mountains today and pray for everyone on this thread. I always find it interesting how the Lord listens so well to mountain prayers…I guess he pities some woman who stands on a mountain and shouts up at him…lol!!!
At any rate, I will be praying for everyone today!!! Blessings,peace, and love…
 
rainbow1 said:
I loved those two posts!😃 I thought they were a treaty for peace.
I am going to go to the mountains today and pray for everyone on this thread. I always find it interesting how the Lord listens so well to mountain prayers…I guess he pities some woman who stands on a mountain and shouts up at him…lol!!!
At any rate, I will be praying for everyone today!!! Blessings,peace, and love…
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Immediately after posting this, I read an email in my mailbox today from DivorcedCatholic.org and it mentioned a song called Before the Morning…by Josh Wilson…so I went to the Utube and it starts with a mountain scene…and a rainbow scence not that far behind…our Good Lord is so Good and pouring down blessings on this thread already, and I haven’t even left yet to go to the mountains…lol!!!
youtu.be/MniOtRnCO9I
 
Yeah, I’m wondering if I need to just let this thread go as well, There isn’t anything edifying happening that I can’t find on other threads.

Bryan, take this with a grain of salt, because obviously I don’t know you, but if I’m hearing you correctly, the gist of it is that you want to reunite, your wife or ex-wife does not, and you would like someone with Church authority to tell her she has to.

That isn’t going to happen without a huge interior change in her (for better or for worse), and I can only hope that you have not spent even a fraction of the time you’ve spent here, trying to persuade her, because that would cross the line into stalker territory and only push her further away. You’ve got to give her up into God’s hands. Really give her up. Pray for her, fervently, but leave the rest alone.

I wish you the best.
 
rainbow1 said:
Immediately after posting this, I read an email in my mailbox today from DivorcedCatholic.org and it mentioned a song called Before the Morning…by Josh Wilson…so I went to the Utube and it starts with a mountain scene…and a rainbow scence not that far behind…our Good Lord is so Good and pouring down blessings on this thread already, and I haven’t even left yet to go to the mountains…lol!!!
youtu.be/MniOtRnCO9I
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So after posting this, I decided to listen to the song again, and then I saw another utube advertised next to it, and decided to listen to it…yup, more mountains and more rainbows…gotta love Him!!! I think He is sending us all hope. Have a very blessed day all of you!
youtu.be/–3TEjU-mYI
 
I urge you to respect the intricate and time-consuming decisions that have been made on annulments within the church, and to respect those who refer to their annulled (husbands?) as morphed X Men.
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Good morning faithsmind, I hope you are well. Thanks, your posts did give me a little “giggle.”

I admittedly do have trouble respecting the American tribunals’ decisions that practically every marriage case they hear they rule that the two were never validly married. Especially in light of the fact that when the Roman Rota hears the second instance, their ruling is often just the opposite…

In an article entitled Rebutting a Rebuttal ( familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=64 ) the late (and hopefully saint!) Dr. Robert Vasoli cites a couple of studies that reveal the biases of the American tribunal system…

In the three-year period he chose, the Rota overturned nearly 80 percent of the American decrees of nullity it reviewed. He might also have looked into two surveys by American canonist William A. Varvaro, showing that during the 1980s the Rota, deliberating on U.S. annulments granted on psychological grounds, reversed over 90 percent of them. Incredibly, the Rota’s denial rate and the U.S. affirmative rate nearly matched.

This means that the American tribunal told two people “You were never married.” And then 80-90% of the time the Roman Rota told the same two people, “You were married and therefore still are married.”

If there are some specific “large blanket statements” that you find to be untrue or unfair or misleading or hurtful then please, I ask in all sincerity, point them out to me. We are held accountable for our words and I would appreciate the opportunity to correct or clarify any that need corrected or clarified.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
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