Divorced Catholics, LGBT ‘Embraced’ at First-in-Nation Synod in San Diego

  • Thread starter Thread starter Padres1969
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have no comprehension of what you are trying to say.

If you are trying to accuse this media of being biased, this interview was conducted by the official newspaper of the Diocese of San Diego, which you can find here: thesoutherncross.org
That is the point.

The original article was from a secular newspaper.

The diocesan newspaper is the more reliable source (by far) on what the Bishop actually said and meant.

When we say “the media” that term usually does not refer to diocesan newspapers (although the word fits by definition).
 
That is the point.

The original article was from a secular newspaper.

The diocesan newspaper is the more reliable source (by far) on what the Bishop actually said and meant.

When we say “the media” that term usually does not refer to diocesan newspapers (although the word fits by definition).
Problem is you’re equating two different interviews that the 3 different papers are referring to as the same interview. They’re not. I suggest reading the San Diego Union Tribune article posted earlier. Even a well known conservative Catholic source had some issue with what the Bishop was saying in the interview/statements that the UT and Times of San Diego were referencing.

Now the Bishop may have corrected or clarified in his separate interview with the diocesan paper, but this isn’t some liberal conspiracy against him.
 
Problem is you’re equating two different interviews that the 3 different papers are referring to as the same interview. They’re not. I suggest reading the San Diego Union Tribune article posted earlier. Even a well known conservative Catholic source had some issue with what the Bishop was saying in the interview/statements that the UT and Times of San Diego were referencing.

Now the Bishop may have corrected or clarified in his separate interview with the diocesan paper, but this isn’t some liberal conspiracy against him.
No, I’m not equating anything.

I’m saying that when the source is the secular media, when we read disjointed sentences out of any context (which was in the OP), we cannot trust that those sentences accurately portray what the bishop was saying.

I’m also explaining that when people in the US speak about “the media” we are usually not referring to diocesan newspapers. I’m making that distinction.

I am also saying that when a bishop speaks about the faith, we should generally trust what he says. If something seems to be a bit off, we should look further into what he actually said and (if needed) give him the chance to explain his comments further. The diocesan newspaper is much more likely (by far) to present an honest account of the bishop’s comments; after all, he is the publisher.

For example, this one sentence was posted as an entire paragraph:

“The Catholic Church long has taught that you must follow your conscience, even if it is contrary to church teachings,” McElroy said.

Now that sentence, all by itself, makes things appear that the Bishop is telling people to follow their own consciences, and if ones conscience is in conflict with Church teaching, then follow the conscience and dismiss the teaching of the Church. That’s a pretty scathing characterization. His statements deserve more context. And, to put it mildly, given his office, and all that implies (education, expertise, experience, etc.) he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
 
“The Catholic Church long has taught that you must follow your conscience, even if it is contrary to church teachings,” McElroy said.

This statement is accurate. But, it is also accurate to state that there are (or should be) consequences for doing so. One can follow one’s conscience right out of the Church and into hell. This is the problem with the Bishop’s statement: he tells half the truth, and ignores the other half because it is disagreeable to him.

Here is an example. Suppose a man says: “My conscience tells me that the Church’s teaching that it is a sin to engage in drug trafficking is wrong, and so I intend to continue to engage in drug trafficking because I really enjoy the income that it generates for me.”

The Church will not force this man to disobey his conscience, however malformed it may be. And yet, by following his conscience the rejects the Church’s authority, engages in grave sin, and separates himself from God. By following his conscience, he condemns himself unless he repents.

What I am hearing from Cupich and McElroy - Pope Francis’ two most visible picks for bishop in the United States - seems to be the promotion of falsehood (perhaps unintentionally) by stating half-truths. Yes, a man must follow his conscience; however, when you couple that statement with the statement that the Church must “welcome” and “fully include” even the man who flatly rejects basic Church doctrine, you are on very rocky territory. Once you go there, then even the practicing Satanist must be welcomed and fully included. One follows from the other as sure as day follows night.

The reality is that there should be very real temporal, ecclesial consequences imposed so that the man understands the eternal danger to his soul that results from following his conscience in opposition to the teaching of the Church. There is ample Scripture and Tradition to support this, but I would recommend starting with the 5th Chapter of 2 Corinthians.
 
Yes, we agree, Don Ruggero. Luther was a heretic, but present day Lutherans are neither. CCC 181. Only a Catholic can be a heretic. Perhaps we should avoid hurting feelings by avoiding the term when discussing Luther with Lutherans.

Yet, the Catechism still defines heresy as a sin against unity and speaks of it as a present reality, not as something that occurred in the past but could never occur again. CCC 2089states: “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” This seems to occur all too frequently in the Church today. Are you saying we can’t use the terms “heresy” or “heretical” discuss this present-day reality?

I understand that we have different perspectives, but it is not out of bounds within the Catholic faith to use terms such as “heresy” or “heretical” in their proper context. These terms are not consigned to a former era, never to be uttered again by a faithful Catholic. They are perhaps more relevant than ever.
 
Thank you for showing the absurdity of such a position. Statements like that made by the bishop make absolutely no sense to me. It also doesn’t help that numerous priests and bishops have written articles over the past couple of years stating the exact opposite of the bishop, so many Catholics don’t know what to believe. If one’s conscience contradicts Church teaching, then perhaps one ought to reexamine one’s conscience because it is obviously malformed. If we are to obey our conscience over the Church, we are essentially putting ourselves before God. Because if the Church is teaching the teachings of God, then I would be obeying my own will rather than God’s will if it contradicts the Church. It just doesn’t make sense to advise such a course.
And is not the conscience the voice of God’s law? That it is so is Catholic teaching.
 
And is not the conscience the voice of God’s law? That it is so is Catholic teaching.
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
 
Yes, we agree, Don Ruggero. Luther was a heretic,
No. What we would be in agreement on is exactly what was proclaimed by the Holy See in 1983:

Martin Luther is a “Witness of Jesus Christ” and a “Witness of the Gospel” from the perspective and judgment of Rome in the 20th and the 21st century.

Since you are a faithful Catholic, I trust you are in complete and total to Pope Saint John Paul II on the conferral of those titles – and that in all things you completely submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter.
 
No. What we would be in agreement on is exactly what was proclaimed by the Holy See in 1983:

Martin Luther is a “Witness of Jesus Christ” and a “Witness of the Gospel” from the perspective and judgment of Rome in the 20th and the 21st century.

Since you are a faithful Catholic, I trust you are in complete and total to Pope Saint John Paul II on the conferral of those titles – and that in all things you completely submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter.
He also said the papacy was of the antichrist and advocated the slaughter of the Jews. I am going with “heretic.” If I am not mistaken, the excommunication has never been lifted - by St. John Paul II or any other pope. To say that Luther was not a heretic is to deny the truth. If Luther was not a heretic then there can never have been a heretic and there can never be one again. Again, perhaps we should avoid saying it in the presence of Lutherans to avoid hurt feelings.
 
Father, I am very confused by your last post. To me, and tell me if I am mistaken, you are glossing over how serious Martin Luther’s errors were and still are today, as well as how acerbic and incendiary his polemics against the Catholic Church were in the 16th century. Are you honestly saying that Luther was never a heretic at any time in his life? An accurate definition of a heretic was given above, and Luther meets the bill as he rejected several teachings of the Church after his baptism.

I do realize I can not know with certainty the state of his soul at his death, and if he rejected his errors, but can you not at least admit that at some point in his life, Luther espoused heretical teachings making him in fact, a heretic as according to the definition given by the Catholic Church?

If you would, Father, could you provide a link to this 1983 report? I believe that these titles of being a “witness” were indeed given to Luther… But is this an opinion or a binding judgement on the faithful akin to that of canonization? Because if it’s the latter, and it is binding, then why not just canonize Luther as a saint since he was a “witness of the Gospel”, just as men, for example, like St. Edmund Campion and St. John Fisher were?

I believe Luther was a “witness of Jesus Christ”… But was he a good one. I believe Luther was a “witness of the Gospel”… But was it the correct and true Gospel he was witnessing after 1517?

You mention, Father, that we should “submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter.” Does this apply only to 20th and 21st century Popes, or to all the successors of Peter? Does the “perspective and judgement” of the 20th and 21st centuries nullify the judgements given by the Holy See in prior centuries? There is a binding document by a 16th century Pope (as opposed to this 1983 document you speak of, which you haven’t shown is binding on the faithful) that clearly calls Luther out as a heretic. This comes from the Papal Bull “Exsurge Domine”, promulgated by Pope Leo X in 1520. Emphases mine:

"We beseech you also, Paul, to arise. It was you that enlightened and illuminated the Church by your doctrine and by a martyrdom like Peter’s. For now a new Porphyry rises who, as the old once wrongfully assailed the holy apostles, now assails the holy pontiffs, our predecessors.
"Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics ‘whose last defense,’ as Jerome says, ‘is to start spewing out a serpent’s venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished.’ For although you have said that there must be heresies to test the faithful, still they must be destroyed at their very birth by your intercession and help, so they do not grow or wax strong like your wolves. Finally, let the whole church of the saints and the rest of the universal church arise. Some, putting aside her true interpretation of Sacred Scripture, are blinded in mind by the father of lies. Wise in their own eyes, according to the ancient practice of heretics, they interpret these same Scriptures otherwise than the Holy Spirit demands, inspired only by their own sense of ambition, and for the sake of popular acclaim, as the Apostle declares. In fact, they twist and adulterate the Scriptures. As a result, according to Jerome, ‘It is no longer the Gospel of Christ, but a man’s, or what is worse, the devil’s.’

"As far as Martin himself is concerned, O good God, what have we overlooked or not done? What fatherly charity have we omitted that we might call him back from such errors? For after we had cited him, wishing to deal more kindly with him, we urged him through various conferences with our legate and through our personal letters to abandon his errors…

"Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures.

“Yet, with the advice of our brothers, imitating the mercy of almighty God who does not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he be converted and live, and forgetting all the injuries inflicted on us and the Apostolic See, we have decided to use all the compassion we are capable of. It is our hope, so far as in us lies, that he will experience a change of heart by taking the road of mildness we have proposed, return, and turn away from his errors. We will receive him kindly as the prodigal son returning to the embrace of the Church.”

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/L10EXDOM.HTM

The Successor of Peter, Servant of the Servants of God, Pope Leo X has directly called Martin Luther a “true heretic”. As you said, in “all things [do] you completely submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter”? Because Pope Leo’s words are clear here. Luther surely did some good things in his life, but are we really going to withhold from calling him a heretic and that he did not greatly damage the Church?
 
No. What we would be in agreement on is exactly what was proclaimed by the Holy See in 1983:

Martin Luther is a “Witness of Jesus Christ” and a “Witness of the Gospel” from the perspective and judgment of Rome in the 20th and the 21st century.

Since you are a faithful Catholic, I trust you are in complete and total to Pope Saint John Paul II on the conferral of those titles – and that in all things you completely submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter.
With all due respect, my thoughts are more aligned with those of Karl Keating, published this week on this very site, than with yours. See, catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/not-a-reformation-but-a-revolution.
 
Father, I am very confused by your last post. To me, and tell me if I am mistaken, you are glossing over how serious Martin Luther’s errors were and still are today, as well as how acerbic and incendiary his polemics against the Catholic Church were in the 16th century. Are you honestly saying that Luther was never a heretic at any time in his life? An accurate definition of a heretic was given above, and Luther meets the bill as he rejected several teachings of the Church after his baptism.

I do realize I can not know with certainty the state of his soul at his death, and if he rejected his errors, but can you not at least admit that at some point in his life, Luther espoused heretical teachings making him in fact, a heretic as according to the definition given by the Catholic Church?

If you would, Father, could you provide a link to this 1983 report? I believe that these titles of being a “witness” were indeed given to Luther… But is this an opinion or a binding judgement on the faithful akin to that of canonization? Because if it’s the latter, and it is binding, then why not just canonize Luther as a saint since he was a “witness of the Gospel”, just as men, for example, like St. Edmund Campion and St. John Fisher were?

I believe Luther was a “witness of Jesus Christ”… But was he a good one. I believe Luther was a “witness of the Gospel”… But was it the correct and true Gospel he was witnessing after 1517?

You mention, Father, that we should “submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter.” Does this apply only to 20th and 21st century Popes, or to all the successors of Peter? Does the “perspective and judgement” of the 20th and 21st centuries nullify the judgements given by the Holy See in prior centuries? There is a binding document by a 16th century Pope (as opposed to this 1983 document you speak of, which you haven’t shown is binding on the faithful) that clearly calls Luther out as a heretic. This comes from the Papal Bull “Exsurge Domine”, promulgated by Pope Leo X in 1520. Emphases mine:

"We beseech you also, Paul, to arise. It was you that enlightened and illuminated the Church by your doctrine and by a martyrdom like Peter’s. For now a new Porphyry rises who, as the old once wrongfully assailed the holy apostles, now assails the holy pontiffs, our predecessors.
"Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics ‘whose last defense,’ as Jerome says, ‘is to start spewing out a serpent’s venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished.’ For although you have said that there must be heresies to test the faithful, still they must be destroyed at their very birth by your intercession and help, so they do not grow or wax strong like your wolves. Finally, let the whole church of the saints and the rest of the universal church arise. Some, putting aside her true interpretation of Sacred Scripture, are blinded in mind by the father of lies. Wise in their own eyes, according to the ancient practice of heretics, they interpret these same Scriptures otherwise than the Holy Spirit demands, inspired only by their own sense of ambition, and for the sake of popular acclaim, as the Apostle declares. In fact, they twist and adulterate the Scriptures. As a result, according to Jerome, ‘It is no longer the Gospel of Christ, but a man’s, or what is worse, the devil’s.’

"As far as Martin himself is concerned, O good God, what have we overlooked or not done? What fatherly charity have we omitted that we might call him back from such errors? For after we had cited him, wishing to deal more kindly with him, we urged him through various conferences with our legate and through our personal letters to abandon his errors…

"Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures.

“Yet, with the advice of our brothers, imitating the mercy of almighty God who does not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he be converted and live, and forgetting all the injuries inflicted on us and the Apostolic See, we have decided to use all the compassion we are capable of. It is our hope, so far as in us lies, that he will experience a change of heart by taking the road of mildness we have proposed, return, and turn away from his errors. We will receive him kindly as the prodigal son returning to the embrace of the Church.”

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/L10EXDOM.HTM

The Successor of Peter, Servant of the Servants of God, Pope Leo X has directly called Martin Luther a “true heretic”. As you said, in “all things [do] you completely submit yourself to the superior knowledge and judgment of the Successor of Peter”? Because Pope Leo’s words are clear here. Luther surely did some good things in his life, but are we really going to withhold from calling him a heretic and that he did not greatly damage the Church?
To deny that Martin Luther was a heretic is to deny a historical fact and a theological reality. Luther clearly held and promoted heretical positions. He was also a schismatic. He was excommunicated and never recanted any of his heretical positions and never sought to be reconciled with the Church. He died excommunicated from the Church.

It should also be noted that the declarations and anathemas of the Council of Trent have never been revoked. The decrees of the Council of Trent are confirmed by both the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992).
 
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
The first two sentences of 1790 are plain and clear.
 
Why is there so much hatred and venom toward Luther on this forum? It is something I have seen in multiple threads. The Church is ready to move on, heal and work toward common purposes. Why do some Catholics insist on clinging to hard feelings instead?
 
Why is there so much hatred and venom toward Luther on this forum? It is something I have seen in multiple threads. The Church is ready to move on, heal and work toward common purposes. Why do some Catholics insist on clinging to hard feelings instead?
Some people just need an enemy I guess.
 
Why is there so much hatred and venom toward Luther on this forum? It is something I have seen in multiple threads. The Church is ready to move on, heal and work toward common purposes. Why do some Catholics insist on clinging to hard feelings instead?
Hard feelings? How about a clear and concise distinction between Truth and falsehood? Everything is so PC these days, it’s difficult to tell where the Truth ends and a lie begins. I’m all for embracing Lutherans - however, why not clearly state where the various Lutheran positions (there are multiple Lutheran groups that disagree on essential issues) fall short of Catholic truth?
 
Why is there so much hatred and venom toward Luther on this forum? It is something I have seen in multiple threads. The Church is ready to move on, heal and work toward common purposes. Why do some Catholics insist on clinging to hard feelings instead?
I don’t hate Luther, but I hate the Split to end all splits. In today’s world Luther would have been diagnosed with OCD. It wasn’t from malice he did these things, it was a compulsive neurotic fear that fed this terrible fate for our Church. I know because I myself have the disease. I feel this split constantly as my husband and all my family are still Protestant. A fire burns within me, if I go through this torment and torture, how much more so must our popes? I can only imagine. So who are we to disagree with Christ’s vicar on earth? Maybe he really does know best. 😉 If something goes against our faith, it is within our right to disagree. Church teaching says so. But nothing has been changed. Nothing Subtracted from or added to. We owe our Shepherd a chance, to prove he knows best for our Church in our times. If he crosses the line, then we reconsider. But no lines have been crossed. It’s just different than what we are used to. 🤷
 
If Luther were in heaven right now he would admit he was a staunch heretic and that his actions lead to countless division. He would want all his followers to become Catholics as soon as possible. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. To play Luther and the heretics(Arius, Jansen, ex.) as heroes is scandal and to “celebrate” their heretical actions is even worse.

It’s good to have dialogue with Protestants, come together to work for a common good (ex.against abortion & same sex marriage), and work for unity, but sometimes I think people cross the line.
 
If Luther were in heaven right now he would admit he was a staunch heretic and that his actions lead to countless division. He would want all his followers to become Catholics as soon as possible. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. To play Luther and the heretics(Arius, Jansen, ex.) as heroes is scandal and to “celebrate” their heretical actions is even worse.

It’s good to have dialogue with Protestants, come together to work for a common good (ex.against abortion & same sex marriage), and work for unity, but sometimes I think people cross the line.
Yes he would want people to be Catholic. That’s a given. Again it was most likely intense all-consuming fear and not malice that started all this. According to our current Catechism mental illness can greatly reduce or even diminish culpability. So there certainly is a good chance he made it after all. But certainly if he’s in heaven he’d be working to lead souls to the Catholic Church. Maybe this is his way of doing so? Making little steps towards full communion starting with those he led astray? Who knows. We won’t until the next life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top